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Ray Stanford — May 18, 2014 Episode

Lot's of people claim to have physical evidence, but then again, so what? We've all heard of the Bob White artifact. Maybe that should make Bob White, "the most important person in ufology". And we've all heard from the "leading figures in the field". So what? Unless Ray shows up with Klaatu and a flying saucer complete with license plates and a registration from the Pleiades Star System Department of Interstellar Vehicles, I think Ray's status as "the most important person in ufology" might be a little exaggerated. But even then, his claim wouldn't be so much one of importance as one on fame.

But don't get me wrong. Ray's an interesting character, and I admire your tenacity to get the goods and openly disclose them. What I'm trying to get across is that my idea of important when it comes to people, in ufology, has to do with those who possess knowledge acquired from firsthand experience. We call them experiencers, and their validity doesn't hinge on whether or not they have evidence stashed away someplace that will make the skeptics finally accept the truth, nor does it hinge on whether or not they're famous.

So far as I'm concerned, talking heads like Nick Pope are less important than the lone truck driver or pilot who has had an up-close and undeniable encounter. A real experiencer doesn't need Nick or Ray or you or me to tell them what they already know, and no amount of BS or ridicule or intimidation is going to change that fact. They belong to a unique, and IMO special subset of our civilization who know that we're not the only highly intelligent species in the universe ( and I'm not talking about dolphins and other intelligent animals we're already familiar with ). You know what I mean, and I think you're probably arguing more for the sake of discussion than to disagree ( which is fine. So am I to some extent. ).

Essentially what I'm trying to say with respect to this issue of importance, is that no matter how different each experiencer might be in other respects, they are all bound by a common, yet extraordinarily profound thread in terms of world views. Being inside the ketchup bottle, sometimes it's easy to forget just how different our worldview is from those who have never had a UFO experience. It's like something that only those inside the family ( so to speak ) can truly understand, and in this context within ufology, there's nothing more important than family, and it doesn't feel right to me to say that any one of us is any more or less important than the other.

But isn't Ray also a 1st-hand witness of several close encounters? That would make him a more important investigator than those for who the hunt of UFOs is merely an intellectual pastime, wouldn't it?

But getting back to this whole diatribe about the evidence Ray may or may not have, my personal opinion is that waiting for 'smoking guns' in this field is a foolish endeavor. No single piece of evidence or case by itself will be enough to convince the hard-nosed skeptics or debunkers out there; it is the cumulative aspect of case after case, sighting after sighting, and witness after witness, which should give any open-minded individual the indication that there *is* something truly unusual behind the UFO phenomenon.

Klaatu isn't coming down any time soon; but even if he does one day, we shouldn't wait for him holding our breath.

And if Ray ever decides the timing is finally right & releases whatever it is he has, it's probable that his evidence will strengthen the argument in favor of the non-human nature of the phenomenon --NOT prove it once & for all.
 
But isn't Ray also a 1st-hand witness of several close encounters? That would make him a more important investigator than those for who the hunt of UFOs is merely an intellectual pastime, wouldn't it?... And if Ray ever decides the timing is finally right & releases whatever it is he has, it's probable that his evidence will strengthen the argument in favor of the non-human nature of the phenomenon --NOT prove it once & for all.
YES. Good call. Ray has had a number of sighting experiences—many later encounters filmed w/ super 8mm. Here are some excerpts from the unpublished biography/interview I recorded in 2004:

Chris: In November 1954 your first close-encounter-type event occurred on Padre Island. Could you talk about that event and give some background?

Ray: I’m unsure how close the encounter was, because we are unsure of the distance of the object’s closest approach, but I will summarize the encounter: We had formed the Corpus Christi Flying Saucer Research Society and we learned that there was a [flying saucer] group or club in Brownsville [TX]. We made contact with them and they invited us down [to meet with them]. So, John McCoy and I went there and got together with the group and decided to go to Padre Island that night to watch for UFOs. My twin brother, who hadn’t been present during my earlier sightings, wasn’t into this and just couldn’t bring himself to believe UFOs existed, so he didn’t go with us, but after the experience that night, he changed his mind. It was rather cold, being on November 6th (1954). There were eight of us and, later-on three police officers came along and also witnessed the domed, disc-shaped UFO, making a total of eleven witnesses.
Before the officers arrived on the scene, the first thing that happened was that what looked like a big ball of white cotton candy -- extremely brilliant -- shot across the horizon in the east (over the Gulf of Mexico, heading south-to-north, going in what appeared to be a sine wave (up and down) path, as it went along from right-to-left. This type path is a characteristic thing that people report in UFO sightings that I now interpret as likely being a field effect rather than sloppy servo-mechanical trajectory control. [chuckles] It was extremely exciting to us! I’d have to go back and check my field notes but I think I had a premonition of something like this. We decided it couldn’t have been a meteor, because it was on a horizontal zig-zag path. Meteors don’t travel that way.

