The most convincing case of an Identified Alien Craft (IAC) is?

[Burnt State]

This is the crux of it and where the real schism in the UFO community lies and could possibly be an analogy or an onion skin to a more complex understanding of human behaviour and experience. We can discredit the new age bollocks for now and lets concentrate on the good ol' paradigm of yesteryear that is ETH materialism. They have been clinging to this ideal for so long now and creating this Stanton Friedman house of cards so much so that their position becomes untenable to the contrary and is not really interested in the truth but only serves to interpret their reality and how they define themselves as human beings . The selective case work and partial reading of documented UFO encounters which more often enough is parochial at best only goes to support this stance and this is what the status quo of ufology has been built on and why it has gone no where in 60 years.

The only thing positive I can get from this is a working case study in the way we as humans create organic belief systems and seek truth from the unknown. This kind of ufological belief system is ultimately self serving and serves as a form of social constructivism very much based on the ruling Abrahamavic belief system of western culture . Like most ufo cult religions and religions in general (ironically the ETH cultists can not see the wood through the trees for this matter) in order for this system to take hold it needs a mystical or unexplainable event(s), a relic or evidence helps to concrete this and although it doesn't go to prove anything, offers a chance to engrain a theory into doctrine pulling an idea or a mixed bag of peoples perceptions from the ether of their experience and memory into the material world. It could also be a photo or a film or a document from God like Moses coming back from the mountains with the Majestic 12 documents, some baco- foil and a good probing, or the word of god as told by the church of Episcopal Latter Day Serpo. Once an assumption has been made (due in part to a lack of imagination and an unwillingness to entertain other just as plausible belief structures or religions) a conclusion is drawn based on this monotheistic imperative trying to attach meaning to this theorising, pedestrian at best like the evidence itself its drawn usually from sci fi pulp fiction through the lens or filter of the current paradigm. The main theory becomes ingrained to the centre of the argument ingrained i.e.. aliens, this becomes part of the spiritual doctrine and like all of these things is immaterial. But we have this need as humans to bring the immaterial into existence , the need to procreate. We get frustrated when people don't follow our belief systems and like good scientists we demand proof, because it just doesn't make sense still. Then the papacy to our cult brings forward the Turin Shroud. It comes in and out of favour, it offers real tangible evidence but it could be a fake. I think at the moment its real but could change again? But people have their own real mystical experiences and seemingly nonsensical contradictory observations. The church doesn't like this and so spiritual doctrine decrees and interprets these view and re-amalgamates back into the church or kicks them into some cathar stronghold to let them get on with their cousin marrying snake waving camelot project weirdness.

But the god fearing status quo, backed by the church pulls out experts on ufology based on countless christians coming closer to god and these christians are priests, saints and bishops who know god better than anyone because they have doctorates to prove it and who were there when christ died and they recovered his body parts too ;"But he's not the son of god right, you know all the weirdness, the miracles and floating in the air all that stuff, that didn't happen he was just some ordinary dude ?" Yes he is god and the priests can prove it plus there are countless written texts on the matter, witness testimony, turin shroud, a bit of the cross etc . Its just not good enough is it and the disclosure project know this and their banging on the Church door because they're the authority right? "tell us the real truth about Ezekiel's wheel but not elves or fairies we don't believe in that shit anymore but we do believe in the the weird angels that impregnate us at night and the holy spirit that touches us, we know you've got some better wood cuts, more of the true cross and some weird angel type ark of the covenant type shit and more secret scripture".

I guess if you want hand outs from god then you go to the people who created him in the first place. They don't know much about the fairies or elves as they dismissed all that stuff out of hand when they built churches on pagan sites, piggybacking the belief systems of the past to carry on controlling the masses. Its enough to carry on the shill game of belief and church indcotrination and while people are cow towing to the Pope or fighting each other over how to kneel before god, venetian bankers, the papacy and landed gentry can carry on fleecing.

