shapeshifters

[flipper]

Jesus could cloud men's minds like The Shadow, and like the Silver Age Superman, the character of Jesus could do whatever was required of him by the plot and circumstances.

I also think it is a bit like the situation presented in the movie Galaxy Quest where one society misinterprets another society's fiction as history and manufactures elaborate rationalizations that allow them to fill in the blanks and rectify inconsistencies inherit in a fictional work constructed by multiple authors.

I really do think it all breaks down to this. Sacred texts describing super-beings and creator gods are essentially another societies (separated by time and or culture) speculative and allegorical fiction being misapplied as divine revelation.

Throughout history various figures (the latest and probably most notable being L. Ron Hubbard) have realized that people's beliefs surrounding their greatest fears and insecurities can be manipulated easily enough if you tickle their ears and play toward their narcissism. Sometimes they just make it up, but most often they beg, borrow, and steal from what has come before as in the case with both Christianity and Scientology.

I think it is pretty much an impossibility that anything that is presented as being about the life and character of the figure referred to as Jesus/Yeshua could be referencing actual events in a real person's life. It has been my experience that serious attempts to gain some sort of understanding of the Biblical tales and their original intended meaning is to invite the dissolution rather than evolution of one's Christian faith

Jesus could cloud men's minds like The Shadow, and like the Silver Age Superman, the character of Jesus could do whatever was required of him by the plot and circumstances.
This is like our modern day aliens.

I also think it is a bit like the situation presented in the movie Galaxy Quest where one society misinterprets another society's fiction as history and manufactures elaborate rationalizations that allow them to fill in the blanks and rectify inconsistencies inherit in a fictional work constructed by multiple authors.
Scholars have seriously looked at the various scriptures and tried to figure out exactly what happened in history, taking out the paranormal or supernatural. To deny their work puts you in league with fundamentalists.

I really do think it all breaks down to this. Sacred texts describing super-beings and creator gods are essentially another societies (separated by time and or culture) speculative and allegorical fiction being misapplied as divine revelation.
Is there a divine and does the divine reveal? Scientist look at SACRED TEXTS and believe that there is a truth to be found in them. There are legion of interpretations:

Throughout history various figures (the latest and probably most notable being L. Ron Hubbard) have realized that people's beliefs surrounding their greatest fears and insecurities can be manipulated easily enough if you tickle their ears and play toward their narcissism. Sometimes they just make it up, but most often they beg, borrow, and steal from what has come before as in the case with both Christianity and Scientology.
This statement that all Christians were manipulated by fear and insecurity reflect the current belief that nothing good has ever come from Christians or Christianity. Could it be that at some time something was done right by them?

It has been my experience that serious attempts to gain some sort of understanding of the Biblical tales and their original intended meaning is to invite the dissolution rather than evolution of one's Christian faith.
I do not understand this statement but I would agree that we are de evolving rather that getting smarter, stronger, and more spiritual.

 

[manxman]

to TO in reply to nothing ever proven.


i read/watched about a dowser, he dowsed for oil companies, lived 1000s off miles away from where 2 men had gone missing, one winter, they just vanished, when the dowser heard about it, he dowsed a map of the area, a big geological one, phoned the sheriff and told him where the guys were, heard nothing for weeks, so rang again, sheriff hadnt taken any notice off him, as the cordinates were in the middle of a big lake, but this time figured he had nothing to lose, steamed out to the co-ordinates, threw over the grappling hook, and hooked the guys pickup first throw.

 

[flipper]

Chris O'Brien once saw a skinwalker (shapeshifter).

 

[Burnt State]

That is to say that when you understand the origins the Bible, you begin to understand that it isn't what it is presented as being, and therefore rather than your faith being strengthened or grown, it tends to evaporate. Or so is my personal experience and observation of others.

And that returns us to the role of the editor and the promoter - also known as the interpreter of religious dogma. Most of the fun bits of ancient religious texts were excluded in order to promote things like the primacy of patriarchy, heterosexuality and guilt due to sin. I suppose those features certainly do take all the joy out of any spiritual significance.

