shapeshifters

[flipper]

“Then the Jews said to Judas: How shall we arrest him [Jesus], for he does not have a single shape but his appearance changes. Sometimes he is ruddy, sometimes he is white, sometimes he is red, sometimes he is wheat colored, sometimes he is pallid like ascetics, sometimes he is a youth, sometimes an old man…”
Translation of 1,200-year-old Egyptian manuscript proposes Jesus could change his appearance and shape at will | Altered Dimensions ParanormalAltered Dimensions Paranormal

 

[Randall]

“Then the Jews said to Judas: How shall we arrest him [Jesus], for he does not have a single shape but his appearance changes. Sometimes he is ruddy, sometimes he is white, sometimes he is red, sometimes he is wheat colored, sometimes he is pallid like ascetics, sometimes he is a youth, sometimes an old man…”
Translation of 1,200-year-old Egyptian manuscript proposes Jesus could change his appearance and shape at will | Altered Dimensions ParanormalAltered Dimensions Paranormal

Interesting. To me this doesn't suggest that the biblical character we know as Jesus was actually an individual, but that he was ( is ) a personification of ideas designed to spread religious concepts associated with his tribe. This strategy made him untraceable to any particular individual and gave him the supernatural abilities you mention, along with immortality, and explains why it is only by faith that you can come to know him. It's all quite clever really, more so IMO than had Jesus been an actual being. In the end, if anyone actually was nailed to the cross as described in the mythology, it was probably some scapegoat.

 

[manxman]

aye who could really walk on water with holes in their feet, i mean c'mon.

 

[flipper]

aye who could really walk on water with holes in their feet, i mean c'mon.

I do it all the time. It is called ice!

 

[Burnt State]

Jesus would have been so much more interesting an historical figure if those patriarch editors back in the day kept all the gnostic gospels where J.C. becomes a little more wild, radical & hermaphroditic - can you imagine a church based on open sexuality? What a different world it would be.

And isn't it in the Koran where J.C as baby starts talking in an adult voice to confirm his mom, the Theoticus, is truly pure and virginal? Quite the historical figure that Jesus dude was - too bad we only get half the story of what he was on about - damn those patriarchs, editing out all the good bits.

 

[Tyger]

Definitely a more complicated story than appears in the St James Version. From the Dead Sea Scrolls the most interesting - and the one very much in keeping with occult lore - has been the Gospel of Judas (I haven't made a reading of all that are available). Plus there is another of Mary Magdalene from another cache.

Eventually the Christians were absorbed into the Roman Empire - via Constantine - or more accurately, his mother Helena. There lies the origins of 'Churchianity' - when the dying Rome, and it's structure, was given new life. There lies the downfall and the arch-nemesis of the message of the teacher named Jesus. Had not Constantine and Helena taken hold it would have been very different. The structure of the Roman Family - the Father as Patriarch with the power of life and death over his wife and children - this ancient model idiosyncratic to the ancient Romans, born in the rape of the Sabine women - this model was brought forward contrary to the teachings of the Rabbi Jesus.

 

[Tyger]

“Then the Jews said to Judas: How shall we arrest him [Jesus], for he does not have a single shape but his appearance changes. Sometimes he is ruddy, sometimes he is white, sometimes he is red, sometimes he is wheat colored, sometimes he is pallid like ascetics, sometimes he is a youth, sometimes an old man…”
Translation of 1,200-year-old Egyptian manuscript proposes Jesus could change his appearance and shape at will | Altered Dimensions ParanormalAltered Dimensions Paranormal

@flipper - (ahem) *cough* I think we got the message in your signature.

Well, if Jesus was able to do the 'Ascension' Initiation (Western term) he would have to have had the Yogic capacity to manifest his body at will. However, this capacity - spoken of in eastern esoteric lore - would have had to be held in abeyance as it was essential that 'the god' experience death in order to enter the Underworld. (Orpheus Descending).

