If the subject had come up I would have voiced my opinion, you bet. Anecdotal data crunching will tell us very little. Garbage in/garbage out. Sorry you just got hit be a hurricane dude, but get the bug out of your ass about me already.
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September 3, 2017 — Dr. Jacques Vallee
- Thread starter Gene Steinberg
- Start date
Han
piscator ψ
Your file? is that not Genes/Paracast Audio? I am not sure that I want to click on 'copyrighted' material.
You might argue that it is for educational purposes, but unless you are teaching an axe grinding class, I don't think I would interpret it as fair use.
You could have just linked the episode and time code, but I suspect that would not have been half as satisfying? complete waste of time and actually a little unsettling that you went to the trouble of investing all that effort into editing the audio.
If you want to make Chris look bad you might wan't to invest a little thought and effort into your own behaviour, because you seem to have a 'fascination' and a complete lack of any semblance of an understanding of irony or politic.
Why don't you do your own show? you could even invite Chris on to talk about the issues you have?
I am all for criticism if it is constructive or has good intent for positive change, but I don't support perceived vendettas.
marduk
quelling chaos since 2352BC
Why does everybody assume the US military is capable of just about anything?
I don't think their technology has approached anything like science fiction levels. For one, they use a lowest cost contractor model. For another, they make very shortsighted long term capital decisions based on funding whims.
If you zoom out, they shoot bits of metal at people using gunpowder for the most part. That tech has been around for hundreds of years.
They blow stuff up with chemicals. That bit has been around for hundreds of years, too. Their planes run on gas, their cars run on gas, just like everybody else's do.
The newest tech they have seems to be nukes and non fly by wire aircraft. Which is pretty cool... but not science fiction.
If you want to look at their high tech, look at the X37B. Pretty cool, but at the end of the day it's just a small remotely operated shuttle. Basic control surfaces, and all it does is what the shuttle did: it's basically a short haul truck.
They don't have frickin' sharks with frickin' laser beams. They don't have troops deployed with jetpacks, they don't have troops deployed with powered armour, they don't appear to have a working quantum computer... and if they did, they probably wouldn't know what to do with it.
They leak their best minds to the private sector from what I hear, as well.
Government agencies are notorious for being backward, slow, bureaucratic, and cheap. Hell, even they buy their iPhones from apple like the rest of us and think they are fancy.
Why do people look at them in awe? It seems if there were some kind of disinformation campaign, it's about their advanced capability that is the lie.
marduk
quelling chaos since 2352BC
I think 99.999% of what most people put forward is bunk - including my own - but it doesn't stop me from being a bit of a fanboi about some of them either.
Take Uncle Stan. He's clearly out to lunch with MJ-12. He's clearly out to lunch with his 50's style approach to the whole phenomena. So many things I think he's just plain wrong about.
But I respect the guy. He has some actual science under his belt, like Valee. He's been a pivotal figure in my thinking and many others, like Valee. He approaches stuff in general with a logical mindset, like Valee. He's right when he says that you actually can get there from here, just like Valee.
You can respect somebody and still criticize them. Hell, I'd say you can't actually respect someone unless you can.
Han
piscator ψ
Could not agree more with that.
Han
piscator ψ
Because they rule the world.
marduk
quelling chaos since 2352BC
If they rule the world, they're doing a bad job of it. Ukraine, anybody?
Remember what happens when you throw money at a government organization. You accrete an organization who's sole existence is to keep existing. That's the danger of the military-industrial complex. It *has* to exist now, the same way that some businesses are *too big to fail.*
I've helped one of our major organizations deregulate, and wow was there waste. I helped take over a major crown corporation. More waste.
I have buddies who came out of the military - most of our security folks have been either involved in the military or the police force. They tell us crazy stories of old technology, older leadership, and glacial pacing.
SIGINT is one thing. Their capabilities there are obviously huge. But SIGINT is something you can throw money at and solve with hardware instead of agility, I believe. That's what ECHELON and CARNIVORE were about, right?
Google does what they did on a far larger scale and would put them to shame. They are an information eating machine that craps out money. ECHELON is an information eating machine that also eats money and craps out... something? That gets interpreted by low level $30 or $50k per year analysts working for some company with the lowest bid? To tell a semi-retired desk jockey... something?
