Ray Stanford has a photo of the Socorro craft & Martin Willis has seen it and is impressed but...

[Ron Away]

Honey pot.I am wary of Mr Stanford's smoking gun because of many of his dubious claims made in the past.However I give Chris O'Brien the benefit of the doubt because I've never doubted his honesty or integrity.I'm not alone in this which is why this subject frustrates so much.Away from this and Roswell I'm interested to know what you think is behind the ufo phenomenon.You seem very knowledgeable so your opinion genuinely interests me.

 

[Honey-Pot]

I'm interested to know what you think is behind the ufo phenomenon.You seem very knowledgeable so your opinion genuinely interests me.

There are hundreds of reasons and causes for the UFO phenomenon that go back to prehistory, so this is nothing new except for our modern [flying and image technologies, mythologies, and mass media] interpretations of what UFO's are.

I firmly stand by Vallee's idea that important sightings that can't easily be eliminated by common causes such as mental/physical health issues, drugs, hoax magic, disinformation, MIC top secret drones or holographic or laser induced images or other secret "wave technology" or natural astronomical or atmospheric phenomenon or natural "wave energy" bursts [magnetic or earth caused or astronomical]... then, those witnesses must be studied, tested, interviewed perhaps for years to have a chance at knowing what a specific sighting means. Until we know much more about the Human mind and study the witnesses, then this phenomenon will remain a complete unsolved mystery. MUFON is not set-up to do this. No UFO organization has ever done this or is presently capable of doing this. This will take funding in the millions or billions of dollars with scientists that study the Human mind from a wide variety of disciplines with decades of research into each field of study.

I know project FREE claims to be a start at getting at some of these issues, but FREE seems founded by a lot of witnesses and believers with perhaps some built-in biases. Unless they are focused on studying the witnesses as their primary mission, then I don't think they can possibly learn new information or solve anything but promote more of the same beliefs. Also, they don't have the funding to accomplish much acting as volunteers doing mostly self-funding. This needs the support of at least one multi-billionaire committed to a lifetime of research and funding in the hundreds of millions or billions of dollars. This is possible to recruit such a billionaire, but Ufology is such a joke to believe any Ufologist or UFO organization will convince anyone to do it. For example, MUFON failed with Bigelow.

Hopefully, Vallee will write another book about his witness studies before he dies. IMO, Vallee may be stuck and limited in current multi-dimensional or information theories that still overlook what is actually happening inside the Human mind, because he was limited by his interests and studies in computing and our current limited understanding of multi-dimensional mathematical theories that are totally philosophy based and unproven.

 

[Ron Away]

Very interesting.Thanks for your reply.

 

[William Strathmann]

Ray's psychic work from the 1960s and early '70s.

I'm just curious. Do you think Chris, that you could call Ray and ask him to comment on that period of his life, and where he is today regarding psychic work, and then play his statement during an After The Paracast episode? It would save the trouble of a full two hour show, and, of course, on ATP he can say pretty much anything he wishes.

 

[Jeff Davis]

There are hundreds of reasons and causes for the UFO phenomenon that go back to prehistory, so this is nothing new except for our modern [flying and image technologies, mythologies, and mass media] interpretations of what UFO's are.

I firmly stand by Vallee's idea that important sightings that can't easily be eliminated by common causes such as mental/physical health issues, drugs, hoax magic, disinformation, MIC top secret drones or holographic or laser induced images or other secret "wave technology" or natural astronomical or atmospheric phenomenon or natural "wave energy" bursts [magnetic or earth caused or astronomical]... then, those witnesses must be studied, tested, interviewed perhaps for years to have a chance at knowing what a specific sighting means. Until we know much more about the Human mind and study the witnesses, then this phenomenon will remain a complete unsolved mystery. MUFON is not set-up to do this. No UFO organization has ever done this or is presently capable of doing this. This will take funding in the millions or billions of dollars with scientists that study the Human mind from a wide variety of disciplines with decades of research into each field of study.

I know project FREE claims to be a start at getting at some of these issues, but FREE seems founded by a lot of witnesses and believers with perhaps some built-in biases. Unless they are focused on studying the witnesses as their primary mission, then I don't think they can possibly learn new information or solve anything but promote more of the same beliefs. Also, they don't have the funding to accomplish much acting as volunteers doing mostly self-funding. This needs the support of at least one multi-billionaire committed to a lifetime of research and funding in the hundreds of millions or billions of dollars. This is possible to recruit such a billionaire, but Ufology is such a joke to believe any Ufologist or UFO organization will convince anyone to do it. For example, MUFON failed with Bigelow.

