Butch Witkowski/ Human Mutilations.

[Kieran]

Scary stuff indeed. It's very uncomfortable and disturbing thought. That there could be group our group's of Visitors/ non humans from somewhere removing humans from their normal environment. And, killing them. For parts of their physical body.It remains me of how we view certain animals and how we harvest them for food. There part of our diet. I hope that Isn't their agenda. In many ways the interview, kind of hinted at another agenda.

But for the live of me. I don't know why they would constantly need to abduct humans and other animals over a extended period of time. Why return the body.When you hear things of this nature. You would hope there is something, be it a friendly race of visitors fighting this crowd off.

Our that our Governments are aware of it. And, doing everything" that is possible to prevent it. The worse case scenario is that they are allowing it to happen, they are just ignore it and hopes it stop's, since they can't do anything to prevent it anyway.

If some group that are humans carried out those experiments on those humans. It would not too far removed from a possibility. It just the methods, the ability,the technology has no reference point to public mainstream science of today

It really shows that the phenomenon has a ugly side and is far from benevolent.

Disclosure came up. It's obvious. With you hear information of this nature. The fallacies of such proclamations.

As a side note. David said there seemed to a be a difference between New Yorkers and the rest of the country. I've noticed there is a difference in attitude and New Yorkers are more straightforward and have less time for bullshit. I've travelled to New York, California and Texas in the past. I've relatives living in long Island New York. New York was mainly during the 1800's and early 1900's full of Irish, Italians, Germans and Eastern Europeans and many people of the black colour. Who where brought over as slaves by the British, French and other European states. The influence of those cultures have shaped America. Time has eroded many of those differences and new cultures have arrived and put their stamp down. American is a different nation today and people who live in America. Who consider themselves Americans should never forgot the history of why' there ancestors came to America.

 

[searcher]

I have to say this show really blew me away. Always thought there was a darkside to this whole thing and read some of the stuff Don ecker did. Cattle mutilations has always seemed more of an unanswered question to me than anything, because there is physical proof just lying there.

Thats story about the B52 bomber was just crazy. I also see how nothing is ever done to find out what happened. To be found like that poor guy in a bush , boot in a tree, no footprints etc..... and its written off as cocaine abuse ???? I understand the toxicology report but jeeeeeeez. If that was a family member you would spend the rest of your life trying to get at the truth. Funny how the wife has said/done nothing.......

 

[dude-with-no-life]

The gory bits made me think of that movie the Predator.
But for the most part i recognized human behaviour towards animals, insects, earth etc. and even humans

The question was raised if this "whatever it is" cared about returning the mutilated bodies. In your daily life you kill many insects and animals without even noticing it, without any care. So why should it be any different when we get stepped on like a bug? We perceive the whole butcher job as a big event, there must be a reason behind it. Or is that just the human ego speaking?

I keep seeing a fat kid with his magnifying glass, burning ants, pulling out legs from bugs. No special purpose, just at the wrong place at the wrong time.
It's not a sexy answer but reality if often not so sexy.

Who knows what's going on.

 

[pixelsmith]

Flies and other insects can produce surgical appearing wounds and also leave no footprints.

 

[Tom From Hong Kong]

I likewise enjoyed the show. It is abundantly clear that there is very little publicly available information about the human mutilation phenomenum. However, it sounds as if the authorities aggressively suppress any information about possible incidents, and I personally was left with the impression human mutilations may be more prevalent than we are led or wish to believe.

If the phonomenum truly exists (and I believe it does), its occurrence logically plays a much bigger role in government resistance to 'disclosure' than we acknowledge when we discuss the disclosure topic. Yes, to be sure, the government may be embarrassed about its lack of understanding surrounding the origin of the craft and their occupants, but given the fate of Sgt. John Lovett -- right on government land nonetheless -- you can understand the government's desire not to open a pandora's box. The mutilation phenomenum may also play into other odd occurrences: Ronald Reagan's statements about the threat from an alien force in front of the U.N., despite repeated edits from his speechwriters, as well as the reports of a visibly shaken Jimmy Carter after a purported UFO briefing, despite his having personally witnessed a UFO before assuming the Presidency. And then there are the 'missing' billions of dollars which are rumored to be funneled to black ops projects which may serve as the basis for some response to the 'threat', e.g., the Space Shuttle footage of the missiles being fired at the UFO in outer space, or reports of black triangles near Area 51.

I doubt anyone wants to get too far in front of the evidence on this -- there is limited, verifiable support of the human mutilation phenomenum (although you have to admit it is odd that Don Ecker would be warned off the topic if there wasn't something to it; who issued the warning?). That being said, I personally am now a little less convinced that the government is acting against our interests when it come to the UFO phenomenum, particularly when taken alongside the evidence surrounding abductions.