We had all read George Adamski’s first book which had come out in October the year before, ’53, and I think we decided since Adamski had implied some telepathy was involved in his supposed contacts, that my possible premonition might have been telepathy, but I certainly no longer interpret it that way. There was simply a premonition, and what was seen was exactly how I described it.

Ray, it’s well known you are graced with heightened abilities of awareness . . .

. . . I’ll have to blame that on my grandmother. She didn’t even know the word psychic but the woman was quite amazing. I’m afraid I inherited such abilities but I think in those early days, I was inclined to take natural precognition--maybe of UFOs going to be in an area, or premonition of what a UFO might look like, and misinterpret them as telepathic messages from extraterrestrials. I don’t think I recognized the extent of my intuitive abilities and therefore... There was one or maybe two UFO experiences that I can think of, off-hand, that certainly (at the time) convinced us that temporarily such abilities in us were increased as a result of those UFO encounters.

Was one of them the November 6th 1954 event?

No, that involved the orange-glowing domed disc that was the next thing that came [into view over the Gulf of Mexico] after the ball of brilliant, glowing cotton candy, going on a zig-zag. The orange-glowing disc approached us and then stopped when a state police car with State Highway patrolman Don Hoyd, his father Ray Hoyd (a deputy sheriff), and deputy sheriff Steve Woods drove up to us on the beach that night in a state highway patrol car. [my italics]

So they actually saw the object? How far away was it from their vantage point?

Oh yes, they clearly saw the object. It’s hard to say how far away it was because we really don’t know how large the object was. It had been approaching us from out over the Gulf of Mexico, but had stopped and hovered when the officers had driven up. Then, after they watched it rather nervously for a while, one the officer, I forget which one -- it’s been so many years -- said he really wanted to get the “heck out of there.” And they did. But later we contacted them and obtained signed affidavits from all three testifying to what they in fact had seen. In both [Ray's first book] Look Up and in FATE Magazine, I published not only the affidavits, but a photograph of the state highway patrolman, Don Hoyd, and of his deputy sheriff father, Ray Hoyd, handing me their signed affidavit attesting to what they saw. [my italics]

Later on as the object ascended and was lost into the sky above us, we headed back toward Brownsville but it, or a different object -- I don’t know which -- came back and zoomed directly overhead, paralleling the street we were on. Although we couldn’t see any dome at that time, the object was glowing just like the notorious green fireball -- a ‘Kelly’, pure, brilliant green. In fact it was so bright, all the white houses down that Brownsville street became temporarily green as it passed over. That was the end of the November 6, 1954, experience, but I can’t say there was anything in the way of heightening ESP [as a result]. That happened dramatically, however, on the encounter we had on Sunday night, October 21, 1956.

It was not on Padre Island but on the salt flats NE of Brownsville maybe half-way between Port Isabel and Brownsville, Texas, a little east of the Port of Brownsville. This actually involved a landing at close range—about 175 feet from us. It circled us for quite some time and excited animal reactions of water birds. It sure excited us! It twice passed within six feet, maybe four feet above our heads. Its diameter was maybe forty feet, and I’d describe it as an ovate spheroid or flattened sphere, glowing a pulsating kind of bluish light. The object pulsed a two-component sound that pulsed precisely with the pulsing surface light.

There was one audible component that sounded like what might occur if you could cover a huge surface with needles and have electrostatic charge passing through those needles into the air in a way it builds up to a maximum potential and then drops back down and builds up again. A kind of a sizzling, an electrical sizzle, but in loud-to-soft, soft-to-loud pulses. A large-scale multi-component-type of thing. Along with that, in the same pulse phase, there was a kind of electric generator hum, but it was pulsed—I’d guess after this long a time that it was maybe in six-second cycles. The intensity of the sound was at a level that enabled you to hear it once the object approached within about eighty feet or so. [He makes a warbling sound]

[chuckles] Ray, the sound you made simulating the object seems like one of those old spooky science-fiction movie soundtracks. Like an early '50s synthesizer sound.

Yep, it was kind of like that, but not exactly. This was a much richer, more multi-component sound. Even more dramatic than the sound was the fact that once the object got about 80 feet [away] from us, for some reason or another we could not move! It’s not as if we thought our bodies were stiff, we just could not move. I guess you could say we couldn’t think ourselves to move. It was weird, yet I don’t think this was fear or shock. It began coming right across over our heads four to six feet above [us] and you could feel as these pulses occurred, our hair would stand on end. As the pulse became louder, our hair would stand up maximally, as if we had our hands on a Van de Graff electrostatic generator. Then as the pulsed died down in sound, our hair would kind of lie down. Then it would come back up and down and come back up . . It was absolutely bizarre and you can imagine four kids in their late teens standing there with this thing passing over our heads.

