Are there Forum Rules?

[Kim323]

After the bruising battle on the Jesus thread, I really would like to ask the administrators if there are any rules as to posting. I went back through the whole thread, trying to see where it went wrong so it got so vile. It may sound self-serving, but I see it starting out as fact based, but when two particular members began to be challenged with opposing facts, the posts began by them to be more personal against Christians, and just plain personal. I reread everything, I saw my own rising frustration, I made accusations of not discussing fairly, of not giving equal time by reading and responding or even acknowledging my own suggestions, I tried and tried to stick to the subject of the thread. I don't claim perfection. But I just think some things went beyond the pale when a particular group began to be attacked on a very personal and vile basis, because arguing the facts became frustrating as these two posters were challenged. I found the attacks to be more and more personal against Christians and me as a Christian. I saw that I had apart from the beginning just mentioning that I was Christian, I had not approached the subject from that perspective, and kept repeating that I was trying to argue facts. Here are some things I just consider beyond the line, in no special order of chronology or significance, just off the top of my head and in rereading and getting some quotes. Now, to me, the key thing is NOT that these things were said to come from the Bible. The clear intent was to make these practices modern and apply to the Christians who are YOUR OWN relatives, friends, colleagues, fellow posters, the man and woman next door or up the street, the people sitting in a congregation, and on and on and on. These things were said to hurt, to demean and ridicule, and to ignore that no one disputes that the Bible has some unsavory elements, that it was written by men, that anyone reading a history of the huge thing that is the Christian church over many, many centuries would deny that the church, and the churches, have perpetuated horrors. It can also be said that history shows that the Christian church(es) has been torn apart, examined internally and externally, and has changed, and is still growing. I say this as someone who has truly studied, researched, and taught these things over many decades. Having said this, these things were said to malign personally, to fold up in one cloth, your neighbors, your relatives, as I said above. Christians are
1. misogynous and cruel to women
2. racists
3. they currently burn and beat
4. stupid and gullible
5. part of a mob
6. conned
7. white folks
8. indoctrinators of children
9. damaging to children who attend church
10. suffering from a disease of superstition
11. bigots and spreaders of bigotry
12. sexist
13. child abusers and killers
14. murderers
15. I could go on and on. These things are directly stated as applying to modern Christians, me, you, your neighbors, etc.
Quotes:
1. "people like Kim, part of a howling mob that put people like me to death"
2. "oh, we can say it was the "church" but its power came from the individual, people like Kim"
3. this member's view of himself: "to speak up on behalf of all those who were executed by this cult for seeing the truth and saying they did"
4. this member is "the doctor administering the cure, it feels good"
5. "people like Kim leering at me as I burned"
6. "I remember the burning times. I don't forgive and forget."
7. Concerning Lot in the Bible, but clearly meant for me, your neighbors, in modern times, right next door: "As a home brewer I can atest (sic) to the old adage too drunk to FFF fornicate......." and on and on, and then, "Try running that one up the flagpole of the local magistrate 'Yes your honour, I did get both my daughters pregnant, but....'"
I could go on and on. No group deserves this. It was not to point out acknowledged crimes in the Bible, it was to attack a group currently existing. Again, I got personal myself as it pertained to criticizing these things above, for getting off the topic, for not addressing the points I made, but I never got this personal. I chided, I made fun of, I got frustrated, I pointed out this and that, but I never got vile. I just wonder if there are any rules at all. Kim

 

[Angel of Ioren]

You can find the forum rules at the link below. In fact, you had to sign off on them when you joined:

Terms of Service and Rules | The Paracast Community Forums

 

[mike]

As if there wasnt enough drama in the jesus thread, you whip up this rubbish
And its a classic case of unable to refute or discuss the data, you try and twist it into something personal.
You are now attacking the persons who posted the data, but refuse to discuss the data itself.
I tried to keep the discussion civil, but from my pov it was you who gleefully started in with the personal attacks.

As you say

I got personal myself

Thats right you did, and you are not entitled to a better standard of treatment than that you yourself bring to the table.

