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The Official Paracast Political Thread! — Part Two

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Gene Steinberg said:
Actually I do not disagree. Trump has been sort of a Rorschach test, and some/most of his plans are contradictory and vague. So it's possible he'll do things that are unexpected in a way that's actually positive for everyone.

So I don't subscribe to the conspiracy theories on how to throw the guy out before he takes office. But I will not abandon my opinions about what he did to get there and the lies he told.

One just hopes that this has all been a tremendous wakeup call and that he will wake up.
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Somebody asked for some pros on this thread.

And I've been holding back on mine. Because secretly, I kinda wanted him to win. Although very much mostly not. But kinda.

Here's why.

I think your proud nation is all kinds of messed up and broken. Your cities are so very different than your urban areas. Your west coast is so very different than the east coast. And your heartland... well, I don't know what the hell it is because it seems not to be able to put anything cogent together.

Your education system is broken. Full stop. You still argue about creationism in the classroom and whether to teach evolution. You teach a very American-centric view of the world, when in reality you are actually a small part of the world. Your post-secondary education system is top notch, except a very small part of your population can actually get in and pay for it.

Your healthcare system is broken. Obamacare is sure a step up, but a watered down version of what it should be. The math doesn't work, and will never work. You pay far more than you should for health care, and get far less out of it. Insurance companies dominate your life in the land of the free.

Your military system is broken. You have whole cities in states of decay, you have massive economic breakdowns... and yet you still fund your military as much as the next eight countries combined. You cannot afford it, and quite frankly, the world no longer wants (or trusts you) to be it's police. You do not hold the moral high ground in any way, shape, or form.

Your election system is broken. You desperately need to curtail the power of lobbyists and abolish the electoral college. Corporate power and funding has way too much control on your leadership engine.

Your culture is broken. The melting pot has failed. Systematic, en-cultured, reinforced racism and sexism is obviously still rampant in your nation. All the dark crazies the urban folks thought you had under control obviously isn't. You are now a culture dominated by hate. Of itself, of the other, of everything. You are addicted to the illusion that reality TV is reality.

Maybe when Trump is finally thrown out of office (and at some point, he will be), maybe then you will look at the systematic nightmare problems your country is facing. Maybe, that is a pro. That by allowing to be led by a monster, the darkness in your id, maybe you will learn to address it.
 
marduk said:
Somebody asked for some pros on this thread.

And I've been holding back on mine. Because secretly, I kinda wanted him to win. Although very much mostly not. But kinda.

Here's why.

I think your proud nation is all kinds of messed up and broken. Your cities are so very different than your urban areas. Your west coast is so very different than the east coast. And your heartland... well, I don't know what the hell it is because it seems not to be able to put anything cogent together.

Your education system is broken. Full stop. You still argue about creationism in the classroom and whether to teach evolution. You teach a very American-centric view of the world, when in reality you are actually a small part of the world. Your post-secondary education system is top notch, except a very small part of your population can actually get in and pay for it.

Your healthcare system is broken. Obamacare is sure a step up, but a watered down version of what it should be. The math doesn't work, and will never work. You pay far more than you should for health care, and get far less out of it. Insurance companies dominate your life in the land of the free.

Your military system is broken. You have whole cities in states of decay, you have massive economic breakdowns... and yet you still fund your military as much as the next eight countries combined. You cannot afford it, and quite frankly, the world no longer wants (or trusts you) to be it's police. You do not hold the moral high ground in any way, shape, or form.

Your election system is broken. You desperately need to curtail the power of lobbyists and abolish the electoral college. Corporate power and funding has way too much control on your leadership engine.

Your culture is broken. The melting pot has failed. Systematic, en-cultured, reinforced racism and sexism is obviously still rampant in your nation. All the dark crazies the urban folks thought you had under control obviously isn't. You are now a culture dominated by hate. Of itself, of the other, of everything. You are addicted to the illusion that reality TV is reality.

Maybe when Trump is finally thrown out of office (and at some point, he will be), maybe then you will look at the systematic nightmare problems your country is facing. Maybe, that is a pro. That by allowing to be led by a monster, the darkness in your id, maybe you will learn to address it.
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You're still out of gas back there in the desert. Allow the facts to do the real talking and the opinion to do the walking. Fail.

Canada vs United States: Economy Facts and Stats
 
The thing is Jeff @marduk has a point. Despite our economic strength and markets this money isn't making it's way to where it should be and that was one of Donald's main talking points wasn't it, socially we shouldn't be where we are.
 
