Banned From The UFO Collective Google Group

[Burnt State]

So just how much sperm and eggs do these greys, be they bio-bots or otherwise, actually need? The whole breeding program, hybrids, slow-motion takeover of the planet sounds entirely improbable. They've been at it for decades now supposedly with little to show for their efforts. What's much more likely is the fantasy world of humans includes mystical meetings and the odd mental sexual rendezvous with creatures from beyond. These are common historical mythologies and the repeated patterns with greys as told by Stan Romanek and other contactee hoaxers seem to be their own invention. Do we actually have any real verifiable cases of alien abduction or just really interesting witness reports, hypnosis induced narratives and then super confabulating like the Cortile case? What's next, are we also going to start entertaining implants as well?

 

[mike]

To the specific question how much do they need, there are a number of scenarios where the answer might be lots and lots.
Keep in mind we think in terms of a single planetary population, their society/s may be in an order of magnitudes larger.
And why waste the resources and energy to clone and or replicate it, when they have a ready source of the stuff for the taking.

Lets say as an exercise you owned a 1000 acre farm, and decided ten children would be ideal to help you run and maintain it.
It is still easier to impregnate your wife the good old fashioned way ten times, than it is to store sperm and eggs and use artificial insemination to acheive the objective.
The KISS principle is a good one.
With todays medical technology you could use the artificial insemination option, but its cheaper to do it the old fashioned way, it requires less resources and energy
And when it comes to eggs.......Fresh is Best


Heres one purely hypothetical scenario

A thousand years from now, we have mastered mind uploading and time travel, when a persons native bioform breaks down, their minds are uploaded to the "brainframe" substrate and an optimised replicant body is created for the individual, who is back loaded into it.

This society then starts working its way backwards down the time line, recycling the minds of previous generations, using this technology

As at 2011, the estimate is that 56 billion humans have been born, lived and died............

And thats just this single planetary population

Each of these minds will use up lots and lots of optimised replicant bio vessels over the course of thousands and thousands, perhaps millions of years

Again thats the numbers from just this single planetary society

Expand that to a society thousand or millions of years older than us.........

Also to an uploaded mind, a biological vessel is a disposable item, a plastic cup. How many of these do we each use in a lifetime ?

From our pov our native bioform is a precious, you only get one of them item.

To a post biological entity, Its a suit of clothes, you wear it out you throw it away, and get another.

Trying to interpret the alleged data from a human pov, is almost impossible

 

[Randall]

To the specific question how much do they need, there are a number of scenarios where the answer might be lots and lots.
Keep in mind we think in terms of a single planetary population, their society/s may be in an order of magnitudes larger.
And why waste the resources and energy to clone and or replicate it, when they have a ready source of the stuff for the taking.

Lets say as an exercise you owned a 1000 acre farm, and decided ten children would be ideal to help you run and maintain it.
It is still easier to impregnate your wife the good old fashioned way ten times, than it is to store sperm and eggs and use artificial insemination to acheive the objective.
The KISS principle is a good one.
With todays medical technology you could use the artificial insemination option, but its cheaper to do it the old fashioned way, it requires less resources and energy
And when it comes to eggs.......Fresh is Best


Heres one purely hypothetical scenario

A thousand years from now, we have mastered mind uploading and time travel, when a persons native bioform breaks down, their minds are uploaded to the "brainframe" substrate and an optimised replicant body is created for the individual, who is back loaded into it.

This society then starts working its way backwards down the time line, recycling the minds of previous generations, using this technology

As at 2011, the estimate is that 56 billion humans have been born, lived and died............

And thats just this single planetary population

Each of these minds will use up lots and lots of optimised replicant bio vessels over the course of thousands and thousands, perhaps millions of years

Again thats the numbers from just this single planetary society

Expand that to a society thousand or millions of years older than us.........

Also to an uploaded mind, a biological vessel is a disposable item, a plastic cup. How many of these do we each use in a lifetime ?

From our pov our native bioform is a precious, you only get one of them item.

To a post biological entity, Its a suit of clothes, you wear it out you throw it away, and get another.

Trying to interpret the alleged data from a human pov, is almost impossible

Interesting speculation. I proposed something similar a while back. Suppose the aliens are ET and interstellar travel takes them a long time just like the scientists say it would. Sending biological bodies for an extended trip would be totally impractical. Still, it might be done with huge ships capable of supporting multiple generations, or if the aliens don't age, the ships would still need to be large enough for healthy living conditions. Coincidentally giant motherships have been reported, but even a mothership would have a maximum biological passenger load.