If you were a bright light in silicon valley, would you go work for the US Army or the CIA or Google? One gives you a pension in 20 years or something. The other gives you the potential to have millions in your pocket in a decade. Hmm... let me think about that...
Government is profoundly stupid, slow, and outdated. Why does anyone think the military is any different?
marduk
quelling chaos since 2352BC
I just remembered a funny story.
I was once working for a company up here that got bought by a company in Houston. Consequently, I worked quite a bit down there, and doing a project to deploy networks and email for them globally. I got to know this one super smart techie guy that taught me a lot about the lower levels of how networks worked, how to crash NT machines remotely, sniff packets, and even take control of other machines, even through a firewall. Honestly, the stuff he showed me was pretty hairy over the course of a few weeks.
He then invited me to 'go meet some people' who could use a guy like me, who understood the math behind problems as well as write some low level code to take advantage of things. He didn't say which agency it was for exactly, but I got the gist of either the FBI, CIA, or something military - most likely some kind of subcontractor, I would think.
I reminded him that I was Canadian, not American, and he said something to the effect that 'it wouldn't be an issue' and 'they could fix that.'
But he said something to the effect of to expect a lot of fun but not much money and I couldn't ever tell anybody about it. I do also remember that he would do everything by hand, right there from the command line. I think that was the way they rolled - a kind of 'roll your own' approach to things.
I said no and he vanished, he never showed up at the office again that I saw. I wonder sometimes what would have happened if I said yes.
I was once working for a company up here that got bought by a company in Houston. Consequently, I worked quite a bit down there, and doing a project to deploy networks and email for them globally. I got to know this one super smart techie guy that taught me a lot about the lower levels of how networks worked, how to crash NT machines remotely, sniff packets, and even take control of other machines, even through a firewall. Honestly, the stuff he showed me was pretty hairy over the course of a few weeks.
He then invited me to 'go meet some people' who could use a guy like me, who understood the math behind problems as well as write some low level code to take advantage of things. He didn't say which agency it was for exactly, but I got the gist of either the FBI, CIA, or something military - most likely some kind of subcontractor, I would think.
I reminded him that I was Canadian, not American, and he said something to the effect that 'it wouldn't be an issue' and 'they could fix that.'
But he said something to the effect of to expect a lot of fun but not much money and I couldn't ever tell anybody about it. I do also remember that he would do everything by hand, right there from the command line. I think that was the way they rolled - a kind of 'roll your own' approach to things.
I said no and he vanished, he never showed up at the office again that I saw. I wonder sometimes what would have happened if I said yes.
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Randall
J. Randall Murphy
Hmm. I suppose it's fair to say that people's impressions and opinions evolve and change over time, and that Chris' comments were probably more in context of the issue at hand rather than Vallée personally, but I'll let Chris be the one to confirm any of that.
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Sometimes you do need limits w/ your anonymous vitriol "withoutlimits"! Anyone that has ever listened to even a few Paracast shows knows that I am one of Jacques Vallee's biggest fans and have said this dozens of times on the program. Sure, I disagree with some of what he writes/says and I disagree on the subject of how valuable huge conglomerated databases might be, but that doesn't mean I hold him in any form of disregard, malice or disrespect. I think he is arguably one of the most important figures in the history of the field and his theories and observations have been extremely crucial to my thinking since I read his first book almost 50 years ago. The French accent was done as bad comedic relief from being uncomfortable about dogging one of my heroes. If you don't like me or my involvement w/ the show, that's your personal issue. Don't listen. If you do, you are advised to somehow find a way to deal with your personal problem.
withoutlimits09
Paranormal Adept
Chris, all of what you said might be true, but in the sound file you clearly mock the guy, his accent, and his ideas. To date I don't think he has ever done so to you. Moreover, you were not even brave enough to take this issue up with him on the show. I don't think you politely disagreed with his views or his research, you clearly mocked him in a very disrespectful way. Vallee would never act that way towards another legitimate researcher, in such an obnoxious way. This might be why Vallee is so revered, and you get upset because people didn't buy your book, or really respect your research. It goes both ways.
withoutlimits09
Paranormal Adept
Again, I have no problem with honest disagreement. However, that isn't what Chris did in the audio file. He mocked Vallee, made fun of his accent and called his life's approach to research "BUNK." That isn't a very intelligent objection to one's work. It is school yard talk. I would have been fine if Chris said, "I like Vallee, but I disagree with some of his methods." However, he went on a disrespectful rant where he mocked Vallee's accent. You could hear the disdain oozing out of Chris's tone.
marduk
quelling chaos since 2352BC
Oh come on man.