Then we hit the invisible forcefield parameters of our small minded belief system, we hit it and bounce back on our self, the modern malaise of meta post modernism , the catch 22 of human existence that maybe weirdness and the paranormal is trying to break us free from ,that being the importance and belief we place on the material to prove what is at best immaterial;

And when the powers that be say, "actually we don't really know what the fuck is going on" it still won't be good enough - "your lying to us-your hiding something, its a conspiracy, were still waiting for that one photo, hold on, photos can be manipulated right? even if you are telling the truth it could still be a lie right? its a double bluff, a triple bluff, i mean that one film, video ; ok 3d holographic film, filmed at a stadium with lots of people in front of the worlds news cameras preferably in front of the whitehouse and some people i know are real like some celebrities , what we need is a real alien dead or alive like a bigfoot corpse that we can cut up so we know its not from earth because it doesn't fit into our evolutionary structure , yeah we need a live autopsy or possibly a live event like when the sky opens up and the giant mothership appears and reigns down light open us and the heaven opens up and we witness THEE FINAL TRUTH , THEE UNKNOWABLE BECOMES KNOWN. PRAISE BE ROSWELL. AND THE RADAR BLIP OF SWIFTNESS YET INDISCERNIBLE CREATION FROM THE PLANET SUPPOSITION THAT TURNS INTO AN ALIEN SAYING "WE ARE THE ONE TRUE ALIEN IN OUR VERY GOOD MECHANICAL FLYING BOAT FROM WHERE WE CALL APLHA CENTAUR AND YOU CALL BY COINCIDENCE ALPHA CENTAUR TOO YES WE USE WORDS TOO TO COMMUNICATE PRAISE BE THE HOLY CRUCIFIXATION OF THE ROSWELL AUTOPSY AND VARIOUS UNDISCLOSED BUT NOT SO SECRET CRASH RETRIEVALS WE HAVE CHOSEN YOU AMERICA BECAUSE YOU DIDNT BELIEVE THE AFRICAN SCHOOL CHILDREN. "

But this clinging to the the idea that the powers that be or the government are going to provide the answer is the problem off basically everything in our society at the moment and completely understandable and in some ways true.

More than an excellent post peeled from between the layers of human experience, this is an exceptional summation of our relationship to the mystery, to all mysteries that we collect around and use to define the myth of reality as we have invented it. This post stands out as a very astute summation of the history of ufology. It contains all our frailties, desires and insistences about knowing what can not ever be known. Religions and cults follow.

Time and time again i learn this: one should never underestimate Nameless. That's a self-reflexive koan in case you didn't notice.

While some may disagree because we hold on to hope or desire or belief there's really nothing much left to do but pay your tab and pick up your coat and galoshes on the way out the door.

 

[manxman]

he's a nutter.

 

[nameless]

takes one to know one

 

[manxman]

 

[Constance]

You must be new to this ufo business. In a word: assumptions.

We've all got some. Out of curiosity, what are the assumptions of the disclosure movement that have in your view reduced it to a vast 'disservice' to all of us?

I can imagine that you might have been in the camp that opposed Greer's attempt to tie the value of disclosure to open criticism of our disastrous energy economy on the basis of the possibility that we might learn cleaner and more abundant energy technologies from ET. It would have been a reasonable argument to make in an open and better-informed society not already owned by the corporations. Greer made other errors as well. On the other hand we have COMETA's disclosure document challenging the US to join in the disclosure efforts of the French and others. What fatal assumptions did you find in their 90-page document?

 

[Constance]

continuing to Burnt State

...Now when you look at Vallee's intro to the first text in the trilogy he acknowledges that when he came on the scene in America there was no indexing whatsoever of the 10,000 plus cases. Does that sound like a concerted effort to control a situation?

I think it was in the mid-60s when Vallee joined Hynek in the US. It's clear enough from Keyhoe's and Ruppelt's books and other early insider accounts that the Air Force had known for more than a decade at that point that it had no hope of 'controlling the situation' regarding ufo waves and military encounters, and had long since decided that all it could control was the flow of information.

In his conclusion Dolan focuses on two contentions: that they aliens are here and that they are a threat. I think those are also big assumptions. For there is no proof of either to date - yes a powerful phenomenon is at work, but a threat? Where do we see this? And aliens? That's one common suspicion. You have to believe in abductions and a hybridization program to go there, or make assumptions that many missing pilots were swallowed up by UFO's and this also has no real stable ground.