BTW, flipper, do you know about the Kolbrin Bible? I just came across it - when I was watching one of your YouTube links, in fact. I've gotten as far as The Culdian Trust. Is this little bit from the Kolbrin Bible?

 

[smcder]

Jesus would have been so much more interesting an historical figure if those patriarch editors back in the day kept all the gnostic gospels where J.C. becomes a little more wild, radical & hermaphroditic - can you imagine a church based on open sexuality? What a different world it would be.

And isn't it in the Koran where J.C as baby starts talking in an adult voice to confirm his mom, the Theoticus, is truly pure and virginal? Quite the historical figure that Jesus dude was - too bad we only get half the story of what he was on about - damn those patriarchs, editing out all the good bits.

Try Godbody by Theodore Sturgeon

 

[Polterwurst]

“T(...) Sometimes he is ruddy, sometimes he is white, sometimes he is red, sometimes he is wheat colored, sometimes he is pallid like ascetics, sometimes he is a youth, sometimes an old man…”

Interesting. The Sherlock Holmes or Inspector Clouseau of his time. And why not, undercover subversive work needs a disguise artist. At last I know how he got out of the temple without the angry crowd of clerks and brokers stoning him.

 

[flipper]

Try Godbody by Theodore Sturgeon

Every time I open my mouth I change feet.

 

[flipper]

Eventually the Christians were absorbed into the Roman Empire - via Constantine - or more accurately, his mother Helena. There lies the origins of 'Churchianity' - when the dying Rome, and it's structure, was given new life. There lies the downfall and the arch-nemesis of the message of the teacher named Jesus. Had not Constantine and Helena taken hold it would have been very different. The structure of the Roman Family - the Father as Patriarch with the power of life and death over his wife and children - this ancient model idiosyncratic to the ancient Romans, born in the rape of the Sabine women - this model was brought forward contrary to the teachings of the Rabbi Jesus.

I have not studied other text other that what is now called the Bible. I did take an "Old Testament" coarse with Professor Lane from Oxford University while he was teaching at U of Toronto that focused on higher criticism. It was an experience like when your swimming under water and you come up for air. Also there were courses on the "new testament" which treated it the same way.
My on conclusion is that the message that is there, is about community, justice (everyone getting a fair break) and speaking truth to power. The prophets were not inspired to tell the future, but instead were inspired to tell the ruling elite that Yahweh was not pleased with their injustice. Jeremiah is my favorite who says that he wishes he could keep his mouth shut but the words are like burning coals in his mouth.

We are the new Rome. Our talk is who we should beat up and why. This is the opposite message of Rabbi Jesus. Here is book that helps put things back in perspective:
Amazon.com: Speaking Christian: Why Christian Words Have Lost Their Meaning and Power-And How They Can Be Restored eBook: Marcus J. Borg: Kindle Store

 

[smcder]

I have not studied other text other that what is now called the Bible. I did take an "Old Testament" coarse with Professor Lane from Oxford University while he was teaching at U of Toronto that focused on higher criticism. It was an experience like when your swimming under water and you come up for air. Also there were courses on the "new testament" which treated it the same way.
My on conclusion is that the message that is there, is about community, justice (everyone getting a fair break) and speaking truth to power. The prophets were not inspired to tell the future, but instead were inspired to tell the ruling elite that Yahweh was not pleased with their injustice. Jeremiah is my favorite who says that he wishes he could keep his mouth shut but the words are like burning coals in his mouth.

We are the new Rome. Our talk is who we should beat up and why. This is the opposite message of Rabbi Jesus. Here is book that helps put things back in perspective:
Amazon.com: Speaking Christian: Why Christian Words Have Lost Their Meaning and Power-And How They Can Be Restored eBook: Marcus J. Borg: Kindle Store

See also Walter Brueggemann "The Prophetic Imagination"

 

[trainedobserver]

Jesus could cloud men's minds like The Shadow, and like the Silver Age Superman, the character of Jesus could do whatever was required of him by the plot and circumstances.

