Travis Walton - September 21, 2014

[manxman]

I miss those quiet winter evenings infront of the fire, the whole family sharpening their pitchforks, to keep you city folk out.

 

[Jimi H.]

Ok, I'm 'going there' folks, real debunking biz. Two quotes, the first a repeat from Ufology's article:

.. in May of 1971, Walton had plead guilty to stealing payroll cheques and forging signatures in order to cash them. So the picture suddenly becomes one of an admitted fraud trying to gain UFO related media exposure who then just happens to go missing, only to resurface claiming to be a victim of alien abduction.

Then another quote from Walton himself, from an excerpt of his book on the illustrious website Latter-day Saint Characters in Movies:

Even in a town where the smallest incidents are reported (unlike cities where people are so jaded they often don't even bother to report being the victims of major crimes), Snowflake still has an astonishingly low crime rate. A rash of broken windows can make the local newspaper. Although drug abuse used to be virtually nonexistent here, we still have the lowest incidence in the state. Some of the kids may complain that "nothing ever happens here," but their parents say, "Thank heavens for that."

Class A bullshitter

And then this for good measure:

Take a sleepy little Western town steeped in conservative, traditional values. Drop into its midst an event so shocking, so anomalous, that by its very nature it challenged conventional beliefs and attitudes, at the same time being impossible to dismiss, demanding to be confronted. That, pardner, was the makings of some serious turmoil. ..

He seems very aware of what he's doing, and has a flair for drama.

That's going to my personal explanation (surprise!), though it is always perplexing when people act convincing, in their speech and in their stories, yet you don't believe them.

..I'll have to find it and see which crew member it was- but this interview really made an impression on me, when the guy broke down and described his fear of one day looking out a window to find a saucer hanging around. If indeed he is still covering a known hoax, that was some damn fine acting.

I know what you mean, it's strange. It's basically also the only reason I feel I can't be sure it was just a hoax, either.

 

[Stagger Lee]

By the 1990's, the general public had become aware of forensic examining clothing. I was way too young in the mid 70's to know if folks would have had the idea to preserve clothing- such as police dept's were doing with crime scene articles. Perhaps it was common to overlook this detail in 1975? I would love to know if Travis was approached soon after his return and asked by anyone if his clothing could be taken and sealed for lab testing.

 

[Jimi H.]

By the 1990's, the general public had become aware of forensic examining clothing. I was way too young in the mid 70's to know if folks would have had the idea to preserve clothing- such as police dept's were doing with crime scene articles. Perhaps it was common to overlook this detail in 1975? I would love to know if Travis was approached soon after his return and asked by anyone if his clothing could be taken and sealed for lab testing.

I agree, that would have been a great question! I imagine the reply is pretty predictable though, that they didn't think of such things at the time. But one could poke him with that quote, where he explains they were not stupid hillbillies living in the 50ies.

Can we get some more senior commentators here, was it common knowledge in the mid-70ies that crime scene investigations would involve looking for hair, fiber etc. or microbial traces in clothes?

Didn't Sherlock Holmes know about these things though? I may be jumping the gun here, but I took it for granted that such methods are old news when it comes to (crime scene) investigations?

 

[Stagger Lee]

Certainly, a good investigator in any time period would dissect clothing to match fibers and trace the victims last places visited- or match and link these fibers to a certain carpet or even tree. These techniques would be useless if trying to place someone in an unknown craft. However, forensic investigators in the 70's did have the thought of preserving crime scene articles. We have seen such items used to crack cold cases, even free innocent prisoners who had been serving long sentences.
I'm curious if any of the known investigators tried to secure Travis' clothing. Having seen Fire in the Sky in theatres back in '93- DB Sweeney made his sudden appearance with no clothes at all. I suppose I just assumed all these years that had been the case when Travis showed up after his 5 days missing.

 

[Jimi H.]

Certainly, a good investigator in any time period would dissect clothing to match fibers and trace the victims last places visited- or match and link these fibers to a certain carpet or even tree. These techniques would be useless if trying to place someone in an unknown craft.

I guess, unless completely unknown microbial lifeforms were present (like alien bacteria), or perhaps if some weird medical substance had dripped onto his clothes or whatever.

I'm curious if any of the known investigators tried to secure Travis' clothing. Having seen Fire in the Sky in theatres back in '93- DB Sweeney made his sudden appearance with no clothes at all. I suppose I just assumed all these years that had been the case when Travis showed up after his 5 days missing.

