The 1980 Cash-Landrum sighting and investigation

[Randall]

I don't think so, in part because the rockets that got it off the ground only functioned briefly. Then there were the little men--seen in association with a rocket propelled UFO on at least one other occasion.

What seemed to be a brief functioning of the engines can be explained by the close proximity of Zamora to the craft when it blasted off. The roar of jets or rockets on takeoff is so loud that it is literally deafening at close range. Unless we're launching something into space, after liftoff the engines throttle back a bit and the exhaust becomes transparent. Then as the craft moves away, the sound diminishes rapidly. In other words, the engines didn't actually go out, rather the thrust became transparent, and the sound lowered to below the threshold of Zamora's temporarily impaired hearing. Then the object moved off. The humanoids may have just been small humans. We have little people that ride horses, and there have been height and weight restrictions on military pilots, so small humans cannot be ruled out. All this fits with the description provided by Zamora.

They could have hidden bases in our solar system and testing the effects of radiation on us.

Alien bases cannot be ruled out. Timothy Good is an advocate of that idea. However given that level of sophistication, the C/L incident seems like a disproportionately primitive way to gather data.

They kept no records? You'd think if the engineers or others behind it were aware of the ruckus it caused, by now one or more would've come forward. There should be some documentation in that case, or a clear identification after 33 years.

The Estimate of the Situation by Project Sign was relegated to the incinerator. This is perhaps one of the most culturally and scientifically significant documents of the 20th Century, yet thousands of other relatively unimportant records escaped that fate. The Northrop flying wing was also ordered destroyed along with all the parts and plans. We are lucky to have found out about it by way of surviving test footage and photographs. Who knows what else has suffered the same fate in complete obscurity, especially if it were a foreign project? So what should be and what is actually the case are often two entirely separate concepts. The bottom line is that both accounts can be explained in terms of the technology of the time. No need to invoke aliens.

 

[Sentry]

I did catch on the Paracast that the one woman was acting coy about where they had been... Did they get themselves into some kind of trouble; had they done something or had they been somewhere they shouldn't have been? It's well documented that people sometimes create wild stories to hide certain truths sometimes...

I'm still hoping Chris Lambright will drop by, he really should be answering. Chris has sent me a partial transcript of his interview with Vickie. What you are referencing is her clamming up after mentioning "Morgan City". She was reluctant to share much of the details of the case, since she felt an obligation to John Schuessler.

(Since the show, I've refreshed my memory on Morgan City:

"There was a Quick React Force operating in Louisiana and Texas during the last year and a half. The last they heard of it was about 6 months earlier, operating near Morgan City, Louisiana. He said they practiced "Iran type" raids, operating from a small carrier in the Gulf of Mexico. Other times they haul in 5,000-gallon fuel bladders for refueling. Their operation is secret and not announced."
-MUFON Journal Oct. 1982
http://web.archive.org/web/20130421022547/http://www.theblackvault.com/encyclopedia/documents/MUFON/Journals/1982/October_1982.pdf

At the time, she thought it was a hot lead, but like a lot of others the trail went cold.

Regarding your mention of "wild stories", notorious UFO debunker thought the story may have been a hoax to cover for the embarrassment of Betty losing her hair. Sorry, Phil, not one of your greatest hits!

 

[Trajanus]

The humanoids may have just been small humans. We have little people that ride horses, and there have been height and weight restrictions on military pilots, so small humans cannot be ruled out.

On one other occasion, entities resembling beer cans with stick legs were seen in association with a rocket propelled UFO.

Alien bases cannot be ruled out. Timothy Good is an advocate of that idea. However given that level of sophistication, the C/L incident seems like a disproportionately primitive way to gather data.

I doubt they wanted data, just to hurt someone.

The Estimate of the Situation by Project Sign was relegated to the incinerator. This is perhaps one of the most culturally and scientifically significant documents of the 20th Century, yet thousands of other relatively unimportant records escaped that fate.

But that's entirely different. The estimate had the conclusion the government did NOT want publicly known--that UFOs are of ET origin. Less important documents, like some outdated technology, don't have to be destroyed.

 

[Randall]

On one other occasion, entities resembling beer cans with stick legs were seen in association with a rocket propelled UFO.

Perhaps that was some kind of hoax. Is the evidence for that one as good as the C/L incident?

I doubt they wanted data, just to hurt someone.