And here you are again, twisting the facts and playing victim for the sole purpose of inciting more drama......
Unable to address the data, you stoop to attacking the people who present it.

By your own admission your own behaviour was wrong, and like a hypocrite you start another drama thread with your Baaaaaw and Boo hoo hoo

Yes the bible does depict and promote murder, mass murder, rape, incest ,slavery, sexism and a whole lot of other atrocious behavior.
Unable to refute that, you try and spin it into an attack on you in the hopes you can use the rules to suppress these facts....... why am i not surprised

As Angel said the rules are not hard to find, and you signed off on them when you joined, this thread is about twisting the truth, so's to make the data presented look like a personal attack in order to suppress them.

If i point out the bible promotes the taking of sex slaves

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

Then Kim will say as a christian thats a personal attack, he must therefore not post such data........

Its a pretty transparent ploy

As a christian he seeks to twist any negative data i quote from the bible as a personal attack, and thus suppress the quoting of such data.

Its the same tactic that had galileo put under house arrest, The truth can be twisted into a charge of heresy

 

[Goggs Mackay]

Some posters know me as anti-religion full stop. Having said that, half my family are practising christians - but there are many types and levels of christianity. Many things in the past were barbaric and unrelated to the Bible. Many obviously silly things are done right now in the name of the Bible but not by all of it's followers - many of whom question the same things in the Bible that I do!
If you are into christianity because you think there are good teachings, it makes you want to improve yourself and treatment of others.....go for it. No argument from me.
If you think every letter of the Bible is the literal translation of the word of God.....then I think you are deranged. Possibly worse.

Kim - I'm not interested in attacking christians because exactly as you said, they are my cousins and aunts etc and I love them dearly. They are good people (better than I) and they don't believe every word of the Bible e.g the age of the Earth.

Having said that, if one accepts the Bible was written by men who mostly did not know eachother - then at what point did the whole thing become some rule book supposedly ultimately authored by God and not a book on how to live by man's interpretations of God's rules?
To me it can only be really from God or it is not. There can be no in-between stage as I don't believe an all powerful God would decide to give such a book to mankind, but write only some of it and leave the rest to whoever was lucky enough to be literate and educated at the time and wanted to chime in. The hand of man being so in it's creation leaves me thinking not. This is all just my personal opinion.
Also, while I'm on a personal roll.........does no one else wonder why these books were seemingly only given to a small area of the world that happened to be the most advanced. For centuries more many in the world had zero chance to learn about Jesus etc. Why did God forsake these people in not giving them the same info as he 'did' in the Middle East? I could go on and on but unless you are a 'Bible is literal word of God' person, this is not aimed at you. I see it as perfectly reasonable to try to be a christian even if thing don't all add up in the Bible. It's only when these people claim it is the only truth....blah blah blah.......you get the picture.

 

[trainedobserver]

The only two rules worth mentioning are to use paragraph breaks and not to let your feelings get hurt. If you post walls of text they are probably not going to be read as completely by everyone as you might like.

If you let your feelings get hurt then emotion is going to cloud your thinking and before you know it you'll be hammering away IN ALL CAPS FROM A STANDING POSITION SHOUTING OUT EACH WORD IN A ROBOTIC STACCATO and those around you may become unduly alarmed. [Gets up, and yells down the hall, "NO! I'm not yelling at you I'm yelling at the damn computer!" "Yes, again!"]

 

[tyder001]

The only two rules worth mentioning are to use paragraph breaks and not to let your feelings get hurt. If you post walls of text they are probably not going to be read as completely by everyone as you might like.