Ahh ok, I forgot the details tbh., hadn't really considered if the clothes were some that were supposedly given to him after the fact.

 

[Stagger Lee]

I haven't read Travis' book, but I get the impression from recent Paracast that he was not in the condition the movie portrays, when waking from his 5 days missing. The film shows him naked, and completely freaked out when his people found him huddled next to a building(?)
Travis only said that he "came to" dehydrated with a headache, nothing like his character in the film. That leaves me to believe he was still wearing the same clothing during those 5 days, and what a shame that no one had the sense to preserve these articles for future lab testing.

 

[mike_thoth]

I agree with Gene, why should Walton disclose so much data on his private life? It seems clear to me over the years, interviews, TV shows, articles & his books that the whole affair was detrimental to his family & friends. Any evidence whatsoever that the crew were lying & trying to make a buck, or getting publicity would have been a criminal offence. Even if this was true & they thought they would make money by hoaxing this, what examples would they have looked to where the hoaxers made money?

Phillip Klass, arch skeptic &"debunker", I would never quote. His leaps of logic, his pathological attacks on Walton, & let's not forget James McDonald are legend, for their lack of scientific facts, blatant false claims & logical fallacies that would have made Aristotle turn in his grave. Let's not forget that Klass never attempted to contact Walton, but paid someone to take him to the site. He took the youngest crew member to dinner & offered him $10,000 to admit a hoax. He refused of course.

In my estimation (which may or may not be wrong) Walton experienced something that he & all the crew believe happened the way described. The scrutiny he lived through, the pressure to admit a hoax, the threats to put them all in prison must have been unbearable. If a hoax, then the crew would have all have to learn to pass polygraphs. Walton failed a test on that TV show for good reason I suggest reviewing his statements on this.

Then the physical evidence comes into play, the wood fibre anomalies in the trees near the object & the radiation readings which were never followed up.

I think he's on the level, just my opinion. Don't know what to make of his recalled experiences but unique they are.

I don't post very often here but I am often confused as to the hostility towards some guests & the accusations & critiques levelled towards Gene & Chris. They can't be all things to all people but they do a good job week in week out.
Michael

 

[Christopher O'Brien]

I agree with Gene, why should Walton disclose so much data on his private life? It seems clear to me over the years, interviews, TV shows, articles & his books that the whole affair was detrimental to his family & friends… I don't post very often here but I am often confused as to the hostility towards some guests & the accusations & critiques levelled towards Gene & Chris. They can't be all things to all people but they do a good job week in week out.

I totally agree, Michael. I've known Travis for many years and have never seen even the slightest wobble that would indicate that he (and the other witnesses) are, and/or have been lying.

As to your confusion around the hostility and nitpicking that Gene & I (and some of our guests) endure, the "accusations and critiques," well it comes with the territory. I know, we make it look easy—consistently booking top quality guests—asking probing questions and hosting this busy, top shelf forum populated by many real thinkers and analysts. Need I mention to some of the naysaying detractors to whom you refer—if they think we're so lame, let's see YOUR shows and forums! We make it look easy, but believe me, its impossible to be 'all things to all people!' Thanks for your comment.

 

[Constance]

I agree with Gene, why should Walton disclose so much data on his private life? It seems clear to me over the years, interviews, TV shows, articles & his books that the whole affair was detrimental to his family & friends. Any evidence whatsoever that the crew were lying & trying to make a buck, or getting publicity would have been a criminal offence. Even if this was true & they thought they would make money by hoaxing this, what examples would they have looked to where the hoaxers made money?

Phillip Klass, arch skeptic &"debunker", I would never quote. His leaps of logic, his pathological attacks on Walton, & let's not forget James McDonald are legend, for their lack of scientific facts, blatant false claims & logical fallacies that would have made Aristotle turn in his grave. Let's not forget that Klass never attempted to contact Walton, but paid someone to take him to the site. He took the youngest crew member to dinner & offered him $10,000 to admit a hoax. He refused of course.

In my estimation (which may or may not be wrong) Walton experienced something that he & all the crew believe happened the way described. The scrutiny he lived through, the pressure to admit a hoax, the threats to put them all in prison must have been unbearable. If a hoax, then the crew would have all have to learn to pass polygraphs. Walton failed a test on that TV show for good reason I suggest reviewing his statements on this.

Then the physical evidence comes into play, the wood fibre anomalies in the trees near the object & the radiation readings which were never followed up.