 

[Decker]

Howdy all. I just finished listening to the new episode of The Paracast show with guest Butch Witkowski, Chief Investigator for Pennsylvania-MUFON. I was really torn on whether I wanted to hear this show or not, because of my over 3 year investigation (of beating my head into brick walls) dealing with human mutilations.

I could tell right up front that Witkowski was one of my kind of guys, straight forward, no nonsense and get to the facts. The other thing that became apparent to me was that Butch covered much of the same material that I hit 20 years ago. Now, the reason for this note on the show thread.

Several things that Butch mentioned I had extensive knowledge on, and I wished we had communicated concerning his investigation. And, by the way … Butch would have had no way of knowing this information, hell I was there when this information first came out.

The 3 things I wanted to point at are the Sgt. Lovette case at White Sands, the MACV/SOG report, and the B-52 “knockdown” in Viet Nam. It is all false information, how do I know? It came from a guy, William “BILL” English, via John Lear.

Back in early 1989 when I was really digging in on the human mutilation investigation I knew John Lear, who at that time was the MUFON State Director for the state of Nevada. If you’ve read my paper “My 20 Years in the UFO Fog” I mentioned when I first became interested in the whole UFO thing, I had read Bill Moore and Jaime Shadera’s MJ-12 papers and John Lear’s paper. Lear had sent me a huge amount of his research at that time and I really jumped into the mix. Back in the early 80’s I had been lead investigator into 2 cattle mutilations, which by the way never had been solved. I became friends with the Idaho MUFON State Director, Mr. Don Mason, and after we compared notes, it was he who first told me about a rumor of either a camper/hunter who had been mutilated and I began following up on it. Lear knew about my investigation and my follow-ups and more information I had turned up, and in the spring of 89 invited me to give a paper on it at the national MUFON conference in Las Vegas. The national/international board of directors of MUFON where not happy about this because not only I but also Lear, Wm. Cooper (who had not yet gone completely off the deep end) and William English were all going to speak on that Sunday. BTW, this was one day after Bill Moore’s shocking revelations about Paul Bennewitz and his forays into military intelligence. The international Director for MUFON then was Walt Andrus and he had a cow. He forbid Lear (the state director and host of the conference) to have we speakers on, so Lear threatened to take all of us down the street and most of the conference attendee’s would have followed us. At any rate we stayed there and spoke. (And, as a side note and bit of trivia, Andrus, at one point pulled me aside at the conference and told me if I spoke, I could rest assured I would NEVER again EVER SPEAK at another MUFON conference. And … I never did again.)

Bill English was touted as a former Special Forces Captain, Viet Nam vet, and the guy that claimed to have seen the infamous “Grudge 13” report. In this “report” was supposedly the story about the Sgt. Lovette mutilation and English was the only source for that story. Later English claimed that he had first hand knowledge of the MACV/SOG encounter in the jungles of Viet Nam, and he was supposedly one of the American servicemen that discovered the B-52. I was curious about all this of course because not only was I investigating the “human mute” thing, but I had been special ops in Viet Nam from 70-72 when I was wounded and evaced out of RVN. At first I thought English and I might have a lot in common. Later English came back to California and he and the guy helping him with speaking engagements stayed at my home. It didn’t take me very long to prove to myself that English was as full of shit as a Christmas turkey.

Special Forces had an age requirement and at the time English was too young to have served in SF. He didn’t have the documentation to prove his commission as an officer either and at one point I showed him a Colt CAR-15 rifle, the weapon of choice in RVN for special ops, and he didn’t know what it was. Later, in connection with Peter Brooksmith, a British skeptic, we tracked down every B-52 lost in country during the war and when the date English claimed to have been on the “search and rescue” there were no lost “52’s” He lied. Or did he? There was always something a little off about English, almost like he was programmed. He did have some very weird things in his background and some stuff that just never made any sense. (And, as another aside, he told some absolutely bizarre stories … I mean really bizarre.) I am not going to go into that here and now, but suffice to say that during my pretty in-depth investigation in Grudge-13, never could find even one thing to suggest it was real, other than English’s claims. Next, he was too young to have been in SF, much less an SF Officer. Nothing to suggest the MACV/SOG (Military Assistance Command Vietnam/Studies and Observation Group) encounter was real, and the original paper I saw mentioning this supposed encounter named weapons that would not have been carried in the bush by U.S. troops, such as the FN-FAL rifle. (Normal weapons were M-16’s, CAR-15’s, shotguns, M-60 GPMG, and so forth) And finally the B-52 “knockdown” by a UFO, according to the official records no B-52 was lost at that time, ergo no Green Beret Bill English finding it with mutilated crew members. This is another reason I wanted nothing to do with the topic, tons and tons of mis and dis-formation surrounds the topic. However the topics I just raised, this was something I actually had firsthand knowledge of, and was there when it first surfaced. I felt I had a responsibility to set the record straight with the forum members here.