You mean like some kind of alien Predator scenario? I don't think that is believable outside of sci-fi.

The estimate had the conclusion the government did NOT want publicly known--that UFOs are of ET origin. Less important documents, like some outdated technology, don't have to be destroyed.

Like I said, they did it for the Northrop flying wing. Also, much of the Apollo mission stuff was found lying around in decaying cardboard boxes. That's how the moon conspiracy guys got started.

 

[FilmguyLee]

Agreed 100% with you Ufology - the idea of ANY E.T. involvement in this case is stretching it as it is, but to even suggest that this incident was aliens prowling about to inflict injury on random people is absurd to say the least.

Couldn't believe that when I read it!

 

[Randall]

Agreed 100% with you Ufology - the idea of ANY E.T. involvement in this case is stretching it as it is, but to even suggest that this incident was aliens prowling about to inflict injury on random people is absurd to say the least.
Couldn't believe that when I read it!

@Trajanus is just making idle conversation more than being 100% serious ( or so I would guess ), and of course I can't resist participating .

 

[Trajanus]

Perhaps that was some kind of hoax. Is the evidence for that one as good as the C/L incident?

It's a much older case yet part of a fairly recent compilation, so the witness apparently never confessed to a hoax, and it didn't get much publicity. Btw IIRC Edwards mentioned a South African case involving a rocket UFO.

You mean like some kind of alien Predator scenario? I don't think that is believable outside of sci-fi.

They could've wanted to test the effects of radiation, or did it as a kind of warning to us. There have been a number of cases, besides reported abductions, where someone was assaulted, even mutilated by UFOs or aliens.

Like I said, they did it for the Northrop flying wing. Also, much of the Apollo mission stuff was found lying around in decaying cardboard boxes. That's how the moon conspiracy guys got started.

One reason I don't believe C/L or Socorro involved government craft is that both caused quite a ruckus, which the humans supposedly involved would've known about but nobody ever verified they were gov't craft for many years. You'd think by now somebody would've following declassification and given the government's desire to debunk ET as a cause of sightings.

 

[Sentry]

I've always wondered about this case and the fact that it happened within days of the Rendlesham Forest/Bentwaters incident. Both Cash-Landrum and Bentwaters appeared to have military involvement. A coincidence? Has anyone ever looked for a connection between the two?

Flatwoods, I'd forgotten about this quote from:
Left at East Gate: A First-hand Account of the Rendlesham Forest UFO Incident by Larry Warren and Peter Robbins, 1997

Late spring (1984) found me at another MUFON conference in Beverly, Massachusetts, but the infighting among researchers was more prevalent in the research, and I spent most of the weekend depressed. I did get to meet John Schuessler, a NASA employee from Houston. He remarked on the coincidental timing of Bentwaters with the 29 December 1980 Cash–Landrum incident near Huffman , Texas. Some folks were wondering if the UFO we'd seen in England was the same object they'd seen in Texas. I doubted it.

 

[Randall]

... One reason I don't believe C/L or Socorro involved government craft is that both caused quite a ruckus, which the humans supposedly involved would've known about but nobody ever verified they were gov't craft for many years. You'd think by now somebody would've following declassification and given the government's desire to debunk ET as a cause of sightings.

I suppose we could go on with endless possibilities, but the bottom line still remains the same. There's insufficient reason to conclude that either the C/L or the Socorro incidents involved alien craft because they seemed to involve technology available to us at the time. Whether or not that specific technology was ever disclosed isn't relevant. If we could have made them then it stands to reason that we probably did.This doesn't mean I'm drawing a certain conclusion. Perhaps they were alien, but I personally remain unconvinced.

 

[Sentry]

As promised, I've finally posted the first draft of the
Resource Guide for the Cash-Landrum UFO Case.
It's got a lot of work yet to be done on it, but the foundation has now been set.

 

[Trajanus]

I suppose we could go on with endless possibilities, but the bottom line still remains the same. There's insufficient reason to conclude that either the C/L or the Socorro incidents involved alien craft because they seemed to involve technology available to us at the time. Whether or not that specific technology was ever disclosed isn't relevant. If we could have made them then it stands to reason that we probably did.This doesn't mean I'm drawing a certain conclusion. Perhaps they were alien, but I personally remain unconvinced.