U R Kerect. Also, link after link after link. I do respect and still identify as a "liberal" Christian. I call myself a Christian agnostic because I know the bible was and is a series of writings. orally handed down from generation to generation. It was not "written" and handed down whole cloth. I find much worth in the idea of love incarnate participating in the hope and tragedy of his/her/spirit/universe fellow creatures. True love is not when you can pull somebody out of a burning building. That is love and that is great. But, true love is when you can't get them out so you decide to stay in the building with them while it burns. That is what Christ incarnating means to me. Do, I mean it literally? I'm afraid I lost my literal dogma a long time ago. The bible is full of politics and prejudice. Also, full of wisdom and the person of Christ has inspired and given hope to countless people. I do think the evidence during the discussion came down on the side of the fact that the evidence for Jesus walking the earth is very strong. Sadly, for whatever reason it deteriorated to a denigration of religion in general and Christianity in particular. I have argued with Mike and I do find that he is passionate and if he feels he's right he will hold his ground and damn the torpedo's Kim seems to be a very thoughtful and intelligent person and kind of got caught up in the middle. Stoneheart also seems very intelligent and was frustrated (it seemed to me) by posting his thoughts and work and then having to defend the veracity of them. Look, the point is I learned a great lesson myself. Although, this is a really good forum. The folks here are just as likely to put on their blinders and defend their territory no matter what as they are anywhere else. As a certain book says "we all heap teachers to our own ears." I give people who have faith credit for coming here. It's hard to put your innermost hopes and dream out there and have somebody else tear the hell out of em. It's much easier to go to the Randi forum if your an athiest or the Christianity Today forum if your a Christian and get a pat on the back. It's harder to put it out there and suffer the slings and arrows of alternative beliefs and ideas. So, I'm done with the links attacking Christianity and the links attacking the ones who are attacking and the back and forth on personal religious belief. But, I found myself acting silly and butt hurt on a similar thread. I'm gonna try to not make that mistake again. I will defend your right to post and debate whatever you want to. However, I will also retain my right to move along when I think it's gotten to personal or silly. Kim, take it from somebody who knows. It's time to move on from this topic. I agree that faith is something that should and does give hope. I and I'm sure you have taken this journey and a few arrows on the internet doesn't invalidate a lifetime of hope and study. So, to all of you I appreciate the opportunity to discuss stuff around here that my own family and friends won't talk about with me. Here I can talk about my interest in aliens and u.f.o.'s and religion and reincarnation and the paranormal. It's fun and it's interesting and even educational. The best part is some very intelligent folks have challenged and continue to challenge me. Yet so far my worldview and hope and inner life remains intact. Peace.
Steve.

 

[Kim323]

I agree, Tyder. And Trained, as a teacher, I agree with you on paragraphing! And I understand your questions, too, Goggsmackay, and I don't pretend I have all the answers.
I guess what actually was the precipitating thing on my post above was the racial comments on portrayals of Jesus, not what was linked to per se, the two pictures on the Jesus thread, because I remember seeing the second picture in an article, and thinking, hey, that Jesus is a good-lookin' guy, too. No one took any pictures of Jesus. It was the comment that was not part of something embedded, the "by White folks to make him appealing to the target audience." Now, I'm no politically correct pain in the butt, believe me! It just brought a new element into it. I was a teacher in the Peace Corps right out of college, and I have two sons who are mixed race, and believe me, those two guys are handsome fellows! I never saw a need, nor do I see Christians, who if you added them up are composed in huge part of people of non-white lineage, having a need in my opinion to focus on a white Jesus as portrayed in the first picture and with such negative emphasis.
Jesus was indeed Semitic. And I would wager that he was olive skinned and black haired, with Semitic features (whatever they are, really!). The whole region of Judaea for centuries, from way back and especially since Alexander the Great, had been Hellenized (Greekified, to create a word!). The Romans had ruled the area for some years, too, and Alex's generals began whole dynasties in the huge area of his conquests after his death. You know, Cleopatra was of Macedonian lineage, a descendant of Ptolemy, one of Alex's generals. So, I don't know what Jesus looked like exactly, of course not. I just don't think it matters to the extent that his portrayal as more "white" is some sort of "white folks" conspiracy. Additionally, I collect fine art prints, especially of the "old masters" as they are known, El Greco, Botticelli, Tiepolo, and gosh, on and on. In centuries of art I have seen, Jesus certainly isn't portrayed as overly "white," certainly not to the extent as the first picture posted to buttress the "white folks" stance.
I, too, Tyder, am a liberal Christian. I will say that I am very, very liberal socially: I don't care if two women marry each other, I'm a staunch advocate of stem cell research, I believe in birth control, and on and on. But I'm no knee-jerk liberal. I believe in a strong national defense. One of my sons served in Iraq. The other was mobilized from the reserves. I don't agree with the wars we got into, but I'm proud of my sons who served honorably and are now engineers with advanced degrees. I disagree with the Catholic church on stem cell research and birth control, but I also see the good the churches have done, of all stripes, in the world, and yes, for centuries. No one knows more than I do the political and doctrinal stuff that's gone on in the church over the centuries. The English and European Reformation(s) are enough alone to keep you busy. Arguing over the extent to which the substance of Jesus is in the communion wafer or bread occupied a lot of pages among scholars and church people over the centuries. The Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation was a raw point that caused a lot of cruelty on both sides during the Reformation, but the argument can also be seen as imperfect men wrestling with deep concerns. I don't ridicule these people for thinking so much about it. The Catholic doctrine of the Assumption, where the church in the 1950s made official that Mary had been bodily assumed into heaven, may sound silly and worthy of ridicule, but it's not that easy.
Ok, I gotta end! I see that the Jesus thread is now about Noah, and yes, I'm laughing! I think the posts are funny. I don't take the whole Bible literally, and boy, can I laugh. For a real riot read Mark Twain's, gosh I forgot the title of the essays, Letters from the Earth, I think it was. He pokes fun at the whole Noah thing, and tears will be running down your faces. The part about why did God for Heaven's sake allow Noah to take two flies aboard the ark, when look at all the misery and suffering the fly has caused humankind. No one can make it so funny as Twain. Kim

