Bosley's Cop-out Antithesis

[jimbo83478]

This is in reference to the July 4 show with Walter Bosley and Greg Bishop. I don't believe this topic was covered in the initial debacle of a thread for this show so I would like to address it briefly.

Towards the end of the episode, Walter stresses,

"You've got a far far greater possibility of finding a true real answer by going out there yourself than you ever are going to get reading other peoples books, listening to what other people have to say on podcasts and radio shows..."

All I really do with this subject is read books and listen to podcasts - and I think that's brought me to some pretty reasonable conclusions (I think) - but of course I wouldn't mind a little first person corroboration as well. So, I am just curious as to what Walter means exactly by 'going out there.' Does that mean investigating sightings, visiting allegedly haunted locations, scouring the library, meditating, something else, or all of the above?

Thanks,
Jimbo



———————————

 

[Angel of Ioren]

I'm pretty sure that's what he meant, and if one can afford to do so it's a wonderful notion. Realistically, few people have the time or the resources to do so.

 

[Ron Collins]

This is in reference to the July 4 show with Walter Bosley and Greg Bishop. I don't believe this topic was covered in the initial debacle of a thread for this show so I would like to address it briefly.

Towards the end of the episode, Walter stresses,

"You've got a far far greater possibility of finding a true real answer by going out there yourself than you ever are going to get reading other peoples books, listening to what other people have to say on podcasts and radio shows..."

All I really do with this subject is read books and listen to podcasts - and I think that's brought me to some pretty reasonable conclusions (I think) - but of course I wouldn't mind a little first person corroboration as well. So, I am just curious as to what Walter means exactly by 'going out there.' Does that mean investigating sightings, visiting allegedly haunted locations, scouring the library, meditating, something else, or all of the above?

Thanks,
Jimbo

(I Kinda remember typing something about this in that thread but I dont have the time to look right now.)

1 -- You have a greater chance of seeing/experiencing phenomenon if you are actively looking for it. It has been postulated by Jeff Ritzman that whatever the origin of the manifestation is it requires our attention and emotion. (He may not have been the originator but was the first to bring it up that I ever heard.) kind of like the Ori from the Stargate SG1 stuff if you follow the Sci-Fi series. Basically, they need this "energy" to exist here. For the English among us, do you remember a show called "Invasion: Earth"(circa '98 or'99)? The "theory" is kinda like that... in a way... sort of... at least in my head.

OR

2 -- He thinks you should go out and do field work in order to formulate a meaningful opinion. He says this, I believe, from a defensive position from the blowback his interview generated in the forums. I think this is the one he meant but I am willing to throw both interpretations out there.

Personally, I think both are equally frustrating and intriguing. With #1 I think it is akin to chalking it all up to unprovable magic. This seeming dismissal is frustrating to me. I am not sure if this is part of the "Trickster" manifestation that Chris O'Brien talks about or not. This part is kind of intriguing in that I want to learn more about O'Brien's theory.

For #2, I can't disagree that someone would be better equipped to make a personal determination with hands on investigation. The notion of active research has and will always interest me. BUT, I think this was a thinly veiled accusation that, in essence, "if you are not going to do active investigative work then you don't have the right to judge the phenomena". That frustrates me. As Angel says, few people have the time and resources. A fact not lost on him. Anyway, if I am wrong on this angle, then apologies.

 

[The Pair of Cats]

In think Walter was replying, in frustration , to the "interrogation" he received after recounting his experiences on the show and these forums.

Angel of Ioren[/B]]I'm pretty sure that's what he meant, and if one can afford to do so it's a wonderful notion. Realistically, few people have the time or the resources to do so.

I'm sure there are areas local to each individual that are fairly inexpensive to visit and investigate. I know that in my home town we have an old jail, supposedly haunted, that offers reasonably priced tours. There are no guarantees that you will see or experience anything but at least you could try. it doesn't have to cost you an arm and a leg. It also means having an open mind about such experiences as much as it does to have your sceptical mind tuned up. (a balance of both, i think).

Ron Collins[/I]]I can't disagree that someone would be better equipped to make a personal determination with hands on investigation. The notion of active research has and will always interest me. BUT, I think this was a thinly veiled accusation that, in essence, "if you are not going to do active investigative work then you don't have the right to judge the phenomena". That frustrates me. As Angel says, few people have the time and resources. A fact not lost on him. Anyway, if I am wrong on this angle, then apologies.

