• NEW! LOWEST RATES EVER -- SUPPORT THE SHOW AND ENJOY THE VERY BEST PREMIUM PARACAST EXPERIENCE! Welcome to The Paracast+, eight years young! For a low subscription fee, you can download the ad-free version of The Paracast and the exclusive, member-only, After The Paracast bonus podcast, featuring color commentary, exclusive interviews, the continuation of interviews that began on the main episode of The Paracast. We also offer lifetime memberships! Flash! Take advantage of our lowest rates ever! Act now! It's easier than ever to susbcribe! You can sign up right here!

    Subscribe to The Paracast Newsletter!

September 13, 2009 Jason Offutt

I liked the episode and I'm interested in the subject matter. I haven't read the book but I tend to think it might be a little harder to create a taxonomy for purported supernatural beings than it appears. But it's still fun.

"Shadow people" and "Hat man" have been around the internet all this decade (at least). I've always assumed they were popularized by Coast to Coast as both Art Bell and Noory often talked about them. Their "open lines" nights used to often include calls about shadow people. Don't know if they still do.
 
believe it or not, paranormal state's reasoning for 3AM is that Jesus was crucified at 3PM. 3AM is therefore the OPPOSITE and more spooky time.
 
believe it or not, paranormal state's reasoning for 3AM is that Jesus was crucified at 3PM. 3AM is therefore the OPPOSITE and more spooky time.

I saw a more recent episode in which they made "dead time" whatever-the-hell time they felt like. I guess maybe someone finally explained to them that 3am in Nowhere, USA has zero correlation to 3pm in Jeruselem?

I enjoyed this episode. The "parade" of shadow people he describes early in the episode sounds very similar to what I recall seeing in the house I lived in when I was five, only it was during the day and in the living room.
 
Oddly, 3 a.m. and 4 a.m. awakenings have been explained to me through Chinese traditional medicine as being of the kidney meridian. Westerners, apparently have weak kidney and liver energy.
Thinking further about "hatman", my theory right now would be that "hatman" is an archetype of the mysterious, dangerous, and nefarious stranger. Enough people hold this archetype and perhaps they are able to truly create or manifest it, even to people that don't fully hold the archetype themselves.
Just a theory. I'll have to listen to the rest of the show tonight.
Best,
Fahrusha
 
Oddly, 3 a.m. and 4 a.m. awakenings have been explained to me through Chinese traditional medicine as being of the kidney meridian. Westerners, apparently have weak kidney and liver energy.

I'd be interested to know where you heard that, because 3am-5am should correspond with the Lung meridian, and Liver would be 1-3am.
I'm not aware of anything in TCM that would explain seeing a supernatural being at that time of night (or any other time)...though somebody somewhere might have a theory.
 
I was told that by a acupuncture doctor in Chinatown NYC. Sorry for any confusion but I wasn't trying to link the entities to TCM, just the awakenings.
Fahrusha
 
I was told that by a acupuncture doctor in Chinatown NYC. Sorry for any confusion but I wasn't trying to link the entities to TCM, just the awakenings.
Fahrusha

Oh, ok, sorry, yeah in terms of waking up at that time then TCM would have explanations, absolutely.

Did Offutt say in the episode whether the shadow people woke the subjects up or whether they had already woken up when they saw them? I can't remember. That would be interesting to know.
 
I've heard the believe about 3:00 am before; the 'mocking' of demons in causing haunting events to occur on the day-night opposite when Christ died at 3:00 pm. Honestly I'm far more likely to believe that people wake up around 3-3:30 am due to the Chinese meridian/kidney belief. I can tell you, then, that I must have a weak kidney in that I tend to stir myself awake around that time.

When conducting paranormal investigations, during the interview process, anytime I hear a witness account of, "I woke up and..." or "I was just laying down to bed and..." a yellow flag goes up. As Mr. Offutt pointed out the borders of consciousness before sleep are tenuous to the point that one's awareness and perception can be greatly diminished. Simplistically, you're still in that sleep state, or just coming up on it, and the mind and five senses play tricks. I highly doubt events of paranormal nature that occur around sleep, either just before or waking from. That's not to say they aren't compelling events, or that the experiencer doesn't believe in them 100%, I just believe that it's more likely the event was dreamed...even wakingly.