I think he's on the level, just my opinion. Don't know what to make of his recalled experiences but unique they are.

I don't post very often here but I am often confused as to the hostility towards some guests & the accusations & critiques levelled towards Gene & Chris. They can't be all things to all people but they do a good job week in week out.
Michael

Excellent post. I want to second everything you've said.

 

[mike_thoth]

Thanks for the support on my comments. I feel they are fair. Although I listen to the Paracast each week (superb list of guests over the past month or so) I tend not to post because of the shouting back & forth, as well as the belief systems that come about. This is why I enjoy the show, Chris HAS done the leg work, he has gone out into the field. He nor Gene pontificate from an armchair & setting up a radio show with good production values is no easy task in a normal environment, but paranormal, almost impossible to keep it fresh & interesting. Gene & Chris, good work guys & there are far more grateful people out there who appreciate the effort! You pull off a minor miracle each week, congratulations.

Michael

 

[Randall]

Ok, I'm 'going there' folks, real debunking biz ...

Jimi, the Walton believers are obviously working from a high degree of personal bias and/or are focused on personalities and drama rather than the facts. There's no way to be rational with these people about this case; but it will be to their sheer joy I'm sure, that I'll be taking a leave of absence from the forum. I'll just leave these closing comments here regarding the Walton interview:

In the preamble to the Marc Dantonio show Chis says that Paracast gives guests,

"... enough leeway to state their opinions, state their experiences, and then we would follow up with what we would like to think are probing hard hitting questions."
​

IMO there were no ( zero ) probing and hard hitting questions, and the one question that I asked was watered down and distorted to the point of nothing more than setting up an anti-skeptic platform rather than the gathering of any facts. Then they went on to downplay Walton's failed lie detector test on Moment of Truth, from which Walton still walked away with $25,000 ( conveniently not mentioned ). Gene seemed unaware that the test was conducted by an examiner using established protocols before Walton actually appeared on the show.

Then Chris asks: "what point is trying to ascertain the truth when a person has been saying the same thing for almost 40 years? His story has never wavered. The stories of the others have never wavered."​

I guess Chris didn't bother looking at the discrepancies between some Walton's statements and the contradictory evidence that I posted in my earlier commentary. But while we're at it let's just add another tasty tidbit to the mix. As reported on Before It's News by Jeffery Pritchett of The Church Of Mabus radio show:

"This morning after some unforeseen discussion regarding the Stan Romanek case. I had a chance to talk to Steve Pierce one of the experiencers from the Travis Walton case. Steve was in the truck with Travis when the supposed UFO encounter happened. You might all know this story also from the great film Fire in the Sky. I was surprised to learn from Steve that him and Travis were at odds with one another. Steve also said that Travis Walton was mind controlled and never left the truck at all on that infamous night via himself. Travis apparently says he walks out and goes to the UFO. Steve instead saying the aliens telepathically took him out. Also telling me about Travis telling him to say certain things at conferences to make Travis look better or smarter. I was also surprised to find out Steve and Travis don’t really like each other at all. I didn’t know this and quite honestly I didn’t ask to be put in this situation of reporting this."​

So much for consistency, and like I said before, there is even more if one takes the time to dig. Then Chris goes on to say:

"nobody has ever come forward with any information or any sort of insinuation that they knew that it was a hoax because of X."​

I guess Chris must have missed the article: Sherrif’s nephew claims Travis Walton Hoax well known? There's plenty of "insinuation" there I think. But there's still more inconsistency. Right at the start Chris says, "Travis doesn't do many radio shows." I guess that we can say that the word "many" is fairly subjective. How many is "many"? We weren't able to get a number from Travis himself because Chris fudged my question to Walton, but maybe if we take a quick look online:

Some Radio or Podacasts​

- 2013, Dec 07: Audio: Hot Leads Cold Cases
- 2014, Feb 04: Radio: Good American on DigRadioBoston
- 2014, Aug 01: Audio: Fade To Black Bespoke Radio
- 2014, Sep 02: Audio: West of The Rockies
- 2014, Sep 21: Radio: Paracast
- 2014, Sep 22: Audio: The Ænigma Project LIVE talk radio!
- 2014, Sep 23: Audio: The People Speak Radio

I wouldn't be surprised to find that he's done even more than those above, the last three being three days in a row. I've been in ufology for 20+ years and done maybe 3 shows total. Now let's add a few in-person events from the past year:

- 2014 Aug 8-11: Contact in the Desert
- 2014 Jul 29, 2014: Ramtha's School of Enlightenment
- 2014 May 16-18, 2014 Fórum Mundial de Contatados
- 2014 April 26, 2014: MUFON PA—Erie UFO Conference
- 2014 April 16, 2014: Yuma Center for Spiritual Living
- 2014 Apr 11-13, 2014: Ozark Mountain UFO Conference
- 2014 Mar 22, 2014: Close Encounters Research Organization (CERO)
- 2014 Mar 9, 2014: Lecture & Book Signing - Windhaven R.V. Park Clubhouse
- 2014 Mar 8, 2014: Lecture & Book Signing - Yuma County Library Foothills Branch
- 2014 Jan 25: Del Rio UFO Festival

- For more, all you Walton fans should check out Walton's List of Events page.

Here's Walton's Promo on DragonCon:

Travis Walton's book Fire in the Sky: The Walton Experience was the basis for the 1993 Paramount Studios film Fire in the Sky. He has been interviewed on numerous television programs including Larry King Live, Geraldo Rivera, Discovery Channel, History Channel, Monster Garage, Ancient Aliens, National Geographic, and the recent first ever 90 minute special episode of the Syfy Channel show Paranormal Witness. He has been featured in a wide range of print media including Penthouse and Playboy magazines and the official State of Arizona Centennial book Arizona: 100 Years Grand. He has been interviewed on countless radio programs including many times on COAST2COAST AM.

His book is in its third English language edition. There is a German edition, a Spanish language edition is coming, as is an audiobook version. Travis Walton has made appearances in Germany, Italy, Turkey, UK, Canada, Brazil and Australia. Several recording artists have releases based around his experience, including the deathmetal group, Hypocrisy's hit "Fire in the Sky" There is a stage adaptation of his story in development. He is a consultant on the development of the first-ever video game based on alien abduction, and in a separate project, a comic book version of his book. Interest in his experience is at an all time high and most of his appearances at colleges and conferences around the nation have record attendance. Travis Walton now looks forward to getting a remake of the Fire in the Sky movie that corresponds better to what really happened and to his current understanding of those events.
​

Video game consulting and a comic book version, plus the yearly pilgrimage to the SkyFire Summit! Sounds like Walton is taking the SkyFire franchise to a whole new level! I'm sure the fans will love it !

 

[boomerang]

The point about possible trace evidence on clothing is a perfectly good one. Since Walton returned mostly unharmed, and legally no kidnapping occurred, it seems doubtful investigation would rise to that level of sophistication. At any rate, as is so often the case with UFO encounters and possible trace evidence, windows of opportunity have long since closed.

 

[Jimi H.]

..
Phillip Klass, arch skeptic &"debunker", I would never quote. His leaps of logic, his pathological attacks ..

So, there are only those options in your head? Klass or Walton?

How about you dealt with this fact too, when describing the characters involved in the case:

".. in May of 1971, Walton had plead guilty to stealing payroll cheques and forging signatures in order to cash them. So the picture suddenly becomes one of an admitted fraud trying to gain UFO related media exposure who then just happens to go missing, only to resurface claiming to be a victim of alien abduction."

Your faith in the guy is touching though.

 

[mike_thoth]

I am not or ever will be "personally" invested in Travis Walton. As an outsider looking in I can say that opportunities were lost for follow up investigations. The tree ring data is compelling however given the many time dilation effects we hear about during close encounters.

I also don't consider myself biased towards his story, in a previous post I said that I drew no conclusions from his reports, only that to him & six other members of his crew, the event was 100% real & in their reality. They believe that what they saw is how it played out.

I think the case is valid given the witnesses. Back in 1975 & even now "debunkers" look for one hole in the case in order to try & bring it crashing down, as if one mis statement over a forty year period somehow invalidates his report. Back in 1975, if even one person failed those polygraphs (Dallas was inconclusive due to previous antagonism towards the police) then they would have been torn tO shreds. If it were a hoax it would have been the most poorly handled efforts in history.

Over 40 odd years his story never changed, he never embellished it & had to defend his name & reputation (including the crew) in the teeth of inquisition type attacks all on his own. Only recently have some others in the crew come forward to confirm Waltons statements. If this was a hoax, where were all the other crew members during the media storm, why didn't they write books & try & grab the limelight? I maybe wrong on these points of course, just my own thoughts. But if someone provided me with some of the statements I have made over the last 20 years I would cringe. Doing this to Walton given the time passed. My advice to those convinced of his potential motivations is this. Pick up the phone & call him to discuss these points, correspond by email to get the answers to questions some feel have a. Not been asked b. No tough questions on the Paracast & let us all in on his replies?? End it once & for all? If not then consider yourselves having something in common with Mr. Klass. Bitchy comment I know, no more though.