Yes those are big assumptions, not certainties, but there are reasons why they were reached by military and scientific insiders in this country and others. Those who wrote the COMETA Report subtitled their presentation: "What Must We Prepare For?" in case the ETI hypothesis {what they called "the best available hypothesis"} turns out to be valid. From a practical point of view, it makes manifest sense that some preparations should be made (to prepare ordinary people with some information and also reassurance that the PTB have a rational plan or two for how to interact with ETs if one or more groups of them land representatives here). I'm open to proposals why the above position of COMETA is not rational. For the rest of your paragraph, I don't see why I have to personally "believe in abductions and a hybridization program to go there, or make assumptions that many missing pilots were swallowed up by UFO's and this also has no real stable ground." Abductions and the hybridization theory have not been subjects I've pursued, nor are they necessary to the recognition of the physical reality of some UFOs. Re missing pilots and crashed planes (military and civilian ones), I saw a recent investigative report on the numbers of crashes during a period (I think in the 50s) during a major ufo wave, information compiled from various archival sources, and the numbers were significant. Citizens of the time would not be reading reports of these in the major newspapers. One can choose to blow off the 65-year official secrecy imposed about ufo interactions in this country only if one does not read the research concerning it.

But I do agree with you, Constance, people should read books and make their own decisions. IMHO we should not confuse a public relations exercise about an unknown phenomenon with a cover-up. The only thing I see being covered up is the sense of control and power that power needs to maintain for its own sense of ego and spending budgets. But do they know what's going on? Are they engaged in battle with off world forces? I don't see any evidence of that, nor do I see the threat proved.

Nor do I necessarily see a 'threat' from ufos given the long history we have with them even in modern times, and especially not when we read the reports going back into antiquity. I certainly don't buy the rumours that we're "engaged in battle with off world forces." But it's putting one's head in the sand to deny that the waves of ufos beginning in the 40s alarmed the militaries of the world and left governmental leaders with an enormous problem concerning what to tell the people and when. And I think it's ludicrous to refer to the 65-year-old coverup of the phenomenon in our time as "a public relations exercise."

Dolan uses the same alarmist drama in his interpretation of UFO history and military might that he critiques Keyhoe for in the same book. Again, it all sounds quite plausible but it heads into the same direction of confirming Roswell as an alien crash with recovered bodies. We don't know this. And what do we know of the concerns of the state today? They turn around and say, let the billionaire collect the files, as they are simply not processing it as there is no real threat that we know of. Again, it's all just speculation, some informed and some bits are guesses. I like the ideas Hastings has strung together in his own speculations, but that's all they are. I can't stop myself from being critical. It's what I learned here on this forum, even though i would like to believe in magic.

We all have to deal with all this ambiguity in our own way.

Btw, I'm still wondering where (what year in the archives) I can find that Paracast interview with Clark, and about what you or Clark meant by the following:

As to who has knowledge: I don't think anyone knows squat about the phenomenon. What the US military may have is a lot of really interesting data, maybe even some images, that they have kept to themselves. But have they taken time to create an overt response to the phenomenon? Clark says, "I don't see any evidence of that at all."

What overt response would you have had them make? The Air Force decided early on to stop firing missiles at UFOs since they had no effect on the UFOs and instead prompted aggressive responses (increasingly mild ones, such as disabling weapons systems, communications, and aeronautical controls temporarily).

 

[Constance]

Nameless, I admire the vigor and passion of your response to the circus of misinformation, space opera, disinformation, and "meta post modernism" that has surrounded the ufo subject. I too wish it were different.

 

[Burnt State]

he's a nutter.

What, are you calling us back to the bar for another round?

It he's a nutter then what are we to make of the cruise ship off the coast of Turkey masquerading as a UFO with a large enough tourist transparent wall photo area that you can actually see aliens looking back at us videotaping them while they take pics of earthlings for the little Greys back home?