What was the duration of this particular event where you were in such close proximity to this object?

I would say it was (when the UFO was there in visual range) maybe a half an hour or maybe somewhat less, we were so excited. It circled around us quite a number of times before it actually landed. It was so astonishing. The thing passed over the north side of us, over an area of brackish water, about 300 to 400 feet from us. At that time I remember a quote from Galileo (Or, was it someone else?), something to effect, ‘I wonder if some day men of our world shall stand face to face with living beings from somewhere among the stars…’. This kept going through my mind.

I’m looking at this thing and it’s only 300 to 400 feet away, maybe 20 above the ground and I’m realizing that in moments or in minutes we might have the experience of which Galileo (or whomever) dreamed! It was completely overwhelming and my legs collapsed from under me and I fell down. It wasn’t a faint, I just fell down. Funny thing was I didn’t know this had happened to my twin brother. Years later, when he was telling a mutual friend of ours [the story] his legs, he said, had collapsed under him—just like mine did! That was the first time I’d known it. That’s how little attention I was paying to what was happening to the others.

Who else was there besides the three of you?

John McCoy, Rex, and myself, from Corpus Christi, and Douglas Sharon from Toronto, Canada. Last I heard he was with a museum in California—into archaeology. The last time I saw him was in 1957 in Peru.

What happened then?

After it landed, Douglas wanted us to go up to it He said ‘they’ wanted us to go over there to the landed object. We had a clear-cut agreement we had made on the way down to Brownsville, because I had a strong impression that if we would go down to the salt flats we would encounter a UFO and it might land. The agreement was that if we saw an object land, unless we saw a human-looking person without obvious protective clothing, standing outside it, we would not approach the object too closely. I think it was purely premonition on my part, although I didn’t interpret it that way at that time, I interpreted it as a telepathic message that a landing could occur. But Doug told us we were supposed to go up to the landed object. “They want us to come there!” he kept insisting, and he started to go, but John and I grabbed him. I said, “Doug, you’re not going, it could be dangerous.” I felt that object might be somehow dangerous with radiation and worried about what kind of being or thing could come out of that seemingly alien vehicle, sitting there--either just above the ground or right on the ground. As we held onto Doug, finally---there was no warning—the thing took off in a fraction of a second. It went from ground level into the stratosphere and left a glowing column of ions all the way up, in one second or probably less! That’s how fast this thing left, yet there was never any blast of air that hit us; we never heard any sound or shock wave. It was 175 feet from us and it was gone in a virtual instant!

Then Doug said “You made them leave, they’re upset with us because we didn’t go up there to the craft.” John said something to the effect of, “Maybe we can send them a telepathic message and get them back here.” I don’t know where John got an idea that sounds kind of kooky, but he suggested the four of us join hands in a circle and visualize a ‘white light’ swirling around us clockwise--as seen from above, with that light visualized as expanding out throughout the universe telling whoever had been there a few minutes before, (possibly waiting for us to approach) that, “We’re sorry, please come back.”

So we were standing there in the circle concentrating on this light spinning around, spreading out into the universe, and the thing came back! It came out of the south-south/east and approached us. I had become so excited before this happened, I had gotten a tension neck-ache, but when this thing got within eighty feet of us my neck-ache was gone! I wouldn’t call it ‘a healing’ because as soon as the thing was eighty feet on the other side, the neck-ache came back. We had begun to hear that two component sound which I described, when simultaneously we were paralyzed while just standing there. We could breathe (an autonomic function), but we seemed incapable of voluntary motions!

Well the object went on over us horizontally, moving into the north-north/west and then it climbed up into the sky and was gone. The neck-ache had gotten really bad, so I had to lie down in the back seat of the car because of the pain. So, John, Doug, and Rex were sitting in the front seat of the car.

All of a sudden this thing came back on almost the same course it had taken before, but that time it passed right over the car we were in. We were also paralyzed at that time—even though we were in a metal car. The object went on back up into the sky and was gone. We never had any other encounters with it at all that night that we were aware of. [END of excerpt]
 
I'm less fussed with the "most important" term personally. It's clearly a subjective label from Chris and meant to be a sign of high respect and I'm good with that.

I mean, I respect Chris, and if he respects Stanford, all well and good.

However, I'm also in the camp that data doesn't become evidence until released and independent replication achieved... in this case, if the data is provided to respected scientists, would the same conclusions be reached?