Yet some people seem to have an unlimited amount of time dedicated to these forums. One may ask "where to they get the time to do so" in between work and family commitments. I think he was saying, "if you are not going to do active investigative work then you don't have the right to judge the person experiencing the phenomena".
One can believe Walter Bosley and his anecdotes or disbelieve them, that is the right of each individual to do so. Do it in a respectful way. If you haven't had an unexplained paranormal or UFO type event as you may suffer from a lack of understanding in regards as to how hard it is to describe such events to others. If you think that what you are hearing is BS then fair enough call it as such. Do it in a respectful way.

 

[Angel of Ioren]

I'm sure there are areas local to each individual that are fairly inexpensive to visit and investigate. I know that in my home town we have an old jail, supposedly haunted, that offers reasonably priced tours. There are no guarantees that you will see or experience anything but at least you could try. it doesn't have to cost you an arm and a leg. It also means having an open mind about such experiences as much as it does to have your sceptical mind tuned up. (a balance of both, i think).

You have a good point Phil, although with a young child I do not have the time to do any investigating. However, I live in an area that is considered to be the UFO capital of Quebec. Two years and nothing out of the ordinary.
Check it out: Mont Saint-Hilaire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

My thoughts are that a lot has to do with the incredible amount of rare birds that live on the mountain. All it takes is a strange reflection bouncing off one of the beautiful peregrine falcons (there are two that nest on the mountain) and you have a UFO. I won't lie, I've been fooled myself. I thought I had finally seen something interesting and I realized it was one of the falcons. Incredibly beautiful none the less.

 

[ArchieBedford]

(I Kinda remember typing something about this in that thread but I dont have the time to look right now.)

1 -- You have a greater chance of seeing/experiencing phenomenon if you are actively looking for it. It has been postulated by Jeff Ritzman that whatever the origin of the manifestation is it requires our attention and emotion. (He may not have been the originator but was the first to bring it up that I ever heard.) kind of like the Ori from the Stargate SG1 stuff if you follow the Sci-Fi series. Basically, they need this "energy" to exist here..

Or it might be that "if you are actively looking for it" you may in fact become more sensitised and therefore notice something that other people fail to notice or do not stop to consider odd or significant. I consider my own experience supports this notion. The phenomenon is there or not, independent of the observer, IMHO. It's all about awareness.

I know many people who want to see UFOs and spend time looking for them, but they never see one. They are certainly "actively looking." They're just unlucky (in their terms): they don't see one no matter how much emotion or attention they give to it: the phenomenon couldn't care less.

Ritzmann was not the first one to "postulate" this notion: he was paraphrasing Jacques Vallee's ideas from his "Passport to Magonia" period. Sorry Jacques, but IMHO despite your lucid intellectual arguments, you were wrong about this.

---------- Post added at 04:25 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:05 AM ----------

This is in reference to the July 4 show with Walter Bosley and Greg Bishop. I don't believe this topic was covered in the initial debacle of a thread for this show so I would like to address it briefly.

Towards the end of the episode, Walter stresses,

"You've got a far far greater possibility of finding a true real answer by going out there yourself than you ever are going to get reading other peoples books, listening to what other people have to say on podcasts and radio shows..."

All I really do with this subject is read books and listen to podcasts - and I think that's brought me to some pretty reasonable conclusions (I think) - but of course I wouldn't mind a little first person corroboration as well. So, I am just curious as to what Walter means exactly by 'going out there.' Does that mean investigating sightings, visiting allegedly haunted locations, scouring the library, meditating, something else, or all of the above?

Thanks,
Jimbo

With some things this is definitely true. I have never forgotten in August 1970 as a 14-year old seeing a mutilated cow in Co Kerry, SW Ireland. I was shown it by the farmer around 08.30 in the morning. The cow had been in the pasture with the rest of the herd the evening before and now here it was, across two fences, a mile away and half way up a hillside, lying on its back with the whole of its rectal area cored out to leave an even, red-black hole about nine inches in diameter which looked like it had been heat-cauterised around the edge. Part of the flesh on one side of the jaw, and one eye, were removed in the same way. An ear and a teat were missing - all these injuries with the same, bloodless and seemingly surgical characteristics. The local vet (remember this was rural Ireland 40 years ago) pronounced the cause of death to be "anthrax." Even the farmer was unconvinced by this, and was deeply disturbed by the episode - not just because he'd lost a good cow, but the whole horror and strangeness of it.

Now, I never knew anything about this cattle-mutilation thing in connection with UFOs until about 20 years later - whenever it was that LMH's "Strange Harvest" was aired, sometime after that. But I never forgot that cow. It haunted me, always, and gave me a very uneasy feeling. I could see it when I closed my eyes. So I think the point about seeing things for yourself is a valid one. It always trumps armchair theories and the inevitable attendant BS and once you've seen or experienced something yourself, no amount of ignorant debunking or intellectual theorizing is ever going to convince you that it ain't true.