Jeff Davis said:
Speak for your own gray matter, oh that's right, you are. BTW, might want to get a handle on the following concept: Association fallacy - Wikipedia Kinda trashes pretty much everything you've ever contended politically. :oops:
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Although the Association Fallacy is logically coherent, it is being used as an excuse to deny the obvious. The fact is that most scientific findings are based on association between observation and effect. When something is observed to have the same effect over and over again, then it is considered to be reliably accurate. The effect of CO2 as a greenhouse gas is considered to be scientifically accurate. The production of CO2 by humans is considered to be reasonably accurate. Therefore the CO2 and other greenhouse gasses produced by humans must be having some effect.

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How much effect human contributions of greenhouse gasses have is a point of contention. Some say that it makes no appreciable difference. Others say that a negligible difference over time is cumulative and can add-up to serious problems. Given the nature of the carbon cycle I tend to think that there may be some validity to that, especially when we're also destroying the Earth's ability to absorb and reprocess carbon.

But the Association Fallacy argument that really gets my goat is the one that hydrofracers use to deny hydrofracturing causes contaminated ground water. They say there's no "scientific proof", which is in and of itself an unscientific statement because science is about evidence rather than proof.
 
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If "Did Not Vote" Had Been A Candidate In The 2016 US Presidential Election, It Would Have Won By a Landslide

as Nov 8th approached i found myself coming closer and closer to voting for this candidate myself.

i got tired of people from either side egging me on telling me how important it was to vote for Donald or Hillary. One morning i was outside eating my breakfast along with my squirrel friends Lucy, Fred and Al and another dining companion Harry (the neighbor's cat and for the record a female) in the common space of the apartment i live at when a person passing by come up to me (uninvited) interrupting my breakfast and started going on about how important it was to vote for Donald Trump etc.etc. etc. and almost fetishised him. "Oh God, i thought one of those people" i gave her a couple of minutes then told her that i wasn't beholden to either one. She took this gracefully but wouldn't let up until i told her i had to get ready for work.

I sent my vote by mail application in fairly late and didn't get my ballot till the weekend before and as it turned out didn't have my name on it. The name was something like Arlene Marcella Garrata , how on God's Green Earth the county registar managed that i'll never know, but it was too late to start the whole process again and i figured "Well, i am registered at this address, there's no Arlene here so i'll probbaly be ok by just crossing out her name and writing in my own."

On Monday i was about to mail it off when i forgot that i could just drop it at the voting station a couple of blocks away so i did Tuesday morning. I got there at 8:30 and i could see that the workers there were already frazzled and stressed. i asked the last guy at the table if it was ok if i left it with him, without really even looking at me he said "sure" took it from me and tossed it into a somewhat non descript box with other dropped off mail ballots.

The "punchline" here was that i did vote for President Obama eight years ago and if at that time i had gotten a ballot with somebody's else's name i would have double checked, triple checked, quadruple checked with this supervisor or that supervisor to make sure i wouldn't have invalidated my ballot by doing so. If eight years ago some precient poll worker had non chalantly grabbed my mail in ballot and tossed it in w/all the drop offs i would have questioned him on that. "are you sure this is going to be collected, it looks like something that could be missed" etc. This time i found that i didn't really care despite the amount of time i took trying to decipher the pros/cons of various ballot propositions as it seems to me that the only intent (most of the time) of these ballots is to seperate more money from our wallets in the form of taxes, the real winners of these things are the lawyers that write them and will later find loopholes to get past something because it wasn't written properly the first time, and whatever these issues are supposed to be covered why weren't they handled and/or addressed correctly the first time ? In the end it was almost like going through the motions I suppose. I sort of needed to tell myself I did my part but I did pass on the sticker as I couldn't find much pride in that. I just hope that for the good of the country Trump will do very well and fly through uncontested four years from now, but just in case I'll be preparing to gird my loins sometime after the fall of 2018.
 
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My Father once told me "If you don't vote, you can't complain when you are let down".

I have voted every time that I have been old enough to, but I know the exact same feeling you are talking about.

It is extremely hard not to be disenchanted about the political system, I am hoping that things will change for the better.
 
Creepy Green Light said:
It's all a tangled, abstract fallacy.
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Well, one thing I would agree on is that the solution involving carbon credits and the like is more about moving wealth around and creating political loopholes for emitters than it is about reducing the actual amount of global emissions. I'd also agree that the human impact on climate change would need to be much greater in order to have an appreciable and timely effect. Something besides reducing emissions is required; something on the level of space based solar shields that are thousands of miles wide. They can be built, but instead the money for them is going into greed-based shell games for carbon credit speculators.
 
ufology said:
Although the Association Fallacy is logically coherent
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Loosely referred to as guilt, or, honor through association, I cannot totality agree with the concept in all forms. For as if this were true, I would be found guilty of supporting Trump through my current pigmentation and gender, although never having voted for the dubious rascal.
 