On that note I have a shadow person story; before I met my wife she was raising her son (my step son) in her parent's house. He would wake up very fearful, looking over her shoulder and crying, screaming, and pointing at a 'man' in the room. My son, who was between 4 and 5 at the time, described the stereotypical shadow person...very tall and with the hat. My wife never saw the image, and the room was illuminated during each time my son claimed to see the figure. The visions occurred three to four times over the course of several months, then they stopped. My son, now 21, does not remember seeing the figure, now. What throws me is the fact that my wife never saw the image and my son did, and he saw it in light. I'd be quick to say he imagined it but his description of the figure was dead-on what thousands of other stories match. Very odd, that.

I sat in on a seminar conducted by Rosemary Ellen Guiley who spoke of shadow people specifically. She related much of the same information Mr. Offutt did but she also stated that the 'hat men' shadow breed occasionally wore different hats. The hats were described from the fedora that Mr. Offutt described to Mexican sombreros. Rosemary also stated she had documented thousands of eye-witness testimony to shadow people encounters, related that they, too, appeared to feed off of fear or emotion, and brought up some theories of origin. These theories she listed included demonics, extra-terrestrial, ultra-terrestrial, and the oh-so-common outer dimensional. I should point out that Rosemary was not associating belief when she listed these theories, only speculation as to the origin of shadow people.

It's an interesting topic. I have a lot more to ramble on about regarding the episode (since the ghost hunting discipline of the paranormal is more up my ally) but work calls.

J.
 
Very interesting show! I've been listening to it on and off for a few days now. I love how animated this conversation is!

Anyhooo... just like in Ufology, I find it very intriguing that here we have another extraordinary phenomenon, the 'man in the fedora', where the appearance of its manifestation is contemporaneous with our time period.

Should we be paying attention to this similarity? I think so.

Also, in regards to Sandanfire's comments in his post...
"These theories she listed included demonics, extra-terrestrial, ultra-terrestrial, and the oh-so-common outer dimensional. I should point out that Rosemary was not associating belief when she listed these theories, only speculation as to the origin of shadow people."

I can't say that I entirely agree with you on this.
I think anytime anyone includes demonics in their speculative theories on the source of any given phenomenon, ostensibly is not ruling out and in fact is including those Judea/Christian beliefs in the existence of demons in their speculations. I see nothing wrong with this but it should be noted that when someone includes such entities in their theories, they are in effect linking those beliefs that are integral to that religion to the phenomenon itself.
 
I can't say that I entirely agree with you on this.
I think anytime anyone includes demonics in their speculative theories on the source of any given phenomenon, ostensibly is not ruling out and in fact is including those Judea/Christian beliefs in the existence of demons in their speculations. I see nothing wrong with this but it should be noted that when someone includes such entities in their theories, they are in effect linking those beliefs that are integral to that religion to the phenomenon itself.

I'm on board with you there, but want to put out a small word of warning; the belief in demons is not limited to Judeo-Christian belief systems. Demons and/or fallen angels are prominent in many religious belief systems, though I can see why even including them in the list of culprits as in this case would link such to the supernatural. People shy away from such things at times because of the negative connotation that religion holds. I'm sure me just throwing it out there, or even typing the word 'religion' gives people reading this the heebie-jeebies.

Religion.

On a far more serious note I'm seeing a LOT of parallels between the disciplines of UFO research and ghost hunting, including in some of the battles that Gene and Dave have to fight and what we fight! For instance...
I'm reading a book on demons and demonology. It reads like an encyclopedia and as I'm going through this demon who commands this legion on this level of Hell I'm sitting here wondering how the frak do we, as human beings, KNOW this? Well, people supposedly have summoned demons or made pacts with demons, or used Ouija boards (or other talking boards) to glean this information, right? Sound familiar?
The same BS happens in UFOlogy when someone makes the claim that they have remote viewed the surface of Venus and witnessed cities of people, or they're in psychic talks with aliens from the Pleides(sp?) planets. No proof, just story, and people claiming to have knowledge there's no way to backup or verify. It makes me grind my teeth!

I've noticed a LOT more parallels between the two disciplines but I won't derail the conversation with such. Suffice it to say that 'demon' (which has a good connotation in some belief systems, btw) was but ONE possible explanation offered by Rosemary. She wasn't claiming that that's 'definitely' what shadow persons were.

Thoughts?

Jeff.
 