Even better what do people really know about The Flatwoods Monster - meteor shower and an owl in a tree? I mean sure, Mothman's definitely an owl but the Flatwoods Monster? I don't think so. Has anyone read Feschino's book? What's the deal as after 20 years of research and interviews with the witnesses I actually got convinced of the notion of a crashed ship, with ET phoning for an intergalactic cab ride and spent some time in the back pear orchard, floating around in his hover ship and scaring the locals while waiting for his ride to show up. The pics Jeff posted below are a correction on the original robot in a bad dress. If you just want to forget the cold ufological Nihilism of Nameless then just sit back and listen to Feschino on BOA audio and enjoy the roller coaster ride. It starts slow but delivers a great speedy corkscrew of a ride by the time it's over!

Frank Feschino on BoA:Audio - Binnall of America

This is a truly fascinating follow up to the Flatwoods Monster case.

Did you see this? If not, I certainly don't think you're in for a disapointment. UFO Magazine - UFO Magazine Blog - Feschino Reveals New Illustration of the 1952 "Strange Creek Monster"

 

[manxman]

ya will have a hard sell to me about ships traversing harshness deep space, only to crash on our pleasant little orb when they get here, the yanks may well have shot at em, but downed craft is a stretch, downed drone isnt so so whacky tho.

 

[Burnt State]

Constance, I'm so tempted to just repost Nameless' ufo manifesto and leave it at that as I think he's covered most of the territory regarding how we have invented so much about the phenomenon and why we may feel the gov't has answers to disclose, or has been engaging in an ongoing cover up of national security proportions. I mean on one hand isn't the military always engaging in a secret set of national security issues, and haven't they relished in being able to use the UFO phenomenon as a wonderful smoke screen to carry on as they always have - furtively?

Yes those are big assumptions, not certainties, but there are reasons why they were reached by military and scientific insiders in this country and others. Those who wrote the COMETA Report subtitled their presentation: "What Must We Prepare For?" in case the ETI hypothesis {what they called "the best available hypothesis"} turns out to be valid. From a practical point of view, it makes manifest sense that some preparations should be made (to prepare ordinary people with some information and also reassurance that the PTB have a rational plan or two for how to interact with ETs if one or more groups of them land representatives here). I'm open to proposals why the above position of COMETA is not rational.

When you're throwing your hands up in the air over an assumption as big as the ETH I suppose you are then compelled to put your best foot forward or at least say that you are doing exactly that. That sounds like the rational thing to do if that's what you believe is going on. I think in a recent Paracast Forum vote the UFO was identified as an unknown and not alien craft. We know the reasons for this collective thinking as there's nothing concrete to be said otherwise, and why would the military have any real extra inside information that's functional enough for them to make policy with?

For the rest of your paragraph, I don't see why I have to personally "believe in abductions and a hybridization program to go there, or make assumptions that many missing pilots were swallowed up by UFO's.

To continue, I wasn't suggesting you personally, but if UFO Majic policices were being drafted then we should have good threatening reasons and I can't see any reason for the military complex to engage in a defensive or aggressive posture without said threats. Lights in the sky you can't catch up to doesn't cut it.

I saw a recent investigative report on the numbers of crashes during a period (I think in the 50s) during a major ufo wave, information compiled from various archival sources, and the numbers were significant. Citizens of the time would not be reading reports of these in the major newspapers. One can choose to blow off the 65-year official secrecy imposed about ufo interactions in this country only if one does not read the research concerning it.

That assumption, that the reason why pilots were crashing are connected to a UFO flap that may or may not only exist in the minds of a populace just introduced into the phenomenon, may be nothing more than an assumption.

But it's putting one's head in the sand to deny that the waves of ufos beginning in the 40s alarmed the militaries of the world and left governmental leaders with an enormous problem concerning what to tell the people and when. And I think it's ludicrous to refer to the 65-year-old coverup of the phenomenon in our time as "a public relations exercise."

That first sentence is possibly alarmist and perhaps creative fiction more than an accurate portrayal of an international response to a very intangible problem with nothing but best guesses to work with - see ETH above.

I have to ask just what exactly is the motive for why Phil Klass and the skeptical debunkers do what they do in such a hardcore manner? Are they engaged also in the secret cover-up? I see no difference between the approaches the military/gov't has taken in its debunking approach or in its motive. It simply can not accept it as real. It sees no proof. It is disgusted and disturbed by imaginary notions about the intangible and irrational (their words not mine) and they react vociferously to such claims by stamping them out and maintaining control. That's the public relations exercise I see - don't worry, be happy, buy more plastic, we have everything under control. STOP THINKING IRRATIONALLY SOLDIER AND YOU CHARGE THAT WALL!