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The comments to the YouTube video are interesting.

RWW News: Glenn Beck Says "We Are Racist" If We Accept Steve Bannon In The WH
TEXT: "Published on Nov 15, 2016: Right Wing Watch reports on the extreme rhetoric and activities of key right-wing figures and organizations by showing their views in their own words. In this video, Glenn Beck says that if the American people accept Donald Trump putting Steve Bannon in the White House, 'then we are racist.' "

Glenn Beck Says That If Americans Accept Steve Bannon In The White House, ‘Then We Are Racist’
November 15, 2016
LINK: Glenn Beck Says That If Americans Accept Steve Bannon In The White House, ‘Then We Are Racist’ | Right Wing Watch
TEXT: "On his television program last night, Glenn Beck sat down with some of his staff members to discuss the election results and Donald Trump’s transition into the White House. During the conversation, Beck once again issued a warning about Steve Bannon, the former head of the right-wing website Breitbart who has been tapped to serve as President Trump’s chief strategist and senior adviser, saying that if Americans accept Bannon’s elevation into the White House, 'then we are racist.'

" 'If you know Steve Bannon’s agenda and his vision of America, it’s not pretty,' Beck said, falsely claiming that nobody in the media has been paying attention to the racist alt-right that Bannon has championed and insisting that is why the American people are not more alarmed by Bannon’s rise.

"Beck said that Breitbart, under Bannon, was an arm of Trump’s presidential campaign from the very beginning and will now essentially become 'state-run TV' that pushes the alt-right ideology on the nation.

" 'Nobody is looking into it. Nobody really cares,' Beck said. 'When people really understand what the alt-right is, this neo-nationalist, neo-Nazi, white supremacy idea that Bannon is pushing hard; I hope they wake up because, if not, we are racist. If that’s what we accept and we know it, then we are racist. I contend people don’t know what the alt-right is yet.' ”​
 
I agree with this sentiment - I was actually thinking the same on my commute home: "It’s still a disorienting situation, when you thought you lived in a certain kind of country with certain values that were held in esteem and find out those values aren’t very important to half the country."

I don't recognize my country anymore, albeit I am also aware that it's true in many ways that the country has never been quite the country I thought it was, growing up and into my adulthood, what with de-facto segregation, lynchings, manufactured wars, CIA foreign interventions, etc. Plus the fact that I am a member of a privileged 'class', who has always lived in what amounts to protected enclaves, and as such can never fully appreciate the experience many of my fellow citizens deal with as a matter of course in their lives, with police, poverty level jobs, limited opportunities. Still - it feels like the idealim and values spoken aloud across most of the decades of my life have become ashes in the mouth - in a way that is new.

On NPR today there was a discussion about the NRA gun lobby pressing for gun rights (in accord with Trump's views) that cross state lines, concealed-carry being permitted everywhere - breaching states' right. Something like 68% of state governors are Republican. Something like that. The country has never been the 'shining city on the hill'. A student whose mother voted Trump stated that he was scared if Hillary won because - if she had won (he believed) men would show up at the door with guns. :(

Gregg Popovich’s Second Condemnation Of Trump Is Just As Powerful As His First - “It’s still a disorienting situation.”
LINK: Gregg Popovich's Second Condemnation Of Trump Is Just As Powerful As His First | The Huffington Post
TEXT: "San Antonio Spurs coach Gregg Popovich drew national attention over the weekend after he took a reporter’s question about his thoughts on the election and delivered a passionate condemnation of President-elect Donald Trump.

"On Tuesday, when asked about it again, his answer was less fiery, but just as eloquent. Popovich said that he had hoped Trump would come out with a message to try and assuage the fears of the minority groups he pointed to as the sources of America’s problems during his election campaign. Trump has done little to nothing in that regard, however, as Popovich noted.

“ 'It’s still a disorienting situation, when you thought you lived in a certain kind of country with certain values that were held in esteem and find out those values aren’t very important to half the country,' Popovich said.