 

[mike]

You totally missd the point of my jesus as a white guy post.

Depicting jesus as white, when he wasnt, is a lie, its a con, its a marketing exercise.

Most people even today, think of jesus as white, That image is a fiction, it was designed to "trick" The target audience into identifying with the image.

False advertising for what even judasim states is a false messiah.

Jews have traditionally seen Jesus as one of a number of false messiahs who have appeared throughout history.[1] Jesus is viewed as having been the most influential, and consequently the most damaging, of all false messiahs

Judaism's view of Jesus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Its just one facet of the great lie that is the jesus is messiah fable.

The bible can be shown to be no more than a long list of fairytales, the jesus fable included.

And as usual no one provides a shred of evidence, not a single link to refute not a single point made in support of that premise.

Just more apologists waffle

I do think the evidence during the discussion came down on the side of the fact that the evidence for Jesus walking the earth is very strong

Proving the adage there are none so blind......., there was no evidence presented for jesus walking the earth, just faith based insistance he did, the evidence presented by me and others was that he did not, and is just another biblical fairytale with no basis in reality

 

[tyder001]

Have to agree to disagree on this one. I will say that Bart E. wins the day with his book so far. Not that I agree with everything in the book or everything he believes. But, he did do his homework. But, as I said he is agnostic and certainly not a bible thumper. I know these forums get heated but at the end of the day, as a wise woman I once knew said: You may yell louder than me. You may or may not be bigger than me. (hard to tell on an internet site) But, at the end of the day when we walk away. I'm still right, and you are still wrong!

 

[tyder001]

This forum has a lot of gotcha since the religion subject came up. Wow!

 

[mike]

Actually bart makes my point, that the gospels contain fiction

Bart D Ehrman: Parts of Bible's New Testament written by 'pretend apostles' | Mail Online

Parts of the Bible were written by people who lied about their identity, an author has claimed.

Bart D Ehrman claims many books of the New Testament were forged by people pretending to be the apostles Peter, Paul or James.

Writing in the Huffington Post, Professor Ehrman, best selling author of 'Misquoting Jesus' and 'Jesus, Interrupted', said religious scholars were well aware of the 'lies' of the Bible.

While some were happy to acknowledge them others refer to them as 'pseudepigrapha' - meaning a falsely attributed work -, he wrote.

In his new book , Why the Bible's Authors Are Not Who We Think They Are, Professor Ehrman claims The Second Epistle of Peter - or 2 Peter - was forged

Professor Ehrman also claims the author of the book of 1 Timothy claimed to be Paul but in actual fact was someone living after Paul had died.