I'm not even going to talk about abductions and how damned physical they are but needless to say, the same rule of personal experience v. armchair-theorist BS applies.

 

[The Pair of Cats]

Angelo. I know it's hard to do any type of investigating with a young child to care for, I appreciate that.

 

[Ron Collins]

Yet some people seem to have an unlimited amount of time dedicated to these forums. One may ask "where to they get the time to do so" in between work and family commitments. I think he was saying, "if you are not going to do active investigative work then you don't have the right to judge the person experiencing the phenomena".
One can believe Walter Bosley and his anecdotes or disbelieve them, that is the right of each individual to do so. Do it in a respectful way. If you haven't had an unexplained paranormal or UFO type event as you may suffer from a lack of understanding in regards as to how hard it is to describe such events to others. If you think that what you are hearing is BS then fair enough call it as such. Do it in a respectful way.

I don't disagree in theory but lets look at a few extenuating circumstances. For instance, me. I run a software company and have a family and an active social life. I keep the forum up most of the day and jump on in between meetings, phone calls, and normal business or at nights after the kids are in bed. So basically I have a lot going on.

As it is a deep interest(and the fact that I can only sleep 4 or 5 hours a night), I devote many hours to it as it fits into my schedule. To be told that my opinions, efforts, and conclusions hold little or no merit because I don't actively investigate these subjects (in the field) is insulting and sanctimonious. The problem I have with this entire line of thought is in the implication that the active field researcher is doing us a favor by letting us hear their personal enlightenment. In many cases they write a book and/or go on countless paranormal radio/podcast shows to promote the story and/or the associated material.

Therefore it should follow that they want me to spend time to read/view/hear it and make a determination. For me the part where the theory breaks down is when the "researcher" or "experiencer" or whatever wants me to buy/listen/read/view their stuff and then tell me I have no right to judge it. Of course I have a right to judge it.

BUT, I also have an obligation to to do so in a respectful manner until such a time that the individual has repeatedly been shown to be dishonest, of deliberate intent to mislead, or conduct themselves in obviously inappropriate ways(calling someone they barely met an alien-human hybrid for instance). Then, they are open game in my opinion. So for me, the response is somewhat subjective and is largely dependent on my mood at the time.

 

[NTS]

As I've said on another thread, I did see something that I thought for a while was a UFO, although I was finally able to identify it. It was unsettling. So even though it wasn't nearly as intense as (say) ArchieBedford's experience, I do agree that something like that gives you a better understanding of the impact the truly strange has on people. I'm a lot less sure it gives you any better idea what causes it though.

 

[The Pair of Cats]

I don't disagree in theory but lets look at a few extenuating circumstances. For instance, me. I run a software company and have a family and an active social life. I keep the forum up most of the day and jump on in between meetings, phone calls, and normal business or at nights after the kids are in bed. So basically I have a lot going on.

Extenuating circumstances are cool. I was certainly not postulating that everyone need drop what they are doing and go out, TAPS style, and start investigating their local haunted Tavern or whatnot. But i am sure, Ron, that given the chance someone such as yourself would have a go at a little paranormal field work. (although i am making an assumption there.)

Therefore it should follow that they want me to spend time to read/view/hear it and make a determination. For me the part where the theory breaks down is when the "researcher" or "experiencer" or whatever wants me to buy/listen/read/view their stuff and then tell me I have no right to judge it. Of course I have a right to judge it.

And of course you do have that right. I don't think Walter has said anywhere on these forums or elsewhere that he is asking anyone to "buy" or believe any of his anecdotes. Indeed I believe he is OK with people who disbelieve him altogether.

BUT, I also have an obligation to to do so in a respectful manner until such a time that the individual has repeatedly been shown to be dishonest, of deliberate intent to mislead, or conduct themselves in obviously inappropriate ways(calling someone they barely met an alien-human hybrid for instance). Then, they are open game in my opinion. So for me, the response is somewhat subjective and is largely dependent on my mood at the time.

Do you think that Walter behaved in that way, Ron? Or, if he did, was it in response to the way he was treated by others on this forum?
I certainly don't think that you were anything but civil to him.

 

[Ron Collins]

Extenuating circumstances are cool. I was certainly not postulating that everyone need drop what they are doing and go out, TAPS style, and start investigating their local haunted Tavern or whatnot. But i am sure, Ron, that given the chance someone such as yourself would have a go at a little paranormal field work. (although i am making an assumption there.)

And you are not wrong! Someday when i officially retire I will most likely do something along these lines. At least that is my plan at the moment. Ask me again in 30 years!

And of course you do have that right. I don't think Walter has said anywhere on these forums or elsewhere that he is asking anyone to "buy" or believe any of his anecdotes. Indeed I believe he is OK with people who disbelieve him altogether.