We all have to deal with all this ambiguity in our own way.

Of course I have at various points in my life worshipped at the cult of ETH. Please forgive me Father Vallee, for I know not what I do. And now I think Clark's wrong about the ETH, but appreciate all the good writing, theorizing and indexing of the events. I still like ambiguous puzzles and remain open to the influence of the old testament and especially the gnostic gospels of ufology.

Btw, I'm still wondering where (what year in the archives) I can find that Paracast interview with Clark

I'm pretty sure it's from his first appearance and was one of those episdodes responsible for dragging me more thoroughly into the quest all over again:

December 7, 2008 — Jerome Clark | The Paracast — The Gold Standard of Paranormal Radio

 

[Burnt State]

ya will have a hard sell to me about ships traversing harshness deep space, only to crash on our pleasant little orb when they get here, the yanks may well have shot at em, but downed craft is a stretch, downed drone isnt so so whacky tho.

Apparently in this case mistakes happen. I think that this old gnostic UFO text, on face value, is as intriguing as the Kelly Hopkinsville affair. It is a downright well rounded story with just too many suspicious features to let it be debunked by an owl and some meteors. We're talking alien creature in a robotic hover craft suit to help it navigate the terrain. Makes perfect sense. I say if the UFO occupants ain't floating in our atmosphere then it's some guy in a rubber suit or a hallucination.

Why is it always an owl anyway...

 

[trainedobserver]

We've all got some. Out of curiosity, what are the assumptions of the disclosure movement that have in your view reduced it to a vast 'disservice' to all of us?

The disclosure drum beaters want the government to tell everything they know about extra-terrestrials.

Assumption 1: There are extra-terrestrials visiting the earth.
Assumption 2: The government knows something about them.
Assumption 3: They would tell us the truth, if they even knew it.

 

[manxman]

number 1 is a certainty, so certain bookmakers wouldnt lay you odds on a long term bet say life being discovered in the next 25yrs..

 

[trainedobserver]

Turkey UFO Incident - YouTube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_P8j7NBpYg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W25x-YQB-Jc

I am reasonably convinced that the "Turkey UFO" is a cruise ship photographed on the horizon.

The next image is the most convincing.

See this website for more diagrams and explanation.

Can we believe the "story" around these images at the expense of what our "lying eyes" see in the above analysis?

 

[trainedobserver]

number 1 is a certainty, so certain bookmakers wouldnt lay you odds on a long term bet say life being discovered in the next 25yrs..

Good enough. I've amended it to read ... visiting the earth. A large distinction.

 

[boomerang]

Boomerang,
Its on Amazon Kindle Books

I'm late to the party as usual. I have Nook but not Kindle. Seems like it wasn't available on Nook, but I need to check again.

 

[boomerang]

I don't think secret factions ( military or otherwise ) within the existing societal framework count as "breakaway civilizations". A civilization is a massive cultural and geographical artifact that is independent from other civilizations. The military and corporations are not. They are intimately connected to their associated countries which are in-turn all part of our modern global civilization. It may be possible that there are alien bases on Earth that could count as outposts, but there is no credible evidence or reasonable theory that could explain UFOs as the product of a human civilization that has broken away from the rest of civilization here on Earth.

I agree. Which is why I believe the kind of seamless and watertight way in which people and incidents are handled makes it likely that, with or without the complicity of human agencies, the ultimate architects of UFO secrecy are non-human. The degree of control exercised over witnesses and events, both during and after encounters, seems far in excess of that demonstrated by more traditional and fallible methods.

On the other side of the argument, we can honestly say that based on technological revelations given over to the public sector in the last 50 years, the defense establishment has made huge strides in the art of covering its own technological tracks. Still, it would seem to require only one partly botched incident to crack the whole piggy bank of UFO secrecy wide open. And we have not seen that.

 

[Angel of Ioren]

This is a great thread! So much to read through.