Until the conclusions are replicated, data isn't evidence. It's data and an individual's opinion of that data.

That being said, I'm on the edge of my seat regarding this particular set of data. But I might be there for another decade or two...
 
YES. Good call. Ray has had a number of sighting experiences—many later encounters filmed w/ super 8mm. Here are some excerpts from the unpublished biography/interview I recorded in 2004:

Chris: In November 1954 your first close-encounter-type event occurred on Padre Island. Could you talk about that event and give some background?

Ray: I’m unsure how close the encounter was, because we are unsure of the distance of the object’s closest approach, but I will summarize the encounter: We had formed the Corpus Christi Flying Saucer Research Society and we learned that there was a [flying saucer] group or club in Brownsville [TX]. We made contact with them and they invited us down [to meet with them]. So, John McCoy and I went there and got together with the group and decided to go to Padre Island that night to watch for UFOs. My twin brother, who hadn’t been present during my earlier sightings, wasn’t into this and just couldn’t bring himself to believe UFOs existed, so he didn’t go with us, but after the experience that night, he changed his mind. It was rather cold, being on November 6th (1954). There were eight of us and, later-on three police officers came along and also witnessed the domed, disc-shaped UFO, making a total of eleven witnesses.
Before the officers arrived on the scene, the first thing that happened was that what looked like a big ball of white cotton candy -- extremely brilliant -- shot across the horizon in the east (over the Gulf of Mexico, heading south-to-north, going in what appeared to be a sine wave (up and down) path, as it went along from right-to-left. This type path is a characteristic thing that people report in UFO sightings that I now interpret as likely being a field effect rather than sloppy servo-mechanical trajectory control. [chuckles] It was extremely exciting to us! I’d have to go back and check my field notes but I think I had a premonition of something like this. We decided it couldn’t have been a meteor, because it was on a horizontal zig-zag path. Meteors don’t travel that way.

We had all read George Adamski’s first book which had come out in October the year before, ’53, and I think we decided since Adamski had implied some telepathy was involved in his supposed contacts, that my possible premonition might have been telepathy, but I certainly no longer interpret it that way. There was simply a premonition, and what was seen was exactly how I described it.

Ray, it’s well known you are graced with heightened abilities of awareness . . .

. . . I’ll have to blame that on my grandmother. She didn’t even know the word psychic but the woman was quite amazing. I’m afraid I inherited such abilities but I think in those early days, I was inclined to take natural precognition--maybe of UFOs going to be in an area, or premonition of what a UFO might look like, and misinterpret them as telepathic messages from extraterrestrials. I don’t think I recognized the extent of my intuitive abilities and therefore... There was one or maybe two UFO experiences that I can think of, off-hand, that certainly (at the time) convinced us that temporarily such abilities in us were increased as a result of those UFO encounters.

Was one of them the November 6th 1954 event?

No, that involved the orange-glowing domed disc that was the next thing that came [into view over the Gulf of Mexico] after the ball of brilliant, glowing cotton candy, going on a zig-zag. The orange-glowing disc approached us and then stopped when a state police car with State Highway patrolman Don Hoyd, his father Ray Hoyd (a deputy sheriff), and deputy sheriff Steve Woods drove up to us on the beach that night in a state highway patrol car. [my italics]

So they actually saw the object? How far away was it from their vantage point?

Oh yes, they clearly saw the object. It’s hard to say how far away it was because we really don’t know how large the object was. It had been approaching us from out over the Gulf of Mexico, but had stopped and hovered when the officers had driven up. Then, after they watched it rather nervously for a while, one the officer, I forget which one -- it’s been so many years -- said he really wanted to get the “heck out of there.” And they did. But later we contacted them and obtained signed affidavits from all three testifying to what they in fact had seen. In both [Ray's first book] Look Up and in FATE Magazine, I published not only the affidavits, but a photograph of the state highway patrolman, Don Hoyd, and of his deputy sheriff father, Ray Hoyd, handing me their signed affidavit attesting to what they saw. [my italics]

Later on as the object ascended and was lost into the sky above us, we headed back toward Brownsville but it, or a different object -- I don’t know which -- came back and zoomed directly overhead, paralleling the street we were on. Although we couldn’t see any dome at that time, the object was glowing just like the notorious green fireball -- a ‘Kelly’, pure, brilliant green. In fact it was so bright, all the white houses down that Brownsville street became temporarily green as it passed over. That was the end of the November 6, 1954, experience, but I can’t say there was anything in the way of heightening ESP [as a result]. That happened dramatically, however, on the encounter we had on Sunday night, October 21, 1956.