From Wikipedia, Carl Jung's idea of the shadow:

"In Jungian psychology, the shadow or "shadow aspect" is a part of the unconscious mind consisting of repressed weaknesses, shortcomings, and instincts. It is one of the three most recognizable archetypes, the others being the anima and animus and the persona. "Everyone carries a shadow," Jung wrote, "and the less it is embodied in the individual's conscious life, the blacker and denser it is." <sup id="cite_ref-0" class="reference">[1]</sup> It may be (in part) one's link to more primitive animal instincts,<sup id="cite_ref-1" class="reference">[2]</sup> which are superseded during early childhood by the conscious mind....

"The shadow may appear in dreams and visions in various forms, often as a feared or despised person or being, and may act either as an adversary or as a servant. It typically has the same apparent gender as one's persona. It is possible that it might appear with dark features to a person of any race, since it represents a distant and indiscriminate aspect of the mind. The shadow's appearance and role depend greatly on the living experience of the individual, because much of the shadow develops in the individual's mind rather than simply being inherited in the collective unconscious...."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_(psychology)

Jung's idea of the shadow doesn't explain every aspect of the paranormal shadow experience, but it does shed some light on it (so to speak). Unlike Freud, Jung was not interested so much pathological psychology, but in the psychology of the average "healthy" person. So seeing shadows isn't indicative of a disturbed mental state. Everyone has repressed desires, roads not taken, and just plain animal reactions to life that we must not express.

Jung's shadow also answers David's question about the dualism of black/white, good/evil, this/that, etc. The shadow is dark not because it is evil but because "it represents a distant and indiscriminate aspect of the mind". I would say that the attribution of malevolence to a shadow may be explained by the mental state of the experiencer. It sounds like an utterly frightening experience, and perhaps there is a feedback loop between the fear of the experiencer to the projected shadow.

Apart from Jung, it seems to me that we are all "shadow people". Physically, if we are lit from behind in an otherwise dark background, we are shadows. It's difficult for a person seeing us to determine whether we have good or bad intentions, and if the person is by himself, this can produce some anxiety. Only approaching the "shadow person" can determine whether he has good, bad, or still indeterminate motives, or no motives toward you at all (we are just standing there). I'm not saying that the paranormal shadow people are misidentified real people, simply that motive is difficult to determine even in real people -- and in fact, even in those who are well lit. Fear in the observer of either a stranger or a paranormal shadow person contributes to the determination of motive.
 
From memory and I haven't had a chance to check, but around 2-3am is apparently the part of the sleep cycle (on average) and the one where the REM is most prominent.

I think it is around the 5th-7th hour of the sleep pattern (which on average seems to be around 2am-3am for most people).

This is where most of the dream state is encountered. I think they refer it to Stage 2-3 of sleep (out of the Four Stages)

Edit: However I am interested to see why 3am does pop up so often as a few other memebrs have pointed out. It may simply be coincidence or that some comment or observations have been made many years ago that has been picked up.
 
I don't think this has been mentioned but I heard that a disproprtionate number of people die around the 3am time. Given the normal human 24 hour cycle it is when we are physiologically at our 'lowest ebb'.
 
But let's look at the the "shadow people" as phenomena independent of the observer. What sort of physical explanation can we come up with? Regular shadows require light to appear, and shadows sharpness or fuzziness depend on the lighting and the background onto which the shadow is projected. Also, shadows are not entirely black; their hue depends on the light source and the ambient light. Yet the shadow people seem to be described as pure black, sharply delineated shapes.

The general lighting conditions under which shadow people are seen are of interest, as well. Offutt's examples take place mostly at night and less often during the day. The shadow people are, of course, never seen in complete darkness -- this could be made into a Zen koan. But remaining with the materialist view, the universe exists even when we do not or cannot observe it.

I was interested in the experiences Offutt described in which the observers intereacted with the shadow people. Speaking to the shadow person seemed to result in its disappearance. This sort of shadow seems more like the Jungian shadow that I discuss in the post above. Once you speak to it, the spell, so to speak, is broken. The observer snaps back into a normal conscious state, like when you stir yourself out of semi-dream or sleep paralysis state. But when observers interact with the shadows -- or when the shadow interacts with the observer -- this could indicate an independently existing entity. Touching or being touched by the entity causes coolness or numbness. Shining a flashlight on the entity, as in the shadow guard at the prison causes the entity to respond to the light, but still not to the observer -- and apparently the flashlight did not illuminate the shadow.