However if a consciousness and all its associated memories and brain functions can be uploaded to a permanent storage medium, and then reanimated at the destination using the destination's resources, then that cuts the need for the transport and maintenance of biological organisms down a lot. Hypothetically it could even be cut down to zero. That would have huge practical benefits. Then when the ship arrives at the destination, the local resources and patterns from the indigenousness life forms might used to reanimate the stored passengers.

The above method would ensure environmental compatibility, but it would also require the gathering of numerous samples and materials from the destination. To take it a step further, suppose there are several transports all utilizing this same technology that arrive at different times, maybe years apart. Although they might be able to get technological updates from the first ships to arrive, they still would need to gather local resources of their own to go into production.

We might then be tempted to ask, OK so where are all the aliens then? Interestingly, this is where there are two possibilities. The first is that they only reanimate a few of the crew to do an inspection and if the tests fail, they decide to move on to the next system. So for a period of time, there would be no massive alien colonization, just clandestine tests to perfect the process. Such tests could go on for years. The other possibility is that the aliens have perfected the process and actually are among us now. This is a far-out idea, but one that is taken seriously by some ufologists, and the one I find the most intriguing. I started the Are Aliens Already Among Us thread with this scenario in mind.

 

[mike]

Another hypothetical example

Lets postulate a single ET species (i think there could be thousands in this galaxy alone if not more)
But we'll for the sake of KISS take one, lets give it a nominal age of half million years old. we are 200 thousand years old, so its 300 thou older than us.
Its has inevitably become post biological in nature, although it still retains a remnant population of native biological citizens.

It inhabits 10 planetary systems, with 10 billion biological citizens on each planet.
As each native bioform wears out, they employ their upload technology and recycle their conciousness to a biologically independant substrate. With an option to back load to a replicant bioform if so desired by the individual.

Over time we see a J curve, the post biological members of this society vastly outnumber the remnant native bioform members.

Eventually this remnant will be unable to keep up with the demand for the biological donations needed to service the post biological replicant process.

One solution would be to create bio farms using planets like ours, upgrading via hybridisation the local bioforms to suit the need.
This also has the advantage of adding hybrid vigour to the equation

Heterosis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If true it would answer a lot of the current questions.

 

[Burnt State]

Okay, while fascinating speculation, and a nice refinement of their process for the sake of travel (one must think their species does a lot of travel); I still don't see any actual examples of this actually taking place. But I do see countless examples of people faking it and producing conflicting information as well as info that appears to be more about culturally front loaded dreams, and/or people who are undergoing profound psychological experiences, possibly working through specific past traumas. Keep in mind one of the dominant links between these witnesses is their inclination towards fantastic and magical thinking. Are there any real verifiable examples that can be pointed to? Are there any witness reports that can be identified as substantial?

 

[Randall]

Okay, while fascinating speculation, and a nice refinement of their process for the sake of travel (one must think their species does a lot of travel); I still don't see any actual examples of this actually taking place ... Are there any witness reports that can be identified as substantial?

That depends on what you mean by, "identified as substantial." If you mean scientifically valid material evidence, then not that I know of, and for the record, I've never claimed that there is such evidence available to the public. We also could have simply asked that question to begin with. But that's not how the discussion has gone. Instead we've outlined at least one logical and scientifically plausible way for claims of alien experimentation to make sense. Plus it would be irresponsible to simply ignore all the people who seriously claim to be subjects of alien experiments. Together these things make it safe to assume that something out of the ordinary has taken place to some people, and that those experiences seem to involve aliens. But that's about as far as we can go before falling off the ledge. It may not be enough to prove alien experimentation is taking place, but at the same time it's also enough to remove the certainty that it's not. So here we are again ... in the Twilight Zone.

 

[mike]

I cant prove aliens are real and visiting, thats not the point of this discussion.
If anyone here is satisfied they are not, then their journey here is over, move along nothing to see here.

What i'm addressing is the contention the idea of extracting human biological materiel/DNA makes no sense, has no logical purpose.

I contend that if its happening, there are a number of logical reasons why it might be.

On to the next scenario

DNA as a means of data storage

Researchers have done it again—encoding 5.2 million bits of digital data in strings of DNA and demonstrating the feasibility of using DNA as a long-term, data-dense storage medium for massive amounts of information.

http://www.the-scientist.com/?artic...09/title/DNA-based-Data-Storage-Here-to-Stay/

A bioengineer and geneticist at Harvard’s Wyss Institute have successfully stored 5.5 petabits of data — around 700 terabytes — in a single gram of DNA, smashing the previous DNA data density record by a thousand times.