On many occasions, aliens have been reported with technology just like our own--ladders, drill, eyeglasses, a typewriter even buckets and shovel. Besides that rocket-like UFO with the strange entities, there's a 1965 case from South Africa, mentioned by Edwards. Two policeman came across a disc shaped UFO, about thirty feet in diameter, with a slightly illuminated dome, resting on a road. The UFO soon rose on jets of flame which emanated from two tubes on the underside. It severely burned the asphalt road. So even a "standard" UFO design can use rockets. Maybe the thing had to land a a smooth surface, due to loss of its usual propulsion, and had to use a backup system to get away. I don't think it's wise to assume an unidentified, strange craft utilizing conventional technology is one of ours, especially without documentation after many years.

 

[Burnt State]

On many occasions, aliens have been reported with technology just like our own--ladders, drill, eyeglasses, a typewriter even buckets and shovel. Besides that rocket-like UFO with the strange entities, there's a 1965 case from South Africa, mentioned by Edwards. Two policeman came across a disc shaped UFO, about thirty feet in diameter, with a slightly illuminated dome, resting on a road. The UFO soon rose on jets of flame which emanated from two tubes on the underside. It severely burned the asphalt road. So even a "standard" UFO design can use rockets. Maybe the thing had to land a a smooth surface, due to loss of its usual propulsion, and had to use a backup system to get away. I don't think it's wise to assume an unidentified, strange craft utilizing conventional technology is one of ours, especially without documentation after many years.

Those are all excellent examples of how the UFO event is conflated by human perception during moments of high excitement. In the middle of the surreal visit the humanoid asks for simple things like, "Hey, can I have some fresh water in this container?" What keeps this modern mystery endlessly fascinating is how it almost appears at the edge of our mental fingertips - something we can almost hold onto but makes no sense, like Simonton's pancakes. In this way it is very difficult to rule out what is terrestrial vs. extra-terrestrial, or when these visitors come from.

However, in following Sentry's exceptional work (book coming soon I hope) on this thread and at Blue Blurry Lines, there is enough detail here to convince me of a terrestrial based, contemporary piece of technology having troubles, and being escorted by a helicopter brigade in case of a bigger disaster to follow. The deniability from gov't & military fits a pattern of covert activity and experimentation where civilian casualties are acceptable but inadmissable.

I was very taken by the personal statements, the intensity of the heat and the terrifying physical outcomes. This was an incredible ordeal these people went through and one that had lasting health implications that no one is willing to answer to. If you scratch the Valentich disappearance/death (IMHO the abduction scenario is not a physical event) I'm not aware of any other instances where the UFO encounter has been so dire in terms of personal health and danger. All other examples see people healed quickly or they survived their close brush with an erratic object. That's another reason why this case stands out for me and seems to have humans experimenting with tech at the heart of the story.

 

[Randall]

... I don't think it's wise to assume an unidentified, strange craft utilizing conventional technology is one of ours, especially without documentation after many years.

That's a fair point but it's also not the issue. The issue is that if it's unwise to assume an unidentified, strange craft utilizing conventional technology is one of ours, it's even more unwise to assume that it's something alien. Therefore the better cases are those that are unambiguous about the nature of the object to begin with. That's all I'm saying.

 

[Trajanus]

Those are all excellent examples of how the UFO event is conflated by human perception during moments of high excitement. In the middle of the surreal visit the humanoid asks for simple things like, "Hey, can I have some fresh water in this container?" What keeps this modern mystery endlessly fascinating is how it almost appears at the edge of our mental fingertips - something we can almost hold onto but makes no sense, like Simonton's pancakes. In this way it is very difficult to rule out what is terrestrial vs. extra-terrestrial, or when these visitors come from.

Where these visitors come from. I think some ETs want to confuse or deceive us, and that can account for "high strangeness." If some strange entity is associated with a highly unconventional flying machine, ET should be assumed, unless it's a hoax.

I was very taken by the personal statements, the intensity of the heat and the terrifying physical outcomes. This was an incredible ordeal these people went through and one that had lasting health implications that no one is willing to answer to. If you scratch the Valentich disappearance/death (IMHO the abduction scenario is not a physical event) I'm not aware of any other instances where the UFO encounter has been so dire in terms of personal health and danger. All other examples see people healed quickly or they survived their close brush with an erratic object. That's another reason why this case stands out for me and seems to have humans experimenting with tech at the heart of the story.