Respectful mocking is a sign of camaraderie just like a good old roast.
Vallee is a scientist. Even if he heard that statement, he'd probably be the first one laughing about it.
You are entitled to your opinion, and I disagree w/ your opinion. I was simply making an emphatic point. I even apologized to him at the end of it! You've had your say, move it along and stop dogging me. Strike 1
marduk
quelling chaos since 2352BC
Wow, you really would have slipped a gear when Biedny was on the air then.
Pass the grey poupon while you're at it.
withoutlimits09
Paranormal Adept
You take everything as a personal dig when someone challenges you. I just like to hold people accountable for their views and note the inconsistencies. In this particular instance, everyone is loving how well Vallee did on the show, and how happy you were to have him. That reminded me of the time where you openly mocked him, made fun of his accent, and called his work bunk. To me, your disrespectful tone, when Vallee was not able to defend himself, was totally different than when he was being interviewed. I simply noted the inconsistency, and provided evidence to underline why I felt the way I did.
That's all, it is only a personal dig because you actually sound pretty ignorant in your statement, and since I am the one that brought it everyone's attention, it must be a personal dig. Nope, it is not, I am just noting the inconsistencies. I do the same thing with Ray Stanford. I present pretty straightforward and thoughtful objections to the way he handles his evidence versus how much hypes it, and you get very defensive and take those objections as personal digs.
This is an open message board, there are many uses, sometimes we agree, sometimes we do not agree, however, not everything is a personal vendetta. However, I do find you to be rather snarky on-air, and wonder why you even bother with this field given that most episodes (over the last few years) usually start with you ranting negatively about something or someone.
SRL+
Paranormal Adept
In relation to the severed cable leading up to the camera, I cannot envision Occam’s razor suggesting an invisible demon as the culprit rather than some type of military experiment in which the researchers at the ranch being researched themselves.
Of course, I could be incorrect….
withoutlimits09
Paranormal Adept
I thought this was a pretty reasonable reply, I kept to the point, noted my objection, and provided a link that illustrated how I came to my objection. I don't recall a personal attack.
However, the Paracast is a (admittedly) dictatorship, and the hosts are bullies (not an attack, I have again provided evidence for my conclusion). Here is a screenshot of a personal message, titled "strike 2," of the threats both Gene and Chris sent me. I am sure I will be banned for this (again), but please read their threats and compare them with my posts. I should not be privately bullied on a public forum where we are encouraged to express our views and objections. I am a thoughtful contributor to this site who simply disagrees with the hosts on a couple of larger topics. Shouldn't be the end of the world!
Just look at the amount of "likes" I have accumulated, I have more likes than posts.
Most of my interactions don't even involve Chris or Gene, yet I'm treated as a troll account and threatened with banishment...
Come on, this site needs to be better than this, the hosts need to understand not everyone shares their views, or their cynicism, and that should be OK...
Below are personal messages I have received from the hosts of this show. My replies were pretty benign and largely respectful...
Attachments
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Han
piscator ψ
Almost fell for it NOT!
Come on, I just don't get it. Are you trying to make yourself look bad?
In your post you are basically saying "I am the victim".
It is quite ironic that you talk about cynicism.
Seriously if I was commissioned and given a huge team and unlimited resources and a year to do it, I still don't think I could come up with a better way to make you look more _____* than this:
VS
I was not invited into those conversations you posted so I won't read them, but I would guess that you had the opportunity to resolve the issues privately, and you have chosen to post them in a thread about J Vallee.
This does not help the forum:
As for trying to torpedo Chris in terms of Vallee, you are meddling with somebodies vocation, not like for you and me who just use the forum, this is Chris's career.
And by the same measure you are not helping the show either, what did you want to happen? for somebody to tell Vallee about what Chris said in a previous episode? Why don't you call him up, but you might be disappointed because if you take away the context, anybody who speaks their mind can be made to look all sorts of things, and even more so if they have a sense of humour.
Anybody who can't see that the paranormal and humour are linked, is in for an extremely slapstick hard fall, flat on their face.
It is pretty obvious that Vallee has a sense of humour and I very much doubt he would be offended, and vice versa: I reckon if Vallee did:
Chris would be crying with laughter, because he has a sense of humour and would probably take it as a compliment.