The author then used the apostle's name to address a problem he saw in church, according to Professor Ehrman.

'Women were speaking out, exercising authority and teaching men. That had to stop,' he writes.

Agenda: Professor Erhman claims whoever wrote 1 Timothy was trying to put women in their place by citing the garden of Eden as an example of what can happen when women are in charge

'The author told women to be silent and submissive, and reminded his readers about what happened the first time a woman was allowed to exercise authority over a man, in that little incident in the garden of Eden.

'No, the author argued, if women wanted to be saved, they were to have babies (1 Tim. 2:11-15).'

Paul is known as one of history's great misogynists, largely based on this passage from the Bible.

But Professor Ehrman argues this label is not necessarily justified because he wasn't the one to write it.

'And why does it matter? Because the passage is still used by church leaders today to oppress and silence women,' writes Professor Ehrman.

'Why are there no women priests in the Catholic Church? Why are women not allowed to preach in conservative evangelical churches? Why are there churches today that do not allow women even to speak?

'In no small measure it is because Paul allegedly taught that women had to be silent, submissive and pregnant.

'Except that the person who taught this was not Paul, but someone lying about his identity so that his readers would think he was Paul.'

Professor Ehrman then goes on to write how the Bible is actually filled with the need for 'truth' but many of its writers were telling a lie.

Refresh my memory mate, how do forgeries and lies = jesus was real

 

[tyder001]

I agree the bible has fiction. Politics, myth, inspiration, racism, hope, bad behaviour. It's a very human book I'm not a biblical literalist. I have found great inspiration and have some favorite verses. But, I've also read things in it and thought WTF? I'm mainly concerned with my own inner life and my own abilty to make sense out of this world. I'm a heretic big time when it comes to Christianity. I just try to be objective and honest with myself. I am holistic in my beliefs. Matter of fact I recommend Karen Armstrong and other authors. Elaine Pagels is another good one as is Sir John Polikinghome or however ya spell it.

 

[mike]

I agree the bible has fiction. Politics, myth, inspiration, racism, hope, bad behaviour. It's a very human book I'm not a biblical literalist. I have found great inspiration and have some favorite verses. But, I've also read things in it and thought WTF? I'm mainly concerned with my own inner life and my own abilty to make sense out of this world. I'm a heretic big time when it comes to Christianity. I just try to be objective and honest with myself. I am holistic in my beliefs. Matter of fact I recommend Karen Armstrong and other authors. Elaine Pagels is another good one as is Sir John Polikinghome or however ya spell it.

Not just fiction, but outright lies, lies designed to manipulate and deceive.......
and despite the obvious fairytales

World made in 6 days
Adam and lilith from clay
Eve from adams rib
Noah and impossible ark
Jonah and his whale
The talking ass Numbers chapter 22

And despite no contemporary records of jesus

And Ehrman's assertion there are forgeries and outright lies in the gospel.....

Suddenly on a backdrop of obvious fables and fiction, which to your credit you recognise, you suddenly drop all critical thinking and claim that

A guy born of a virgin, who could walk on water, cure the blind, raise the dead, turn water into wine, feed thousands from two loaves and 5 fishes, who then died and came back to life....

Is not a fable but an actual real person who did these things ?

This hoax has been debunked, if you cant see that....... as they say there are none so blind as those who will not see

 

[Goggs Mackay]

@Tyder - yes mate, I remember last time the religion thing got a bit heated! - Excellent post about it being an exposed position to put oneself into (admitting faith in this forum) - even though I strongly disagree with religion, I recognise a strength of character in someone willing to come on and take the inevitable hits.

@Kim - I thought, as you have now stated, that your were the type of christian who does not literally believe in every word of the Bible. I realise you do not ignore inconsistencies and conflicting or silly stories. Perhaps you have just chosen a 'flavour' of faith that suits you because there is no denying it, humans on the whole seem to want to believe in a god. The bottom line that no-one can argue with is that if being a christian helps your life more than it hinders it then I can not argue against that one bit!

mike - I doubt we could run a visa card between our two views on religion!