No he did not, I was speaking more in general terms as this theme has been widely used in the past when a researcher is confronted with anything other than adulation. Rarely do we hear there "you need to get out there and do something and then you can judge me" speech until the conversation turns negative. I see it almost as the de facto defense mechanism for the assaulted researcher.

Do you think that Walter behaved in that way, Ron? Or, if he did, was it in response to the way he was treated by others on this forum?
I certainly don't think that you were anything but civil to him.

No i do not think he acted inappropriately. I think the backlash was due to the number and diversity of the experiences and exacerbated by their more fantastical elements. That combination has always been aggressively challenged here. Not even Biedney was exempt from it as I am sure you recall.

 

[rhcball]

1 -- You have a greater chance of seeing/experiencing phenomenon if you are actively looking for it.

there are some who would beg to differ--the guy who runs 'elf school' in Iceland made the point that these 'entities' will avoid people such as himself [and, I figure, myself], the type of person who would 'ask too many questions.' Makes sense to me that certain phenomena would avoid the personality types who would cling to it and drain it of all vitality.

 

[justcurious]

there are some who would beg to differ--the guy who runs 'elf school' in Iceland made the point that these 'entities' will avoid people such as himself [and, I figure, myself], the type of person who would 'ask too many questions.' Makes sense to me that certain phenomena would avoid the personality types who would cling to it and drain it of all vitality.

Very interesting, if only by the originality of the comment, please post some more !

What do you mean by: [and, I figure, myself] ? Have you had any experiences ?

 

[rhcball]

Nah, no experiences, and I think Mr. Elf School adequately sums up why I'm shut out of the paranormal playland.

 

[justcurious]

Thx rhcball,

Obviously we all talk from the standpoint of our experiences. Some have had a totally "normal" life, without any "para" component, some have had different degrees of "para" intruding in their reality. I am personally convinced that rationality has its counterpart just like anything else in our universe.

Okay I've been trying for 15min now to find how to say what I want to say in a way that won't upset anyone. I am actually worried that it might sound like an appeal to (paranormal) authority.

The fact is that my life has been full "paranormal", there's even some bit I "use" in my daily routine (to me it's normal, the only real "para" I need is before the word "chute", and it has saved my life). I have told only a bit of my experiences in my introductory thread, I could write a book. When I sit down and look back I barely believe the script. So, from where I stand, it is clear that normality/rationality is only one half of reality. I am not wondering if there is more than numbers here, I know and understand that, my aim is to get a greater mastery over this half of reality. Or I am crazy, but I don't mind because the impact on my life has been very positive, till now.

Is this acceptable for the Paracast crowd ? :shy:

 

[Angel of Ioren]

Thx rhcball,

Obviously we all talk from the standpoint of our experiences. Some have had a totally "normal" life, without any "para" component, some have had different degrees of "para" intruding in their reality. I am personally convinced that rationality has its counterpart just like anything else in our universe.

Okay I've been trying for 15min now to find how to say what I want to say in a way that won't upset anyone. I am actually worried that it might sound like an appeal to (paranormal) authority.

The fact is that my life has been full "paranormal", there's even some bit I "use" in my daily routine (to me it's normal, the only real "para" I need is after the word "chute", and it has saved my life). I have told only a bit of my experiences in my introductory thread, I could write a book. When I sit down and look back I barely believe the script. So, from where I stand, it is clear that normality/rationality is only one half of reality. I am not wondering if there is more than numbers here, I know and understand that, my aim is to get a greater mastery over this half of reality. Or I am crazy, but I don't mind because the impact on my life has been very positive, till now.

Is this acceptable for the Paracast crowd ? :shy:

Hey, as long as you're not being an asshole and following the rules, it's acceptable to the paracast crowd. Just don't get too offended when some of us here try to tell you that viewed from a different mind-set, some of what you think of as paranormal can be perfectly normal. One man's alien abduction is another man's sleep paralysis.

 

[justcurious]

Hey, as long as you're not being an asshole and following the rules, it's acceptable to the paracast crowd. Just don't get too offended when some of here try to tell you that viewed from a different mind-set, some of what you think of as paranormal can be perfectly normal. One man's alien abduction is another man's sleep paralysis.

Huh?

 

[Angel of Ioren]

I'm not quite sure what you didn't understand.

 

[justcurious]

I'm not quite sure what you didn't understand.

I was wondering why you felt compelled to mention "asshole"and "follow the rules" to answer my post...

 

[trainedobserver]

Huh?

I think he was trying to say that folks shouldn't turn into paranormal prima donnas (or would that be divas?) if someone expresses a contrary point of view about their experiences or their opinions about them.