Just think about it for a moment: One gram of DNA can store 700 terabytes of data. That’s 14,000 50-gigabyte Blu-ray discs… in a droplet of DNA that would fit on the tip of your pinky. To store the same kind of data on hard drives — the densest storage medium in use today — you’d need 233 3TB drives, weighing a total of 151 kilos. In Church and Kosuri’s case, they have successfully stored around 700 kilobytes of data in DNA — Church’s latest book, in fact — and proceeded to make 70 billion copies (which they claim, jokingly, makes it the best-selling book of all time!) totaling 44 petabytes of data stored.
Looking forward, they foresee a world where biological storage would allow us to record anything and everything without reservation.

Harvard cracks DNA storage, crams 700 terabytes of data into a single gram | ExtremeTech

So what we call abduction and extraction of tissues, might simply be the reading and writing of data into a DNA library, a library that via sexual reproduction perpetuates itself over a very long time frame.
The perfect storage system.

It also has the capability for longevity, as long as the DNA is held in cold, dry and dark conditions, as is shown by the study of woolly mammoth DNA from up to 60,000 years ago, and for resistance to obsolescence, as DNA is a universal and fundamental data storage mechanism in biology. These features have led to researchers involved in their development to call this method of data storage "apocalypse-proof" because "after a hypothetical global disaster, future generations might eventually find the stores and be able to read them." [1] It is, however, a slow process, as the DNA needs to be sequenced in order to retrieve the data, and so the method is intended for uses with a low access rate such as long-term archival of large amounts of scientific data.[1][2]

 

[Stagger Lee]

"It would be irresponsible to ignore all the people who seriously claim to be part of alien experimentation"
I agree with this, and using Romanek as an example to dismiss all claims wouldn't be fair to the many who do not seek to capitalize on their own experience. People like Stan have done a major disservice to the phenom, be it a real physical process, Fae folk, dream state or mass delusion.

 

[Jeff Davis]

Okay, while fascinating speculation, and a nice refinement of their process for the sake of travel (one must think their species does a lot of travel); I still don't see any actual examples of this actually taking place. But I do see countless examples of people faking it and producing conflicting information as well as info that appears to be more about culturally front loaded dreams, and/or people who are undergoing profound psychological experiences, possibly working through specific past traumas. Keep in mind one of the dominant links between these witnesses is their inclination towards fantastic and magical thinking. Are there any real verifiable examples that can be pointed to? Are there any witness reports that can be identified as substantial?

Forgive me, but what is "magical thinking"? Is that where someone imagines a possibility but does not possess the knowledge to understand the critical potential of the matter? I am not sure as a human being that it's possible to avoid magical thinking. I'm thinking that's just a name based on convention that in most other cases would simply be attributable to the imagination itself. What speculative discoveries don't begin with "magical thinking" to some degree?

I agree about the religious aspects of these matters. People that simply have adopted space brethren philosophies as fact of the matter are not adopting anything less than a religion for themselves. However, if I had a nickle for every individual who's life was basically turned upside down by the AAP, who also have in no way sought monetary compensation or attention, we could most likely throw one hell of a paracast bash for the next year straight. This is a little more serious than some farmer claiming a pancake breakfast with aliens here. This AAP happens to people from every walk of life and nearly every profession conceivable. Some of these claimed abductees are some really distinguished people with a great deal to lose.

Something *is* happening. What that something is, I don't know but I have a hard time with "the people are just making it all up". I don't think so.

 

[Stagger Lee]

The '73 Pascagoula abduction has always held an interest for me. Two co-workers, years apart in age. We have the audio recording of the two discussing the event when left alone at the police dept. I'm convinced something strange happened to these guys.

 

[trainedobserver]

IMO, 100% probable *if* Greys exist to begin with.

I still have a hard time thinking that Greys, Reptilians, Mantis beings, and the like exist in any real sense. If real, I would tend to think they are radically different from the accepted notions of what they are and what they are doing as presented by popularized close encounter reports. I could be wrong of course, but that is where I'm at with it. If these things were real and operating as presented by the UFO sub-culture at large, then the world's military leadership are ignoring the greatest threat to humanity we have ever known. If you believe J.F.'s speculations about it, we are engaged in some protracted totally clandestine war against them already. I have a hard time with that though as well.