The entire subject of human mutilations is nothing but twists and turns, not to mention blind alleys, and I do not envy the road Butch Witkowski is on.

Decker

 

[Lauren Jones]

One could argue that the claims made by Butch Witkowski regarding the death of Todd Sees are not only absurd, but also obscene in their exploitation of Sees and his family in order to push a theory that's highly suspect at best. I understand that the context is completely different, and I draw this parallel only to make a analogous rather than direct point, but there are those of us who find theories such as (particle beams from space) brought down the World Trade Centers to be, once again, not only absurd, but also highly offensive to the victims and their families. The death of Todd Sees is on a different scale, just one man's life, but in a perverse way---just another detached channel to spread propaganda.

The Sees' family have made it very clear and have continued to make it clear to Butch Witkowski that the claims he's played a major role in perpetuating are making a mockery of their son's death and have made it more difficult for the family to find any sense of closure as the result of the mythology that continues to develop around this case. Can you imagine the guy's Mom receiving phone calls from some jerk investigating the abduction angle?

Google the name, Todd Sees, and everything you see relates to alien abduction. There's something sick about this.

Witkowski states that he's going to "continue to try to get answers for the family." The Sees' family has told Witkowski to Go To Hell. Agree or not, I think you see what I'm saying.

To clarify; these thoughts have nothing to do with The Paracast. I love The Paracast.

Being consistent with the principles of the show, take a look at how Butch Witkowski selectively speculates on a Los Alamos report on some cattle mutilations. David correctly points out that they are not biologists, yet Witkowski mentions zinc/potassium levels in the cattle followed by "how did it get there?" type statements, implying something beyond rational explanation is at play, when he is in absolutely no position to make such an implication or interpret the biological data of such a report. Just as we would take someone with no photographic expertise to task for interpreting the digital data of a Kodak Labs report and drawing groundless implications from it---the same approach seems reasonable here.

 

[Schuyler]

I'm sure glad Don Ecker got on here to talk about the B-52, etc. I came on here to express my reluctance about this guy and Don did the entire thing prior and much more eloquently and knowledgeably than I could have. I didn't know anything about the Sees case and I appreciate the information, but I really thought this guy went downhill in the second half when he just started speculating wildly all over the map. I guess the lesson here is, "Stay with what you know." and you'll do a better job.

 

[Anders]

I found this on the case from Brazil:

 

[searcher]

Don. its people like you that really are shining light in all this fog...lol thanks for the info

 

[Aussie1]

I am a long time listener to the paracast. This episode is by far the most disturbing episode of any paranormal podcast that I have ever heard. It was also the most fascinating episode from the paracast, the best by far. The hairs on by body raised when Butch Witkowski talked about the downed plane with mutilated bodies. I believe that if there are aliens visiting us, the probability they are benevolent is not guaranteed.

 

[Schuyler]

I found this on the case from Brazil:

Bzzt! This case is BS. Really. The guy in question was known to be an alcoholic and was also on narcotic pain pills, a deadly combination. He went into the woods on a fishing expedition, passed out, and was eaten by critters, including vultures, while still alive. The 'rescuers' who came across his body saw several vultures on top of it when they arrived. There were no 'precision instruments' except Birds with Beaks.

I just came across this information recently. I will edit and add sources if I can find it again. I didn't think it was important at the time and did not bookmark it.

 

[Schuyler]

The hairs on by body raised when Butch Witkowski talked about the downed plane with mutilated bodies.

It was a good ghost story, just not true. You did read what Ecker wrote above, right?

 

[AdamI]

I too am skeptical. I posted this in another thread, but there is a skeptical side to the Guarapiranga case:

The Horror: Guarapiranga case | forgetomori

But I am open-minded... what I heard was a mix of things, some of which sounded more credible than others.

One thing that did come to mind from the descriptions of the mutilations was the idea of non-sentient probes. If there is some reality behind this, these sound like the actions of something that is performing sampling and reconnaissance without any sentient awareness of concepts like pain, fear, morality, etc.

We might even be sending something soon to drill through the ice of Europa and "sample" what's down there:

Wikimedia Error

 

[dyingsun]

Don't people even read the threads anymore..?

 

[jkoci]

I really thought this guy went downhill in the second half when he just started speculating wildly all over the map. I guess the lesson here is, "Stay with what you know." and you'll do a better job.

I just got done with listening to the episode and I'll have to agree. I would like to have heard some more information about of his other cases with PA Mufon.

BTW - I found this pig mutilation for what its worth.