I also think it is a bit like the situation presented in the movie Galaxy Quest where one society misinterprets another society's fiction as history and manufactures elaborate rationalizations that allow them to fill in the blanks and rectify inconsistencies inherit in a fictional work constructed by multiple authors.

I really do think it all breaks down to this. Sacred texts describing super-beings and creator gods are essentially another societies (separated by time and or culture) speculative and allegorical fiction being misapplied as divine revelation.

Throughout history various figures (the latest and probably most notable being L. Ron Hubbard) have realized that people's beliefs surrounding their greatest fears and insecurities can be manipulated easily enough if you tickle their ears and play toward their narcissism. Sometimes they just make it up, but most often they beg, borrow, and steal from what has come before as in the case with both Christianity and Scientology.

I think it is pretty much an impossibility that anything that is presented as being about the life and character of the figure referred to as Jesus/Yeshua could be referencing actual events in a real person's life. It has been my experience that serious attempts to gain some sort of understanding of the Biblical tales and their original intended meaning is to invite the dissolution rather than evolution of one's Christian faith

 

[smcder]

Jesus could cloud men's minds like The Shadow, and like the Silver Age Superman, the character of Jesus could do whatever was required of him by the plot and circumstances.

I also think it is a bit like the situation presented in the movie Galaxy Quest where one society misinterprets another society's fiction as history and manufactures elaborate rationalizations that allow them to fill in the blanks and rectify inconsistencies inherit in a fictional work constructed by multiple authors.

I really do think it all breaks down to this. Sacred texts describing super-beings and creator gods are essentially another societies (separated by time and or culture) speculative and allegorical fiction being misapplied as divine revelation.

Throughout history various figures (the latest and probably most notable being L. Ron Hubbard) have realized that people's beliefs surrounding their greatest fears and insecurities can be manipulated easily enough if you tickle their ears and play toward their narcissism. Sometimes they just make it up, but most often they beg, borrow, and steal from what has come before as in the case with both Christianity and Scientology.

I think it is pretty much an impossibility that anything that is presented as being about the life and character of the figure referred to as Jesus/Yeshua could be referencing actual events in a real person's life. It has been my experience that serious attempts to gain some sort of understanding of the Biblical tales and their original intended meaning is to invite the dissolution rather than evolution of one's Christian faith

I thought I had you people broke of speaking in absolutes. . . ;-)

I read a good thing recently on the "it all boils down to" meme or trope - something about how the essence is in the vapor not what's left behind- will try to post it.

 

[smcder]

"What is essential about the boiling process is not what has been distilled but what has evaporated - " David Berlinski "The God of the Gaps"

 

[Tyger]

I really do think it all breaks down to this. Sacred texts describing super-beings and creator gods are essentially another societies (separated by time and or culture) speculative and allegorical fiction being misapplied as divine revelation.

Perhaps, except that people en masse were not literate in the past. The ability to write symbols and know their meanings was limited to a very few.

In fact the bias you are presenting is not at all new. It was the norm for modern scholarship to so think of the writings of the past - flights of fancy with no bearing on anything actual.

Following your suggestion, it wouldn't be the first time 'modern men' have misjudged the writings of the past. For a long time Homer was considered just a poet, a spinner of tales, certainly not an historian. It was only with Schliemann that modern scholarship took another look at Homer's writings and realized they were dealing with an historian as well as a poet.

In another example, Pliny the Younger watched the eruption of Vesuvius in 79 A.D. from the safety of a distant island. He described the eruption in great detail in a series of letters after the fact. These descriptions were never taken seriously by scientists until finally a pyroclastic flow was filmed [and there was more detailed observation in modern times] and it was revealed that Pliny the Younger had a very keen observational eye and had, in fact, reported accurately what takes place during a volcanic eruption.