In fact there have been many instances in which UFOs or entities caused serious harm. Moncla, Michalak, a few human mutilations, a man in the UK paralyzed in the late '70s, IIRC a fatal airline disaster etc. An ET explanation for C/L certainly shouldn't be doubted on the basis of harm done.

 

[Randall]

If some strange entity is associated with a highly unconventional flying machine, ET should be assumed, unless it's a hoax.

Um ... no ... bad idea. Unless there is sufficient information to reasonably conclude that the object and the entity are both alien, then the only thing that should be assumed is that more information is needed in order to explain the incident. And even if there is enough evidence to reasonably conclude alien, that still doesn't necessitate ET. Apart from that you make some good points ( as usual ) .

 

[Burnt State]

Where these visitors come from. I think some ETs want to confuse or deceive us, and that can account for "high strangeness." If some strange entity is associated with a highly unconventional flying machine, ET should be assumed, unless it's a hoax.

In fact there have been many instances in which UFOs or entities caused serious harm. Moncla, Michalak, a few human mutilations, a man in the UK paralyzed in the late '70s, IIRC a fatal airline disaster etc. An ET explanation for C/L certainly shouldn't be doubted on the basis of harm done.

I prefer 'when' over 'where' as it suits my own cosmology better.

On the UFO injury front I think there is a critical point I'm making and I stand by the original statement. I feel strongly this is a real line of pursuit in thinking about "to what extent do UFO's interact with us." I think i'll make this a separate thread as it is a very unique feature.

As for many injuries - i don't see evidence of this at all. Pilots who chase lights in the sky and die from
disorientation or breathing issues is their fault. Michalak survived no problem - that's one of my big favourites in the world of sightings. Mutilations? I hope that's not coming from Butch Witkowski. I could find no evidence of permanent UFO caused paralysis - please cite.

 

[Trajanus]

Pilots who chase lights...

Neither Mantell nor Moncla were chasing lights.

I could find no evidence of permanent UFO caused paralysis - please cite.

In 1947 a geologist noticed aliens while climbing a mountain. They hit him with a beam, knocking him down the mountain and leaving him partly paralyzed.

 

[Burnt State]

Neither Mantell nor Moncla were chasing lights.

Ok, Mantell said it was a very bright white object, with possibly some red on the bottom and nothing else is confirmed in his description. The other was not even seen, just radar blips being chased by a pilot known to have vertigo issues. Neither case appears to have any aggressive ET craft causing harm, but pilots who ran into trouble.

In 1947 a geologist noticed aliens while climbing a mountain. They hit him with a beam, knocking him down the mountain and leaving him partly paralyzed.

In the other thread Sentry posted this link Shuessler - UFO-Related Human Physiological Effects (1996) that has a number of "injuries" with lots of examples of temporary paralysis, most often associated with lone incident reports such as abductions. None have any real credible examples of ET acting in a malicious manner to cause real lasting, verifiable harm.

See this thread for more on this topic:

Do UFO's cause human injury? | The Paracast Community Forums

 

[Trajanus]

Ok, Mantell said it was a very bright white object, with possibly some red on the bottom and nothing else is confirmed in his description.

Metallic and of large size.

The other was not even seen, just radar blips being chased by a pilot known to have vertigo issues. Neither case appears to have any aggressive ET craft causing harm, but pilots who ran into trouble.

Moncla seems to have been taken, Mantell quite possibly brought up to a dangerous altitude.

In the other thread Sentry posted this link Shuessler - UFO-Related Human Physiological Effects (1996) that has a number of "injuries" with lots of examples of temporary paralysis, most often associated with lone incident reports such as abductions. None have any real credible examples of ET acting in a malicious manner to cause real lasting, verifiable harm.

The '47 incident I cited isn't there....

 

[Burnt State]

Metallic and of large size.

that's the unconfirmed bit right there - totally hearsay, no one has his confirmed statement on that one. That's one of those added descriptions after the facts scenarios that seem to percolate throughout the UFO literature like an Aztec crash site.

Moncla seems to have been taken, Mantell quite possibly brought up to a dangerous altitude.

i don't know if you can jump to that conclusion, just as with Valentich. in all these cases wreckage has ultimately been found that is believed to be linked or confirmed, but either way, i don't see ET as being responsible for their actions.