It was not on Padre Island but on the salt flats NE of Brownsville maybe half-way between Port Isabel and Brownsville, Texas, a little east of the Port of Brownsville. This actually involved a landing at close range—about 175 feet from us. It circled us for quite some time and excited animal reactions of water birds. It sure excited us! It twice passed within six feet, maybe four feet above our heads. Its diameter was maybe forty feet, and I’d describe it as an ovate spheroid or flattened sphere, glowing a pulsating kind of bluish light. The object pulsed a two-component sound that pulsed precisely with the pulsing surface light.

There was one audible component that sounded like what might occur if you could cover a huge surface with needles and have electrostatic charge passing through those needles into the air in a way it builds up to a maximum potential and then drops back down and builds up again. A kind of a sizzling, an electrical sizzle, but in loud-to-soft, soft-to-loud pulses. A large-scale multi-component-type of thing. Along with that, in the same pulse phase, there was a kind of electric generator hum, but it was pulsed—I’d guess after this long a time that it was maybe in six-second cycles. The intensity of the sound was at a level that enabled you to hear it once the object approached within about eighty feet or so. [He makes a warbling sound]

[chuckles] Ray, the sound you made simulating the object seems like one of those old spooky science-fiction movie soundtracks. Like an early '50s synthesizer sound.

Yep, it was kind of like that, but not exactly. This was a much richer, more multi-component sound. Even more dramatic than the sound was the fact that once the object got about 80 feet [away] from us, for some reason or another we could not move! It’s not as if we thought our bodies were stiff, we just could not move. I guess you could say we couldn’t think ourselves to move. It was weird, yet I don’t think this was fear or shock. It began coming right across over our heads four to six feet above [us] and you could feel as these pulses occurred, our hair would stand on end. As the pulse became louder, our hair would stand up maximally, as if we had our hands on a Van de Graff electrostatic generator. Then as the pulsed died down in sound, our hair would kind of lie down. Then it would come back up and down and come back up . . It was absolutely bizarre and you can imagine four kids in their late teens standing there with this thing passing over our heads.

What was the duration of this particular event where you were in such close proximity to this object?

I would say it was (when the UFO was there in visual range) maybe a half an hour or maybe somewhat less, we were so excited. It circled around us quite a number of times before it actually landed. It was so astonishing. The thing passed over the north side of us, over an area of brackish water, about 300 to 400 feet from us. At that time I remember a quote from Galileo (Or, was it someone else?), something to effect, ‘I wonder if some day men of our world shall stand face to face with living beings from somewhere among the stars…’. This kept going through my mind.

I’m looking at this thing and it’s only 300 to 400 feet away, maybe 20 above the ground and I’m realizing that in moments or in minutes we might have the experience of which Galileo (or whomever) dreamed! It was completely overwhelming and my legs collapsed from under me and I fell down. It wasn’t a faint, I just fell down. Funny thing was I didn’t know this had happened to my twin brother. Years later, when he was telling a mutual friend of ours [the story] his legs, he said, had collapsed under him—just like mine did! That was the first time I’d known it. That’s how little attention I was paying to what was happening to the others.

Who else was there besides the three of you?

John McCoy, Rex, and myself, from Corpus Christi, and Douglas Sharon from Toronto, Canada. Last I heard he was with a museum in California—into archaeology. The last time I saw him was in 1957 in Peru.

What happened then?

After it landed, Douglas wanted us to go up to it He said ‘they’ wanted us to go over there to the landed object. We had a clear-cut agreement we had made on the way down to Brownsville, because I had a strong impression that if we would go down to the salt flats we would encounter a UFO and it might land. The agreement was that if we saw an object land, unless we saw a human-looking person without obvious protective clothing, standing outside it, we would not approach the object too closely. I think it was purely premonition on my part, although I didn’t interpret it that way at that time, I interpreted it as a telepathic message that a landing could occur. But Doug told us we were supposed to go up to the landed object. “They want us to come there!” he kept insisting, and he started to go, but John and I grabbed him. I said, “Doug, you’re not going, it could be dangerous.” I felt that object might be somehow dangerous with radiation and worried about what kind of being or thing could come out of that seemingly alien vehicle, sitting there--either just above the ground or right on the ground. As we held onto Doug, finally---there was no warning—the thing took off in a fraction of a second. It went from ground level into the stratosphere and left a glowing column of ions all the way up, in one second or probably less! That’s how fast this thing left, yet there was never any blast of air that hit us; we never heard any sound or shock wave. It was 175 feet from us and it was gone in a virtual instant!