Inexplicata-The Journal of Hispanic Ufology: Argentina: Pig Mutilation in Victoria

 

[Gareth]

I also thought Butch was essentially a credible guy. But I also came to ask about the B52 that had been "placed" on the jungle floor. I found it a bit odd that he threw that and a couple of other stories out there as evidence that many people who had their minds tinkered with in the past will now be coming forward.

But other than that I thought it was a great show.

Thanks Don for the information.

 

[Tom From Hong Kong]

Before some become overly critical of Butch Witkowski, let's put what he said in context. Regarding the Vietnam cases (N.B., probably false given Don's post above), Mr. Witkowski merely mentioned them in passing with a short description of what supposedly occurred, and did not give them significant weight in the overall discussion of the topic. He also did not express a personal view on their validity one way or another. The core of the discussion - the Todd Sees case - is in fact extremely abnormal in its fact patterns, and evidently includes third party witnesses to a disc in the area. The critical piece of evidence we are missing in the case is a copy of the autopsy report (I don't recall any details from it beyond the cause of death being discussed). Many have examined the case from Brazil via the internet and it is likewise odd -- if there is additional information to be brought to bear concerning animal predators then it would be good to see it. However, it does not appear predatory behavior was mentioned in the official autopsy report (I assume Mr. Witkowski would have picked that up in the English translation from Portuguese). Any competent medical doctor should be able to quickly see the effects of animals, and I assume that would be noted in the report (query, how does the prostate get removed through the urethra? Is this correct?). It would be helpful if the English translation of the report was posted on the internet.

Recognizing that the Sees' family is distraught over the loss of a loved one, deaths are a matter of public record, and descriptions and accompanying speculation find their way into the public domain more frequently these days than they did in the past. As a family member, I personally would have been more upset at the official finding of drug overdose (particularly if Mr. Sees wasn't a serious drug user) than some odd-ball speculation that he was murdered by aliens (note: has anyone checked in the community to assess whether Mr. Sees had the reputation for drug use? It only was mentioned that he didn't have the profile.). Perhaps discussing the case on the radio is in bad taste, but imagine living in a society where we were not permitted to discuss cases openly, and the potential for government abuse. For me, the First Amendment takes precedence.

In short, the supporting evidence for human mutilations is quite limited, but there remains these persistent rumors that human mutes are occurring at the very low rate of frequency (Idaho? Hudson Valley flap? etc.). Given the apparent widespread occurrence of animal mutilations across a range of species, I personally think the case of human mutilations still remains open and deserves honest debate and discussion.

 

[Kevin Daly]

That was fascinating and chilling, although when he got to the Vietnam stuff I thought "Wait a sec, wasn't Clifford Stone or somebody pushing that one and wasn't it thoroughly debunked?" - Good to see Don's on top of that.

Since if I recall correctly Mr. Sees doesn't seem to have been mutilated (strictly speaking) I'm not certain with what confidence his case can be grouped with the others - I'd be more inclined to label it an "anomalous death" and hope for more information. But when we don't know what we're looking at it's hard to know where the boundaries lie.

Like others I'm reminded of Predator, and that may even provide some useful perspective: in asking why the remains are returned when it would be simpler and draw less attention to simply destroy them, we are assuming that the behaviour of the responsible parties is rational, when in fact it may be governed by cultural or religious factors that require the remains to be returned to their place of origin.
Or perhaps they are machines/constructs/a semi-sentient subject species following orders given long ago by masters who are long gone, and simply not very bright (imagine Rover continuing to fetch the stick long after the last of Homo sapiens bites the dust.."And it was written in the Book of Snrrb: 'Thou shalt take thine Anal Probe and Smite Them With Great Smitiness, Yea, Even In The Bum, Unless They're Called Whitley And Seem To Enjoy It'") - we have a serious lack of good information on which to base conclusions.

I don't know if all the remains from mutilations have been identified, but if there are cases where they have not it might be interesting to check records of disappearances from the area in question going back longer than might be expected - if we found a case where there was a gap of say, decades between a disappearance and the remains reappearing that would be useful information in itself (and if the body was fresh it would convincingly preclude all but the most imaginative or fanciful conventional explanations - "An extrememly clever Grizzly kept him in a fridge for 10 years").

 

[dusty]

Bzzt! This case is BS. Really. The guy in question was known to be an alcoholic and was also on narcotic pain pills, a deadly combination. He went into the woods on a fishing expedition, passed out, and was eaten by critters, including vultures, while still alive. The 'rescuers' who came across his body saw several vultures on top of it when they arrived. There were no 'precision instruments' except Birds with Beaks.

I just came across this information recently. I will edit and add sources if I can find it again. I didn't think it was important at the time and did not bookmark it.

Thanks Schuyler,

I posted something on this ages ago, now I know why no one responded

Mark