 

[Jeff Davis]

I still have a hard time thinking that Greys, Reptilians, Mantis beings, and the like exist in any real sense. If real, I would tend to think they are radically different from the accepted notions of what they are and what they are doing as presented by popularized close encounter reports. I could be wrong of course, but that is where I'm at with it. If these things were real and operating as presented by the UFO sub-culture at large, then the world's military leadership are ignoring the greatest threat to humanity we have ever known. If you believe J.F.'s speculations about it, we are engaged in some protracted totally clandestine war against them already. I have a hard time with that though as well.

It *is* completely absurd! The only problem, I just cannot imagine what's really happening apart from absurd speculations. It's a bang the head against the wall moment due to a complete lack of credulousness alone.

Who is J.F.?

 

[trainedobserver]

It *is* completely absurd! The only problem, I just cannot imagine what's really happening apart from absurd speculations. It's a bang the head against the wall moment due to a complete lack of credulousness alone.

Who is J.F.?

Dr. Joseph P. Farrell

 

[trainedobserver]

It *is* completely absurd! The only problem, I just cannot imagine what's really happening apart from absurd speculations. It's a bang the head against the wall moment due to a complete lack of credulousness alone.

This get back to the ETH or any other notion, hypothesis, or what have you out there.

There is no one-size fits all explanation.

 

[marduk]

It *is* completely absurd! The only problem, I just cannot imagine what's really happening apart from absurd speculations. It's a bang the head against the wall moment due to a complete lack of credulousness alone.

I don't think it's completely absurd at all.

I've had enough personal observations and weird crap in my life to think it's real. Of course that doesn't amount to a hill of beans as far as other people are concerned, but the bucket I put it into (given the fact that my weird crap seems to correlate loosely with a lot of other people's weird crap) is the "realistic" bucket.

I think what we may be witnessing is a kind of category error whereby we expect a authoritarian or sociological response from a group that isn't designed to have this kind of response. The army exists to repel invasionary forces, not individuals. The army doesn't come in to fight tourists that don't have a visa. Police exist to stop people from killing each other or damaging each other's property. They may or may not expel tourists that don't have the proper paperwork, but only if they try to go through secure checkpoints. Government exists to decide where tax dollars go to, create and repeal laws, and to decide how to interact with other nation states. Which of these would we expect a response from regarding a sparse series of baffling interactions with individual citizens? From weird craft (and perhaps occupants) that act more like baffling tourists than an invasionary or expeditionary force? Who ya gonna call?

Remember, these "others" are approaching us as individuals, not a society. What part of society is going to respond, except loose groupings of individuals with experiences, or fringe elements that have a passing interest or seek to leverage some individuals for personal gain?

Add this to the high likelihood that -- maybe -- the "other's" view of reality doesn't conform to ours. They may have no version of democracy, capitalism, and the like to relate to us to. They may be a hive mind, therefore only able to relate to the individual mind (because they are one individual mind with many components and we are one individual mind). Or they may have raw, realistic versions of "telepresence" like holography or direct mental stimulation whereby some or even many of the interactions happen at the direct mind level.

If that were the case, what kind of response would we expect from the government? The army? The police?

Pretty much what we're getting. A tangled, distorted, muddled, ineffective mess.

 

[Burnt State]

The '73 Pascagoula abduction has always held an interest for me. Two co-workers, years apart in age. We have the audio recording of the two discussing the event when left alone at the police dept. I'm convinced something strange happened to these guys.

I agree, the Pascagoula story is one of the very few that seems to make alien abduction a possibility. I posted some info about it here recently: [URL="https://www.theparacast.com/forum/threads/your-paracast-newsletter-march-2-2014.14742/#post-186536"]Your Paracast Newsletter — March 2, 2014[/URL]
There's a link there to the original audio recording of the two men directly following the incident. That's a very interesting bit of audio and their description of the carrot studded creature is also unique in the annals of ufology. This is a very odd story with one man talking about it to his grave, while the other refused to say 'boo'about it following the event. This is also one of those rare cases where we actually have description of going over the threshold into the ship compared to 99% of other alien abduction reports that do not contain threshold descriptions - these are always blanked out.

 

[marduk]

Let's create a simplistic model. Lets treat society at large As an organism. In this case, a human being.

A human being has receptors capable of receiving stimuli. Light waves between certain wavelengths, sound vibrations between certain wavelengths. Etc.

If you stimulate this human being outside these ranges you won't get a response at all. Chunking this back up to the level of society, what social level receptors is the UFO phenomenon going to trigger? None that I know of.

You may argue that social systems are adaptable enough to accept inputs within a broad tolerance of ranges otherwise society would die. So, let's explore the possibility that it's jangled a small nerve somewhere.