Then Doug said “You made them leave, they’re upset with us because we didn’t go up there to the craft.” John said something to the effect of, “Maybe we can send them a telepathic message and get them back here.” I don’t know where John got an idea that sounds kind of kooky, but he suggested the four of us join hands in a circle and visualize a ‘white light’ swirling around us clockwise--as seen from above, with that light visualized as expanding out throughout the universe telling whoever had been there a few minutes before, (possibly waiting for us to approach) that, “We’re sorry, please come back.”

So we were standing there in the circle concentrating on this light spinning around, spreading out into the universe, and the thing came back! It came out of the south-south/east and approached us. I had become so excited before this happened, I had gotten a tension neck-ache, but when this thing got within eighty feet of us my neck-ache was gone! I wouldn’t call it ‘a healing’ because as soon as the thing was eighty feet on the other side, the neck-ache came back. We had begun to hear that two component sound which I described, when simultaneously we were paralyzed while just standing there. We could breathe (an autonomic function), but we seemed incapable of voluntary motions!

Well the object went on over us horizontally, moving into the north-north/west and then it climbed up into the sky and was gone. The neck-ache had gotten really bad, so I had to lie down in the back seat of the car because of the pain. So, John, Doug, and Rex were sitting in the front seat of the car.

All of a sudden this thing came back on almost the same course it had taken before, but that time it passed right over the car we were in. We were also paralyzed at that time—even though we were in a metal car. The object went on back up into the sky and was gone. We never had any other encounters with it at all that night that we were aware of. [END of excerpt]

6 feet above their heads! Woooooow :-O

Did any of the witness show any signs of 'sunburns' after that?
 
Hey Randall, this is just a guess but I think Ray is supposed to be doing some kiind of analysis of photos in which there is some kind of visible evidence of some plasma-using propulsion effect. I think it is to do with preparing the space (air) in front of the craft maybe to reduce drag, or create some kind of field or attraction (total guesses) - anyway the point is, if the photos do show any such thing to such a degree that someone can make good guesses or decent measurements, formulate a theory etc, well that in my book would be a good deal more of an achievement in Ufology than any other of the usual 'top ufologists' roll-call. I mean there may be guys investigating good cases but to be possibly discovering novel physics and the actual propulsion sciences, is way ahead of the rest in my book.

Your opinion is fair and in the spirit of good research, and I'm sure Paul R. Hill would have agreed. But I think we're looking at two different measuring sticks for how importance is gauged. Like @marduk says, "it's a subjective label". If we return to the metaphor of the ufology community as a family, dysfunctional as it may be, IMO it is the experiencers who are the closest family members, and by extension the most important ( to me personally ). Or if that metaphor doesn't work for you, perhaps think of experiencers as patients with some sort of condition that is not fully understood. Those who have never been exposed to the experience might see it as a disease to be cured. Others might see it as some abnormality that warrants therapy. Still others might view the bits and pieces of evidence as the most important, all the while forgetting that it is the patient who is most important.
 
But isn't Ray also a 1st-hand witness of several close encounters? That would make him a more important investigator than those for who the hunt of UFOs is merely an intellectual pastime ...

Ray claims to have had firsthand personal experiences that have left him with little, or possibly no doubt, that alien visitation is a reality, and yes, by that measure, assuming his accounts are true, that makes Ray "one of the family" so to speak, and therefore more subjectively important ( to me personally ) as a member of the ufology community. But at the same time, because of the nature of the UFO experience, I'm not prepared to say that any one experiencer ( including Ray ) is more important than another.

I might be prepared to accept that Ray's work is more or less important in ufology than some other people's work, but I don't have sufficient evidence to make that call. Maybe someday we'll all get a good look at it, and as always, I applaud @Christopher O'Brien's continued efforts to try to bring that to us. At the same time though, I wonder if maybe Chris doesn't feel a bit let down. I seem to recall him saying something about Ray saying that all this evidence was going to be put into his hands someday, and now Ray's got someone else in there doing a documentary.
 
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As out of print copies are a bit pricey, someone should talk to Ray about publishing a Kindle version of his Socorro book. That is, unless a digital version isn't already available to the elite UFO cabal.

If someone obtains Ray's permission for a searchable PDF version of his Socorro book to be uploaded to a free file storage website so that it is freely available to everyone, I can do that today.