My own point on this whole topic can be summed up in the question, 'is there any need for organised religions?'
Why can't people just believe in god and act as they think such a good would prefer them too? Why does anyone need anyone else to tell them how, where and what to worship?
The numbers of non-Abrahamic religious followers in the world is huge. I cannot for a second think that there are competing 'all powerful' gods (cos they would not then be all powerful) having their own 'brand' (thanks mike) of religion. They are utterly mutually exclusive. So either they are all wrong, or one is right. I kinda go with the former.
And again, I cannot accept 'god' would allow his words, intended for mankind, to be toyed with, added to, deleted, omitted, hidden by any man. But that is undoubtedly what the Bible has been through. Perhaps I am being too closed minded but for me, it either is totally correct and true, or completely made up. The evidence for me is strongly on it being made up. So who are christians really following? God? Or what some men painted as a picture of God in their image, not his.


If you take away the TV evangelists (all), the door-knockers, the extremists and the war-mongers, then yes indeed, there are still millions of good people doing good things in the name of christianity. No doubt, there is a lot of good done - I only question if the religion part is a pre-requisite for some to bother doing good. If you choose to help your fellow man because you think it's the right thing to do and not what is expected of you as a christian - well that just jives easier with me. Some, and only some, have this 'holier than thou' attitude as if being not religious I am lacking something, morally corrupt or even evil.
I give money to charity, I have volunteered to staff a recreation place for those with mental illness. I've successfully performed CPR on a complete stranger and I will stop and ask if someone is OK if it looks like they are not.......in short, I often feel that some people only do certain things because they worry that all their deeds and misdeeds are gonna be weighed against eachother when they die. You don't need a religion to be a good person.
I realise those who have expressed their faith here are people I do not know personally so I would not presume to judge the kind of life they live. Is faith a safety-net, I mean, when people lose it, does that mean that they are likely to alter their behaviour for the worse? If not, is there any need for the faith? Because I certainly think faith is a need in some, not a choice as such. Does one need faith to be the best they can be?

The god I would despise the most is the one who wants us supplicant at his great feet heaping him praise. You know what people say about those who seek to be praised and have attention lavished upon them? Would an all powerful being create a race of intelligent animals so they can enjoy life but only if they constantly thank him for something they didn't ask for in the first place?
I think there may be well an 'intelligence' behind the universe. Physics doesn't totally explain everything and probably never will. I have 'faith' the universe is strange, beautiful and pretty darn cool. If some intelligence is behind it, then cool. I just don't believe he hired a pile of guys centuries ago to write things down for us all to follow. I just don't buy it. Sorry!

And relax........

 

[trainedobserver]

Have to agree to disagree on this one. I will say that Bart E. wins the day with his book so far. Not that I agree with everything in the book or everything he believes.

Long time miss'n her, first time Russian trawler.

You've read the book Steve?

Does he believe that the N.T. represents the life of a single person that we've tagged "Jesus" in the Western world?

How does he differentiate between real world events and imaginary or symbolic ones in the gospel narrative?

I'll take my ants off with nair.

 

[dyingsun]

Oh , (all of) you.

 

[Sentry]

Is this what they mean by "thread drift"? I'm pretty sure I saw an existing debate thread about Jesus- maybe an administrator can merge the two?

 

[trainedobserver]

Everyone would do well to remember:

1. This is a forum about paranormal subjects. There will be kookiness. Don't go to the fish market and not expect to smell fish.
2. Talk about ideas rather than other posters.
3. Have realistic expectations of other posters. They didn't come here for an education, they came for a discussion and may not feel compelled to read lengthy references.
4. A poster's behavior toward other posters and their own intellectual honesty or the lack there of, speaks more about an individual's spiritual state, beliefs, or religion than anything they will directly say about it or reference in the forum.
5. Knee-jerk responses (even when the come in the form of walls of text or references) tend to be ill-advised.

 

[trainedobserver]

This forum has a lot of gotcha since the religion subject came up. Wow!

I'm sure someone innocently brought the subject up in a purely uncontroversial fashion. [cough, cough]

 

[tyder001]