I can imagine it very lucidly and it is making me laugh as I type this.
The way I see it you are willing to throw me, the show and the forum under the bus, to satisfy some misplaced sense of yearning for personal revenge.
But what will probably happen is that you will just throw yourself under the ban bus instead.
I can read your posts now but I wont be able to if you are banned, so your message wont be heard, if it was me I would try to resolve the issues in private because: appealing for support, on a platform provided by the very people you are attacking, will inevitably (and rightly so imho) be seen as 'bad form'.
Also I genuinely think you should take a moment to think about why what you have written could be seen as a personal attack, remembering that you know who Chris is, but he doesn't know who you are.
I tried to say it before the internet is a funny thing, it all too easy, to get infuriated very quickly, but most problems could be avoided by the way we write what we write.
There is not one person on the forum (including myself) that I have not disagreed with at some stage, yet I have never been banned? I have written nearly 2000 messages so it is not exactly like I haven't talked about controversial and emotional topics. There are ways to disagree if you are prepared to work at it.
One man's rubbish is another man's gold, that is life.
Please can we go back to discussing the episode.
*fill in with your choice of word (e.g. sanctimonious)
Come on, I just don't get it. Are you trying to make yourself look bad?
In your post you are basically saying "I am the victim".
It is quite ironic that you talk about cynicism.
Seriously if I was commissioned and given a huge team and unlimited resources and a year to do it, I still don't think I could come up with a better way to make you look more _____* than this:
VS
I was not invited into those conversations you posted so I won't read them, but I would guess that you had the opportunity to resolve the issues privately, and you have chosen to post them in a thread about J Vallee.
This does not help the forum:
you say but your actions say otherwise (as evidenced by your sharing of private messages).
As for trying to torpedo Chris in terms of Vallee, you are meddling with somebodies vocation, not like for you and me who just use the forum, this is Chris's career.
And by the same measure you are not helping the show either, what did you want to happen? for somebody to tell Vallee about what Chris said in a previous episode? Why don't you call him up, but you might be disappointed because if you take away the context, anybody who speaks their mind can be made to look all sorts of things, and even more so if they have a sense of humour.
Anybody who can't see that the paranormal and humour are linked, is in for an extremely slapstick hard fall, flat on their face.
It is pretty obvious that Vallee has a sense of humour and I very much doubt he would be offended, and vice versa: I reckon if Vallee did:
Chris would be crying with laughter, because he has a sense of humour and would probably take it as a compliment.
I can imagine it very lucidly and it is making me laugh as I type this.
The way I see it you are willing to throw me, the show and the forum under the bus, to satisfy some misplaced sense of yearning for personal revenge.
But what will probably happen is that you will just throw yourself under the ban bus instead.
I can read your posts now but I wont be able to if you are banned, so your message wont be heard, if it was me I would try to resolve the issues in private because: appealing for support, on a platform provided by the very people you are attacking, will inevitably (and rightly so imho) be seen as 'bad form'.
Also I genuinely think you should take a moment to think about why what you have written could be seen as a personal attack, remembering that you know who Chris is, but he doesn't know who you are.
I tried to say it before the internet is a funny thing, it all too easy, to get infuriated very quickly, but most problems could be avoided by the way we write what we write.
There is not one person on the forum (including myself) that I have not disagreed with at some stage, yet I have never been banned? I have written nearly 2000 messages so it is not exactly like I haven't talked about controversial and emotional topics. There are ways to disagree if you are prepared to work at it.
One man's rubbish is another man's gold, that is life.
Please can we go back to discussing the episode.
*fill in with your choice of word (e.g. sanctimonious)
marduk
quelling chaos since 2352BC
Let's break down what you're saying here, man.
You're saying the hosts are bullies and it's a dictatorship. And yet you're here posting about that.
Paracast is free and these forums are free and we're guests here. If you don't like the hospitality, just leave.
If you want to show some class, fire Gene & Chris a civil PM on your way out why and then just go. Nobody asked you to be here.
You're saying the hosts are bullies and it's a dictatorship. And yet you're here posting about that.
Paracast is free and these forums are free and we're guests here. If you don't like the hospitality, just leave.
If you want to show some class, fire Gene & Chris a civil PM on your way out why and then just go. Nobody asked you to be here.