"Rather than break up the quotes, we’re just going to let Popovich speak in his own words. Below is a transcript, via the Washington Post’s Tim Bontemps: [see LINK for transcript]"​
 
WATCH: Keith Olbermann Introduces 'The Resistance,' Says Ignore Anyone Insisting America Give Trump a Chance
LINK:WATCH: Keith Olbermann Introduces 'The Resistance,' Says Ignore Anyone Insisting America Give Trump a Chance
TEXT:
“We Do Not Have Time for the White House Edition of ‘Celebrity Apprentice’ Starring President-Elect P*ssy-Grabber”
In the months leading up to the election Keith Olbermann, in a series of web videos, tried to convince America just how dangerous a president Donald Trump would be. Now that America is facing President-elect Trump, the former MSNBC host is back with a new series devoted to fighting against the man Olbermann calls a fascist, and evil.

In his new series, "The Resistance," Olbermann aims to unite those who oppose Donald Trump's presidency. He rightly reminds us that Trump was duly elected and trying to fight that battle, perhaps at the Electoral College, is pointless.

But there are things Americans can do now, Olbermann insists, as he launches into one of his iconic rants.

“Since no Democratic or liberal politician has yet stepped forward out of the morass of Politics, Inc. to take on the responsibility of The Resistance, I, with complete awareness of the presumptuousness and arrogance of this statement, volunteer myself, and I will gladly turn over all these burdens to any more legitimate and informed lawmaker or political or cultural leader who has the guts to take these burdens,” he offers.

“The first step is to complete the de-legitimizing of his presidency and his election. De-legitimizing that he himself began.”

“Sixty-eight days until his inauguration, still bitching about his paranoid fantasies about the media, still lying about what he said during the campaign, still referring to himself in the third person, still obsessing over one newspaper – as if he were fifteen and it had refused to go with him to the junior prom,” Olbermann says.

“Give him a chance? What, in the hope that he will someday grow up enough to be able to see over the top of the Oval Office desk?”

He mocks those who insist America must give Trump a chance.

“'All we are saying is, give fascism a chance,'” Olbermann mimics. “'Who knows, it might not be as bad as we think. It might not be a bottomless pit.'”

Olbermann steadfastly refuses – hence the name, "The Resistance."

“We do not have time for the White House edition of ‘Celebrity Apprentice’ starring President-elect P*ssy-grabber,” Olbermann, exasperated, declares.

And he warns that while he's advocating resistance, he wants people to do so legally.

“I do not want violence, I’m not proposing the overthrow of the government by any means other than legal and political,” Olbermann said. “I think protests should be limited to Washington, Trump Tower and the Trump hotels. I have no pie-in-the-sky plan to have the Electoral College alter the outcome somehow, I will even acquiesce to a President Pence — just get this man out of here.”

Olbermann is always at his best when he's angry, and he, and all of America, right now have every right and reason to be angry.

Watch: [Video in LINK]​
 
Some history - regarding when America was Great. :(

Angela Davis - at 1:40 she answers the key question -
 
Gene Steinberg said:
A huge issue in this campaign was the fake news epidemic. This explains why certain people here come up with sheer nonsense that many of us have to constantly correct.
CNN's Jake Tapper Explores The Epidemic Of Fake News Being Spread On Facebook And Google
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What about those who voted for Trump who use the same defense, that the media has been unkind to him? Do you know of any objective stats on which one has been reported on more accurately? Durung the election there were fact checkers for them both, but I'm wondering if there's something more in-depth and independent?
 
Angela Davis on Not Endorsing Any Presidential Candidate: "I Think We Need a New Party"
TEXT : "Published on Mar 28, 2016: In a Women’s History Month special, we speak with author, activist and scholar Angela Davis. For more than four decades, Davis has been one of most influential activists and intellectuals in the United States. An icon of the 1970s black liberation movement, Davis’ work around issues of gender, race, class and prisons has influenced critical thought and social movements across several generations. She is a leading advocate for prison abolition, a position informed by her own experience as a fugitive on the FBI’s top 10 most wanted list more than 40 years ago. Davis talks about the 'fascist appeal' of Donald Trump and explains why she is not officially endorsing any candidate in this election. 'I believe in independent politics," she says. "I still think that we need a new party, a party that is grounded in labor, a party that can speak to all of the issues around racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, what is happening in the world. We don’t yet have that party.' "
 
ufology said:
What about those who voted for Trump who use the same defense, that the media has been unkind to him? Do you know of any objective stats on which one has been reported on more accurately? Durung the election there were fact checkers for them both, but I'm wondering if there's something more in-depth and independent?
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He got two billion dollars worth of free publicity. Many of his outlandish statements were never debunked. Only on the later stages did reasonable fact checking occur. It was then too late.
 
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