I don't think I have Ray's current email address, otherwise I'd fire off a quick email to him myself. If someone else emails him and mentions me, could they please include my standard brief introduction of myself:
I am a barrister in England with an interest in various issues relating to "UFOs". I've previously helped make freely available online in a searchable format UFO documents from the FBI, from Canada (with the permission of the Canadian government) and Australia (with the permission of the Australian government) and New Zealand, plus helped make freely available in a searchable PDF format various out-of-print UFO publications (such as the newsletters of ufo skeptic Phil Klass, after getting relevant permissions). Here are a few links to samples of my previous items online:
FBI: “discs recovered”, Air Force “greatly concerned”, “at a complete loss” + more memos, page 1
Massive UFO disclosure in USA : A challenge for ATS, page 1
Canadian disclosure: “UFO Found” and other documents/photos, page 1
 
In response to kanakaris' question here's my small attempt, but I've seen nothing myself.
stanford-reproduction.jpg

I just recently re-listened to the 2012 Lambright/Stanford Paracast episode that covers the book X-Descending. Again in this episode there is discussion regarding Stanford's reluctance to release images for reasons of civil defence, to not give hoaxers any ideas and because it's not the scientific thing to do. Yet, we have these incredibly detailed descriptions in the episode, & in the O'Brien interview material posted above, and then there are Lambright's reproductions of Stanford's 'vehicles.' I don't get it. If they're to stay secret why make reproductions, or even describe the supposed inferences and confirmations around propulsion systems that he so often declares? Doesn't that kind of wipe out all the reasons for not releasing actual images?

But there is a history here, and it is a long one. For the 2012 episode RPJ posted a great PDF of an Omni magazine excerpt, one of the Anti-matter segments of course (always my favourite section) that featured a small segment about Ray Stanford:

http://www.astralgia.com/pdf/ufoart.pdf

It's an interesting read as it positions Stanford as more of a footnote in the field, and highlights his focus on hard data collection, his claims of having spectacular footage of dyanic anomalous aerial objects doing incredible things, but he hadn't released any of it and then faded from the scene.

Now if it wasn't for the fact that some people have actually seen some of these images I would tend to see Mr. Stanford as a cousin of Adamski. At least that's the imprint that's around, that and really cool jumpsuits from Project Starlight International. Let's face it; they look slick. Their intentions and execution were head and shoulders above Greer and his flashlights in the field to make contact. Still, there remain these familiar parallels.

f167aef6fdb3ca94f6d2119ff8edd008.jpg


There are his books and some would have to have that same level of scrutinized detail that he brings to the stories of UFO's flying over his head, his conclusions about their propulsion systems, his paleontology etc.. But I can not help but leave him in the Ted Philips' camp and can even understand Muadib's comparison with Derrel Simms, as what we have are wild stories, suspect claims & confirmations with not a lot of real proof. Ray's descriptions are simply jaw dropping. And if you troll through the Paracast forum you will find more of the same - especially some fascinating mothership discussion with giant bio-domes. It's worth the search.
 
Hogwash. He has nothing at all. What utter tripe. Why all the belabored, tortuous, labyrinthine posts parsing posters' "opinions" and "feelings" and "suppositions" about what any reasonable person would conclude: yes, right, hogwash.
 
It would be intresting to see Ray's film or photographs but in the end its up to him to decide when to release them. Furthermore, why the need for the pressure my goodness no one has the answers so far just theories hatch upon orginial researchers of the 1950s. Take your time Ray and what ever it is. The UFO subject will out live all of us.
 
for some, hogwash = entertainment, and for others it's labyrinthine. yes, i like that.
parsing is how to get through the labyrinth. not that there's ever anywhere to get to. besides, duality is boring.

i remember 1979 grade 8 parsing endless sentences put on the board by mr. Spizzeri as a class punishment. i would parse with one side of my brain and think about ray Bradbury and rod Serling stories with the other.
 
I'd like to tackle some of the comments Mr. Stanford made previously:

Gene Steinberg said:
Below is an Associated Press article out of Fort Worth, Texas, providing important details on the B 52's February 28, 1968 disappearance, to which I have added my drawing of the huge UFO that I believe was involved, and illustrating two of the trails of single-engine jet aircraft that made repeated reconaissance runs on the several-miles-across object which our whole Snelling & Snelling personnel placement firm's crew watched for multiple minutes, apparently hovering right where the B 52 suddenly vanished from both radar and communication several hours earlier, with no warning or distress signals ever received...

...THE CREW HAS NEVER BEEN HEARD FROM. THEIR AIRCRAFT HAS NEVER BEEN FOUND. The big, eight-engine bomber had over six hours of fuel still aboard when it vanished. Neither oil slick, nor associated aircraft debris has ever been found...

...Hopefully, one of you reading this will get into this case with FOIA requests (but I'd anticipate much government attempted obfuscation along the way) and see what we can learn about the actual disappearance of the B 52, and what survivors of the men on the aircraft were told about their relatives who disappeared in the disaster, etc.


When I heard the interview the first thing I wanted to know was whether a B-52 was lost during this time frame. I did some digging and yes, a B-52 was lost off Matagorda Island on February 29th, 1968 (29th, not 28th, but that's a minor discrepancy).