Whether it's the Koran, the Torah, the Bible etc. they all have their apologists whose primary focus has been to consolidate power through their strict interpretations. In the west I find it interesting how that in the early eras of religious instruction only priests could read the bible, and then forty years later I was forced to simply memorize all the books of the bible, and now kids get o have at it. If they choose to study the many garbled messages at work I think that TO's observations are borne out, as the potential for a spiritual interpretation and development is either confused or derailed by the contrary nature of the text. Sure there are some nice ideas throughout, but mostly eroded by all the damnation, guilt, fear, wrath and that whole bit about it all being the woman's fault.

That's where I do feel the Gnostic texts did have a different spin on the whole deal for this is the false world and we must endeavor to do better & learn more.

 

[manxman]

you actually read the bible then BS.

i dont mean the sarkie, i mean i didnt ever get made to read the bible, i do vaguely remember religious studies, cannot remember any lessons tho, i guess i must have read bits and peices in those lesson's, nothing stuck.

 

[Burnt State]

I have read much of it, Manx, and at the end of the day I would summarize as I have above - a lot of conflicting information.

 

[trainedobserver]

Chris O'Brien once saw a skinwalker (shapeshifter).

Huh?

 

[trainedobserver]

I think it gets back to the question of whether these are stories told by men for all the reasons men tell such tales (to inspire, to cower, to unite, or to divide) and they aren't communications from advanced non-human beings with the keys to the universe in them. That's all I'm saying.

 

[smcder]

you actually read the bible then BS.

i dont mean the sarkie, i mean i didnt ever get made to read the bible, i do vaguely remember religious studies, cannot remember any lessons tho, i guess i must have read bits and peices in those lesson's, nothing stuck.

Give this a go Manxman if you have some time:

Jordan Peterson on Reality and the Sacred | Big Ideas

 

[smcder]

You're basing your evaluation on what we observe with literate societies after stories have been written down. Prior to literacy the memory is prodigious - and consistent. Story cycles like Homer's Illiad and the Odyssey, and the Finlandish epic of the Kalevala, all were memorized (in/with rhyme and beat) and are just two examples.

I am not referencing personal tales and the human tendency to exploit the gullible, even be it a 'tall tale' about the size of one's fish catch or the bear one fought bare-handed. The people entrusted to the people's myths usually occupied a very special place in the community - spent years in apprenticeship to a 'master-singer' or story-teller before they were worthy to recite the tales on their own. Accuracy was key - though I'm not saying variations did not creep in over the generations - yet the goal would not have been personal elaboration in the modern sense.

Again - and this is an old point of contention between us - the ancients (and not-so-ancients) were speaking out of personal experience of the subtler realms. What they spoke could be verified by any one of their numbers in their experience. Now, in a time when the subtler realms have been closed off and must be accessed in different ways, their reality becomes an object of speculation, fanciful elaboration and outright disbelief. The considerable 'trickster' aspects of the intellect have become the base-line for assessment. The side aspects of the function of the intellect - among many such side effects as you mention - are doubt, disbelief and delusion, and misinterpretation, as you say.

I'd like to learn more about oral tradition . . . one way I know a bit about oral tradition is discussion of Buddhist Sutras, where repetition and form is used to conserve accuracy and as a teaching technique. It think oral tradition can be accurate. But there should be quite a bit of research on this in anthropology among traditional oral cultures - shouldn't there?

 

[manxman]

dont we all get involved in oral tradition, getting married, having your kids christened, local traditions/fayres/carnivals/ even government ceremonies, same with courts swearing in's, its apart of everyday life for alot of people.

 

[Han]

There is a particularly good BBC special about that somewhere.

Here is a recent BBC show about the "Bible hunters" (people who searched for the earliest versions of the bible) What I found most interesting is that the "resurrection" seems to have been a latter addition to the text of the Bible:*

part 1

part 2

*I am not knowledgeable about the Bible to tell you if it is a fair documentary, but I personally did enjoy it.

 

[nameless]

@trainedobserver What's the time limit on personal accounts? Do they loose mean anything after a certain amount of time, 1 year, 10 years, 50 years, 100 years?

As a side note, some religious texts, apart from say their bicameral interpretation and or metaphorical meaning also had built in "blinds" plus some have symbols written on the page to add further meaning which are often missed out in translation as they are seen as margin graffiti.