So what sorts of phenomena in paranormal history cause numbness? I remember something about white residue from some sort of UFO landing that caused the woman who touched it not long after to have her hand and arm go numb -- which persisted somewhat the rest of her life. More prosaically, electric shock can cause numbness. Less prosaically, UFOs seem to cause electromagnetic fields that disturb the electrical technology nearby. Are shadow beings related to the UFO phenomena? Who knows? But I think it's an interesting parallel. Perhaps shadow people and UFOs are both interdimensional phenomena, and the technology (with the UFOs) or innate ability (with the shadow entities) to jump into our space involve torsion of electromagnetic fields, causing electrical disruptions. Light is, of course, an electromagnetic phenomenon.

Regarding the shadow guard, I find it fascinating the reaction of the entity when light was shone upon it, both physical and behavioral. Physically, the light did not illuminate the shadow. The only way this could happen would be if the light was completely absorbed by the shadow. This reminds of black holes, which as theoretical constructs, absorb light completely. I say theoretically because I don;t think that black holes have been directly observed. There are observations that may be explained theoretically by black holes, but I believe the gravitation-heavy (haha) cpsmology is ripe for a big paradigm shift. I think the ideas of the electrical universe and plasma cosmology are more compelling. But that's a different story. There may not be black holes, but that doesn't mean that there isn't a theoretical construct that might explain a "shadow" that absorbs light but does not reflect it. Maybe the shadow is an opposite of a mirror, which reflects light but doesn't absorb it (at least a "perfect" mirror would do this).

To be purely speculative an independent shadow entity would be using or being subject to an interdimensional "portal". Those using some sort of technology or innate ability to jump through this portal have intentions, whatever they might be. Those subject to a portal unintentionally have no intentions. Like the shadow prison guard, they are unaware that they are being observed on another plane -- they react to certain stimulus like light, but do not attribute the stimulus to us, the observers. Perhaps whayt the shadow prison guard experienced when a light was shone on his arm was the same cold tingly numbness that entity observers on our plane experience when touching or being touched by a shadow entity.
 
The best way I can describe the Shadow fedora-wearing entity that attacked my friend (then me, yet didn't succeed) was it was almost like (in action and intent) one of those Dementor creatures from the Harry Potter movies. This thing literally inhaled my friend into a sitting position in bed. Then tried to inhale something from me, but couldn't do it. CREEPY.
 
But let's look at the the "shadow people" as phenomena independent of the observer. What sort of physical explanation can we come up with? Regular shadows require light to appear, and shadows sharpness or fuzziness depend on the lighting and the background onto which the shadow is projected. Also, shadows are not entirely black; their hue depends on the light source and the ambient light. Yet the shadow people seem to be described as pure black, sharply delineated shapes.

The general lighting conditions under which shadow people are seen are of interest, as well. Offutt's examples take place mostly at night and less often during the day. The shadow people are, of course, never seen in complete darkness -- this could be made into a Zen koan. But remaining with the materialist view, the universe exists even when we do not or cannot observe it.

I was interested in the experiences Offutt described in which the observers intereacted with the shadow people. Speaking to the shadow person seemed to result in its disappearance. This sort of shadow seems more like the Jungian shadow that I discuss in the post above. Once you speak to it, the spell, so to speak, is broken. The observer snaps back into a normal conscious state, like when you stir yourself out of semi-dream or sleep paralysis state. But when observers interact with the shadows -- or when the shadow interacts with the observer -- this could indicate an independently existing entity. Touching or being touched by the entity causes coolness or numbness. Shining a flashlight on the entity, as in the shadow guard at the prison causes the entity to respond to the light, but still not to the observer -- and apparently the flashlight did not illuminate the shadow.

So what sorts of phenomena in paranormal history cause numbness? I remember something about white residue from some sort of UFO landing that caused the woman who touched it not long after to have her hand and arm go numb -- which persisted somewhat the rest of her life. More prosaically, electric shock can cause numbness. Less prosaically, UFOs seem to cause electromagnetic fields that disturb the electrical technology nearby. Are shadow beings related to the UFO phenomena? Who knows? But I think it's an interesting parallel. Perhaps shadow people and UFOs are both interdimensional phenomena, and the technology (with the UFOs) or innate ability (with the shadow entities) to jump into our space involve torsion of electromagnetic fields, causing electrical disruptions. Light is, of course, an electromagnetic phenomenon.