The plane's registration was 57-0173 and flew out of the 7th bomber wing of Carswell AFB, Texas. It was lost while doing practice bombing runs on the target range at Matagorda Island.

The details seem to be contrary to what Mr. Stanford asserts. They claim the plane was 100 miles away when it lost contact and that there was wreckage retrieved afterwards by fishing boats and beachcombers, including the pilot's flight jacket. That Padre Island AP report may actually be accurate. They also indicate that that plane had known issues and probably crashed due to an electrical mishap. So, jury seems to be out on whether it was the mothership or if they just hit a pelican.

ASN Aircraft accident 29-FEB-1968 Boeing B-52F-7-BW Stratofortress 57-0173
B-52_Stratofortress

That being said, it was difficult to find any records of this accident. I had to do some digging because it's not included in most lists of downed B-52's which is pretty strange in itself. Those sites I list are pretty much the only mention of it. I'd be inclined to believe something is up with that.

The second site I list gives testimony from people who knew the crew or were otherwise involved including the pilot's son. There are some solid leads there. Hell, Steve Salavarria (the son) is on Linkedin, send him a link to this conversation and see what he thinks! I'd also be very interested to know if anyone can dredge up an FOIA on this.

Other than that, I have no idea about Mr. Stanford. I would love to know if he has any tips or tricks for spotting craft. That telescope/laser combo he's playing with in his photos looks awesome and I'd love to know it's specs and how he used it. He doesn't have to share his evidence, but if he could nudge some of us younger guys in the right direction to produce some of our own it would be very valuable.

Interesting interview nonetheless. Thanks for it!
 
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Hogwash. He has nothing at all. What utter tripe. Why all the belabored, tortuous, labyrinthine posts parsing posters' "opinions" and "feelings" and "suppositions" about what any reasonable person would conclude: yes, right, hogwash.

Okay--sooner or later someone here will address your drumbeat. Placing the Stanford issue momentarily aside, why do you think thousands of sane and credible people have reported encountering undeniably incredible things that fall outside the range of known natural or man made phenomena ? Any sincere answer will do.
 
Well the Bennewitz photos are a curiosity as they are at the centre of a major UFO conspiratorial history that included US officials driving one contactee into total mental disarray. As for the images, well they speak for themselves don't they:
P.BennewitzPhoto.jpg
UFOs2.png
I think that there's a good argument for seeing some light streaks, and then later the moon breaking through clouds which is later over-processed to create what looks like a ring of light around an object. They're certainly not "clear" images at all. Given that Bennewitz had such an exceptional conglomeration of different recording cameras, still and film, you'd think there'd be better things to look at. But still, these images stand at the centre of a dominant UFO lore recipe of experimental craft, clandestine military operations, speculative citizens, disinformation agents and betrayal. The images do not stand as confirmation of anything in particular at all, but as a placeholder for conspiratorial military action.

Once again we have intense and incredible witness testimony and very little backup. As always the story overwhelms the facts.
 
I was actually just trying to figure out how much thrust that much plasma would induce in the Bennewitz photos when a thought occurred to me that makes me think that these things aren't using plasma propulsion at all, or the plasma is a side effect (perhaps even waste energy) of the propulsion system, not the propulsion system itself.

Consider the following:

These craft are seen in space and under the water, and seem to perform equally well in either medium. Additionally, salt or fresh water does not seem to affect them, neither does wind, rain, or atmospheric density changes due to weather (precipitation, lightning, etc).

Plasma thrust is a kind of electrical propulsion system that generates thrust from plasma by accelerating the plasma ions. In other words, it uses electricity to push on gas that's heated to a plasma state:
05_0032_5807_modulimg_visuel_fr.jpg

Plasma propulsion engine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In space there's no air to superheat to plasma to push on. There's also little mention in the literature of exhaust vents that would emit their own gas to heat to a plasma state.

Water would be pretty hard to create a plasma out of. I think you'd have to heat it to steam, and then break down the water vapour, then superheat that. The laws of thermodynamics being what they are this would be both extremely energy intensive because water doesn't like to absorb or release heat quickly, plus you'd leave an explosive wake in the water as the craft moved through it -- first you'd have the steam/hydrogen/oxygen plasma want to explode outward, then the water would rush inward to fill the vacuum quickly. These effects are not reported. One would also think salt water would also respond differently to an electrical propulsion system because of it's profoundly different conductivity. This is also not reported.

I think if anything we're looking at waste heat/light generated by the propulsion system, not the propulsion system itself. Very much like the car engine gets warm and glows in infrared, but this is all wasted energy by the internal combustion process.
 
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