As I said before I am surprised at the tone of these threads. No one here has the complete answers to this phenomena yet vigorously defend their positions. I have studied this subject since I was 15 & I know less now then I did back then.

If Walton wants to arrange a conference for people local to him then good luck to him.

Michael

 

[Jimi H.]

I am not or ever will be "personally" invested in Travis Walton. ..

You wrote a long reply without even acknowledging the above facts, which I had asked for your opinion about.

So, it seems to me you don't want to think about his history, just like the other believers. Despite the fact that he previously admitted to financial fraud, and the fact that he lies when he says he wasn't into UFOs at all previous to the supposed event.

I'll be honest, I don't have all the answers either, but the 'I want to believe'-attitude I'm getting here is what pushes me to be extremely sceptical of any assessments I get from within the UFO community itself. Disregarding or withholding evidence when telling a story is as good as telling a lie.

Like the stories about how he just sits there and hardly does anything to milk the story. That's a lie, as Ufology has shown.

 

[marduk]

All this back and forth that will never end just makes me more firm in my assertion that we grey basket the whole kit & caboodle prior to 4-5 years ago.

We will NEVER come to any objective understanding of what is happening in general, or this case in particular, if we keep fussing the personalities involved rather than the facts.

This is a tremendous waste of effort and talent.

 

[mike_thoth]

I agree with Marduk 100%. This is why I tend not to post much.

 

[Double Nought Spy]

 

[Rizla]

I think Walton has done reasonably, if not spectacularly well with the story/film/book/etc. I enjoyed the episode, because a) Travis basically spun some Northern AZ fireside things about a lot of subjects, and b) I view all of this stuff as entertainment. All radio, AM/FM, Shortwave, Podcast, is at least 9/10ths entertainment, even during national emergencies. The stuff is financially based, and advertisements need to be paid to keep the thing afloat. Stan Friedman may be a bigger draw than David Attenborough on certain shortwave freq's, no getting around that.

You've gotta view the dilemma for any conference or radio show booking Travis Walton. The case has always been controversial. (Moseley has a short and useful summary in his book, from APRO to CUFOS to the film). No matter what the truth may be in a courtroom or Snowflake-area tavern, paranormal entertainment needs guests to fill 3 hour shows. There's a great article in the new Fortean Times about the look-the-0ther-way pattern typical of most mainstream ufologists; the Abduction scandals of recent years being the biggest travesty IMO, but the song remains the same. I would consider the account from the Snowflake resident as having at the very least the ring of truth. I really should go up there and find some of these witnesses and town residents and talk to them. If the above Snowflake story is correct, Clifton Walton (eldest son?) suffered through a lot, no one bothers talking to him.

Jimi H, you're right: Ufology has debased itself so thoroughly over the decades (read Vallee, Hynek, or even Coral Lorensen and compare it to the Roswell stuff! Hynek was at least a legitimate astronomer who worked for the Air Force, and could write reasoned, considered prose!), that everything should be taken with at reasonable scepticism. And there are questions that need to be asked, while still being polite and respectful. I mean, come on, outside of a core fan base, is the Walton Saga being taken seriously by a lot of people? Is anyone really, really still awaiting the Dream Team Roswell photos, holding their breath in anticipation? The outside world gives an enormous yawn. The Field as such has entered the twilight zone of entertainment and various stories, some more interesting than others. As Science, sadly, it's a mess. As entertainment, the Paracast is pretty good and can even be great when they break out of the mold, c.f. the under-rated Marc Dantonio show the other week. The shows that go paranormal, psychic/edelic, are so much more interesting, because the physical evidence of ETH craft is sadly nonexistent.

I do find Walton's case interesting though, and as ufologists always seem to note, he seems sincere (as if sincerity ever hurt a salesman, banker, politician, or con-man), and wonder if the whole thing wasn't an acid trip mixed with military lights and flights, a trip that spun way out of control. I don't know Walton and would respect his privacy enough not to talk about character. I think that even if he was holed up somewhere tripping his brains out (according to Clifton from Snowflake), the story and trip are certainly far more interesting than the Linda Napolitano fracas. Great thread!