 

[Burnt State]

Huh?

There was one episode where @Christopher O'Brien talked about seeing the shadow of a tall thin shapeshifting creature across a window or a wall? It's a little vague now, but definitely a different story than the one with the non-human entities carrying the sparkly rods. I thought i remember him saying it had antlers or head tentacles or somehing but i could be making that up. Maybe he'll give us some clarity on that. Anyway, in my mind, as he was describing this shadowy creature I kept seeing the forest spirit from Princess Mononoke and imagined his shapeshifter to look like this:

 

[trainedobserver]

@trainedobserver What's the time limit on personal accounts? Do they loose mean anything after a certain amount of time, 1 year, 10 years, 50 years, 100 years?

As a side note, some religious texts, apart from say their bicameral interpretation and or metaphorical meaning also had built in "blinds" plus some have symbols written on the page to add further meaning which are often missed out in translation as they are seen as margin graffiti.

Isn't it on the label?

Well, is it a personal account, a fictional story presented as a personal account, a poetic allegorical presentation of cultural ideals, or a concoction of providence? The older the thing is the harder it is to tell.

I mean, where are the modern age's signs and wonders? Why have they repeatedly been shown to be trickery and charlatanism when they do appear?

 

[trainedobserver]

Give this a go Manxman if you have some time:

Jordan Peterson on Reality and the Sacred | Big Ideas

I think everyone should have some sort of comparative religion studies. Reading or studying the Bible as just pure literature can be rewarding. Certainly, if you have any religious leanings at all, you should make an effort to explore the origins and histories of various religious schools of thought from an objective viewpoint. Religious art, prose, and poetry can be appreciated for what they are, great efforts of human passion and devotion of historical significance, sans the supernaturalism. We should certainly celebrate truth, beauty, perseverance in the face of adversity, and gratitude, amongst other virtues. Preserving those ideals through an institutionalized focus seems pretty effective. Taking the mumbo jumbo seriously that is draped around those concepts by religions, theists, or spiritualists can a slippery slope though.

 

[manxman]

you mean in a Confucius says kind of way with the original text, rather than someone elses interpretation of the original text's, thru the ages.

 

[flipper]

@trainedobserver What's the time limit on personal accounts? Do they loose mean anything after a certain amount of time, 1 year, 10 years, 50 years, 100 years?

As a side note, some religious texts, apart from say their bicameral interpretation and or metaphorical meaning also had built in "blinds" plus some have symbols written on the page to add further meaning which are often missed out in translation as they are seen as margin graffiti.

Do they loose mean anything after a certain amount of time, 1 year, 10 years, 50 years, 100 years? I would like to know your opinion?
I think they find new meaning as life changes.
As a side note, some religious texts, apart from say their bicameral interpretation and or metaphorical meaning also had built in "blinds" plus some have symbols written on the page to add further meaning which are often missed out in translation as they are seen as margin graffiti.
Interesting!

 

[flipper]

There was one episode where @Christopher O'Brien talked about seeing the shadow of a tall thin shapeshifting creature across a window or a wall? It's a little vague now, but definitely a different story than the one with the non-human entities carrying the sparkly rods. I thought i remember him saying it had antlers or head tentacles or somehing but i could be making that up. Maybe he'll give us some clarity on that. Anyway, in my mind, as he was describing this shadowy creature I kept seeing the forest spirit from Princess Mononoke and imagined his shapeshifter to look like this:

Thanks it saves me looking for it.

 

[Tyger]

I'd like to learn more about oral tradition . . . one way I know a bit about oral tradition is discussion of Buddhist Sutras, where repetition and form is used to conserve accuracy and as a teaching technique. It think oral tradition can be accurate. But there should be quite a bit of research on this in anthropology among traditional oral cultures - shouldn't there?

In ancient Egypt the Priests - or the Scribe Priest - would map out the hieroglyphs to be chiseled in stone. The artists - the ones who applied the colors would then come along - who could not 'read' the glyphs necessarily, but followed the outlines and colored them in with the appropriate color. What was the penalty for altering the 'sacred text' - by scribe or artist? Death.