Regarding the shadow guard, I find it fascinating the reaction of the entity when light was shone upon it, both physical and behavioral. Physically, the light did not illuminate the shadow. The only way this could happen would be if the light was completely absorbed by the shadow. This reminds of black holes, which as theoretical constructs, absorb light completely. I say theoretically because I don;t think that black holes have been directly observed. There are observations that may be explained theoretically by black holes, but I believe the gravitation-heavy (haha) cpsmology is ripe for a big paradigm shift. I think the ideas of the electrical universe and plasma cosmology are more compelling. But that's a different story. There may not be black holes, but that doesn't mean that there isn't a theoretical construct that might explain a "shadow" that absorbs light but does not reflect it. Maybe the shadow is an opposite of a mirror, which reflects light but doesn't absorb it (at least a "perfect" mirror would do this).

To be purely speculative an independent shadow entity would be using or being subject to an interdimensional "portal". Those using some sort of technology or innate ability to jump through this portal have intentions, whatever they might be. Those subject to a portal unintentionally have no intentions. Like the shadow prison guard, they are unaware that they are being observed on another plane -- they react to certain stimulus like light, but do not attribute the stimulus to us, the observers. Perhaps whayt the shadow prison guard experienced when a light was shone on his arm was the same cold tingly numbness that entity observers on our plane experience when touching or being touched by a shadow entity.

I enjoyed your post interesting ideas put forward.
 
Finally had a chance to listen to the show.

At first, my BS detector was going off so much, it was hard to hear what the guest was saying. But as the discussion went along, I was drawn in more, especially when David brought up his experiences.

Then, towards the end of the program, I was struck by the story Offutt told of a woman he interviewed whose encounters with a "shadow person" were preceded by an audible heartbeat in the house.

That brought something to mind that I hadn't thought about since I don't know when: a story my father told me long ago, then we all forgot about it.

The event would have taken place around 1972 or '74. My family was living on a corner of the little homestead my Irish ancestors carved out of the rolling hills of Wisconsin back in the 1870s. My ancestors established then helped build the little Catholic church that was the center of their farming community, and that church was only 1 mile from my house. It was flanked by the customary cemetery and large rectory, where the parish priest lived.

As my father tells the story, I would have been barely out of diapers at the time, fast asleep when our phone rang at about 10 or 11 p.m. one night. My father answered the phone, and it was our parish priest. He was obviously upset, my dad said, and he asked if my parents would please come out to the rectory right away. He didn't offer details, but I suppose the tone in his voice made my dad understand that whatever had happened was too important to waste time talking about on the phone.

My parents and grandparents were always heavily involved in our little church, and we had our priests over for supper all the time. I think Father must have felt he could trust my parents, plus we were so close that Dad could get there in just five minutes.

Father was waiting for my dad at the door to the rectory, looking pale and obviously shaken. As Dad walked up to the house, all the windows were lit up as though Father had turned every single light on. This was a very large two story, 6-bedroom house, with an office, living room, dining room, and kitchen/dining area on the first floor--all the bedrooms were upstairs. They quickly went into the living room, the largest room on the first floor, and Dad asked what was wrong.

Father then told him that he was so sorry to call so late at night, but he just couldn't stand up to it any more by himself. And living out in the middle of nowhere as we did, he didn't know what else to do.

He told my dad that the house was breathing, that the Devil was in the house. But as soon as my dad arrived, the breathing had stopped, Father said. Of course this wasn't the sort of thing my dad expected to hear. His first thought was that that was crazy, but then again he had known and respected Father for more than a few years, and he had to believe that if he said he heard the house breathing, then he must have heard the house breathing! And why would he say the Devil was there if something hadn't happened to make that clear to him? And he couldn't stand up to it anymore himself.

My dad stayed and talked with Father for maybe the next hour or so, not about the breathing but about anything else he could think of until Father had calmed down and said he was going to be fine, and Dad could go back home. And from that day on, Father never uttered another word about it. And my dad never brought it up with him, either.

So there you have it--take it for what it's worth. There was no mention of shadow people, but a weird breathing sound and then something other than just that sound of breathing must have manifested itself that night in that house. Guess we'll never know what, though.

shadow-person-red-eyes.jpg
 
It sounds like that 'breathing' phenomenon brought on a panic attack hence why the good Father desperately needed company at that moment when he made that phone call. Very interesting story! Thanks for sharing!
 
Back
Top