Your sweeping dismissal of ancient myth and story doesn't jive with what we know of myth and legend - which is developed by a people [not an individual] and is usually an oral tradition first before being written down. Writing down is the last thing that happens.

 

[trainedobserver]

Your sweeping dismissal of ancient myth and story doesn't jive with what we know of myth and legend - which is developed by a people [not an individual] and is usually an oral tradition first before being written down. Writing down is the last thing that happens.

Doesn't jive?

Oral history is problematic for all the obvious reasons and soon become fireside tales. Fantastic tales of extraordinary abilities and origins have continued until the present day. All of these modern tales have proven, as far as I have been able to tell, to be fabrications, deceptions, misinterpretations, or delusions. Many supernatural claims are made, there are none that pass close objective inspection to my knowledge. A good example of this is the myth propagated by snake handling Christians that we saw put to the lie recently.

 

[Tyger]

Doesn't jive?

Oral history is problematic for all the obvious reasons and soon become fireside tales. Fantastic tales of extraordinary abilities and origins have continued until the present day. All of these modern tales have proven, as far as I have been able to tell, to be fabrications, deceptions, misinterpretations, or delusions. Many supernatural claims are made, there are none that pass close objective inspection to my knowledge. A good example of this is the myth propagated by snake handling Christians that we saw put to the lie recently.

You're basing your evaluation on what we observe with literate societies after stories have been written down. Prior to literacy the memory is prodigious - and consistent. Story cycles like Homer's Illiad and the Odyssey, and the Finlandish epic of the Kalevala, all were memorized (in/with rhyme and beat) and are just two examples.

I am not referencing personal tales and the human tendency to exploit the gullible, even be it a 'tall tale' about the size of one's fish catch or the bear one fought bare-handed. The people entrusted to the people's myths usually occupied a very special place in the community - spent years in apprenticeship to a 'master-singer' or story-teller before they were worthy to recite the tales on their own. Accuracy was key - though I'm not saying variations did not creep in over the generations - yet the goal would not have been personal elaboration in the modern sense.

Again - and this is an old point of contention between us - the ancients (and not-so-ancients) were speaking out of personal experience of the subtler realms. What they spoke could be verified by any one of their numbers in their experience. Now, in a time when the subtler realms have been closed off and must be accessed in different ways, their reality becomes an object of speculation, fanciful elaboration and outright disbelief. The considerable 'trickster' aspects of the intellect have become the base-line for assessment. The side aspects of the function of the intellect - among many such side effects as you mention - are doubt, disbelief and delusion, and misinterpretation, as you say.

 

[trainedobserver]

Yes, we disagree. It is my contention that if ancient humans were in touch with the subtler realms through which they acquired supernatural powers and insight, it would continue up until today. Instead, what we see are people claiming to be doing such, but who time and again prove to be anything but. No one has demonstrated super powers today, spiritual or otherwise, that I can tell. What you get are pallor tricks passing for miracles, signs, and wonders.

I think we can point to specific examples of such claims, as I did with Jesus, and see that these characters are simply that, fictional characters. Fictional characters are often amalgamations of aspects of different real people known to the author. One might argue that is all fictional characters can ever be, not that the authors of any Biblical story could have known the people they allegedly were writing about. In the case the Jewish Messiah, there were many who claimed to be so, and many who used that name. There is a particularly good BBC special about that somewhere. Some were indeed magicians, and I mean the slight of hand sort, who amazed crowds and gave a good show, just like still do today.

 

[trainedobserver]

It has been my experience that serious attempts to gain some sort of understanding of the Biblical tales and their original intended meaning is to invite the dissolution rather than evolution of one's Christian faith

I do not understand this statement but I would agree that we are de evolving rather that getting smarter, stronger, and more spiritual.

That is to say that when you understand the origins the Bible, you begin to understand that it isn't what it is presented as being, and therefore rather than your faith being strengthened or grown, it tends to evaporate. Or so is my personal experience and observation of others.