Let's go back to our model human being. If you stimulate it, the human being will naturally put this into one of three buckets: dangerous, advantageous, or neutral.

Ufos may be frightening to individuals, but in at least 50 years they haven't invaded or taken out society as we've known it. So apart from some early Sci fi fear mongering, they don't threaten society.

It's also a transient phenomenon that may be advantageous in terms of hardware, but hard to catch and even harder to prove it actually exists. So it's level of practical advantage is pretty small.

Which leaves us mostly in the neutral bucket I think.

What do human beings do with neutral stimuli? Ignore it for the most part. There's only one driver to look at neutral stimuli for a human being that I know of: curiosity or perhaps irritation.

So that's where we are at for the most part I think. Some small levels of curiosity at the the individual human level and even smaller levels at the society level.

No coordinated response.

 

[Jeff Davis]

I don't think it's completely absurd at all.

I've had enough personal observations and weird crap in my life to think it's real. Of course that doesn't amount to a hill of beans as far as other people are concerned, but the bucket I put it into (given the fact that my weird crap seems to correlate loosely with a lot of other people's weird crap) is the "realistic" bucket.

I think what we may be witnessing is a kind of category error whereby we expect a authoritarian or sociological response from a group that isn't designed to have this kind of response. The army exists to repel invasionary forces, not individuals. The army doesn't come in to fight tourists that don't have a visa. Police exist to stop people from killing each other or damaging each other's property. They may or may not expel tourists that don't have the proper paperwork, but only if they try to go through secure checkpoints. Government exists to decide where tax dollars go to, create and repeal laws, and to decide how to interact with other nation states. Which of these would we expect a response from regarding a sparse series of baffling interactions with individual citizens? From weird craft (and perhaps occupants) that act more like baffling tourists than an invasionary or expeditionary force? Who ya gonna call?

Remember, these "others" are approaching us as individuals, not a society. What part of society is going to respond, except loose groupings of individuals with experiences, or fringe elements that have a passing interest or seek to leverage some individuals for personal gain?

Add this to the high likelihood that -- maybe -- the "other's" view of reality doesn't conform to ours. They may have no version of democracy, capitalism, and the like to relate to us to. They may be a hive mind, therefore only able to relate to the individual mind (because they are one individual mind with many components and we are one individual mind). Or they may have raw, realistic versions of "telepresence" like holography or direct mental stimulation whereby some or even many of the interactions happen at the direct mind level.

If that were the case, what kind of response would we expect from the government? The army? The police?

Pretty much what we're getting. A tangled, distorted, muddled, ineffective mess.

My friend, it's unequivocally absurd with respect to human reason alone, and human reason is all we have. These are not tourists. These are not visitors. If they were either, they would most definitely be confronting society or civilization as a whole up front. Weird crap does not an alien make. However, hurting and dementing innocent people is not the work of benevolence in any shape or form.

(note, please do not mistake the humanoid encounter scenario for the AAP, two extremely different things, no relationship whatsoever)

In the AAP we are never dealing with individuals, apart from the experiencer themselves.

 

[marduk]

So just how much sperm and eggs do these greys, be they bio-bots or otherwise, actually need? The whole breeding program, hybrids, slow-motion takeover of the planet sounds entirely improbable. They've been at it for decades now supposedly with little to show for their efforts. What's much more likely is the fantasy world of humans includes mystical meetings and the odd mental sexual rendezvous with creatures from beyond. These are common historical mythologies and the repeated patterns with greys as told by Stan Romanek and other contactee hoaxers seem to be their own invention. Do we actually have any real verifiable cases of alien abduction or just really interesting witness reports, hypnosis induced narratives and then super confabulating like the Cortile case? What's next, are we also going to start entertaining implants as well?

What if the "breeding program" is operating at the hundreds or thousands of years time scale?
What if the "sperm and eggs" (god I want to write spam and eggs) is a metaphor for something else?
What if the whole narrative is our own mind overlaying onto what is actually happening something that our meat mind can understand?

 

[trainedobserver]

If alien abductions (for example) are taking place, it would seem highly probable that members of governments and military personal would be among the taken. Irregardless of anything else that might contribute to their threat status the fact that anyone in the command structure is being abducted and tampered with is most definitely a high security risk. The Intelligence apparatus simply could not ignore it. That it would not be addressed in an aggressive fashion is just inconceivable from any military or political standpoint that I can realistically come up with. Does that mean it isn't happening? I don't know what it means, but just nothing about it, from angle you choose, makes a whole lot of sense.