Hopefully, Vallee will write another book about his witness studies before he dies. IMO, Vallee may be stuck and limited in current multi-dimensional or information theories that still overlook what is actually happening inside the Human mind, because he was limited by his interests and studies in computing and our current limited understanding of multi-dimensional mathematical theories that are totally philosophy based and unproven.

When considered from the most purely objective and influence free stance, for purposes of questioning what the UFO phenomena represents, one is left with only that which is purely subjective in nature. Since the act of a subjective observational experience cannot be defined objectively in and of itself, it is imperative to focus on that which can be determined via the study of rendered experience. This is the study of consciousness.

UFOs, like nearly all matters Fortean, represent informationally relevant subjective intersections with what we loosely call reality. Reality is both random and routine cognitively decoded information that renders what we all call day to day experience. Since we cannot run down to the nearest drugstore and purchase a UFO, a Bigfoot, or any one of a thousand different Fortean cataloged parts, we know that we have to depend upon the random decoding of rendered experiences in order to study this aforementioned intersection. Again, this is the study of consciousness.

I have a lot of fun with the many prospective speculations for what UFOs might be, but I am bound to the mirror in my head with respect to any and all determinations that I may make. However, the one most repeated speculatively arrived at determination that I am continually confronted with is the notion that what we the subjective observers define as time and space, may in fact be tiny portions of a far more so vast environment that we in and of our nature have yet no access whatsoever to.

With respect to UFOs, I don't think any specific undertaking will come close to revealing all matters Fortean alike, as much as I do a working understanding of what is consciousness/reality.

 

[Christopher O'Brien]

Chris, seriously take this under advisement: Ray has been saying for years "on air" all the evidence he possesses. There is literally nothing new Ray can possibly say that he has proof of on the public record.

Your assumption is absolutely not true! How pompous of you to assume you know the width & breadth of his work. There are many aspects that I have been sworn to secrecy and have never seen even the slightest mention. STOP thinking you know everything about this man's work, agenda and integrity, please.

The problem is Stanford withholds all the evidence from the public seeing any of the evidence.

He doesn't care what you or I or the public thinks about his work.

The Roswell Slides proves that Open Source sharing of information can rapidly reveal "the truth" about the evidence.

You are putting Ray's decades of work in the same sentence as the Roswell Slide? You really don't have a clue who Ray is and what his work is about.

Just to be clear with everyone on this thread: So, Chris O'Brien you're not suggesting there has been an active campaign to discredit Ray Stanford on this thread too? Do you think Paracast members posting here are involved in an organized "smear campaign" consciously or unconsciously to discredit Ray Stanford here too? If yes, then why do you think that? Should these people be banned?

No, I am not saying that. I am saying that all the bitching, moaning, posturing, whining, pontificating and frustration will not help the "Ray" situation in any way, shape or form. He doesn't care what you or I think about his work. The more people bitch and moan, the less likely it will be that Ray will release his data anytime soon. Leave me alone about Ray already. I'm sick and tired of all the posturing, bitching, moaning and sanctimonious complaining. All I can do is urge him to let me videotape his presentations; release his original primary analog data, i,e., films, photos, recordings and other scientific data. You are not making my task any easier, so please put a sock in it already, ok my anonymous pal?

 

[Christopher O'Brien]

I'm just curious. Do you think Chris, that you could call Ray and ask him to comment on that period of his life, and where he is today regarding psychic work, and then play his statement during an After The Paracast episode? It would save the trouble of a full two hour show, and, of course, on ATP he can say pretty much anything he wishes.

No, I will not. Get a used copy of Ray's Fatima Prophesy. Pay special attention to where he predicts the assassination of Pope JPII —to the day—seven years ahead of time. He only got one thing wrong, JPII survived. Then, take note of what he predicts will be contained in the Third Secret prophesy of Fatima vs what was finally revealed in 1998. Also, Read Jeffrey Mishlove's account in Roots of Consciousness of when Ray and his wife "teleported" in his car on the way to see Geller. The amazing details of the entire accident were documented in the court case held about the accident that exonerated Ray.

FWIW: Ray has sort of agreed to do another series of recording sessions to fully capture his so-called "psychic abilities" life story. He wants to complete his UFO work first. BION (I don't care) He is one of a handful of people that have provided me with unequivocal proof of their psychic abilities. Let's leave it at that...

 

[Burnt State]

Hopefully, Vallee will write another book about his witness studies before he dies. IMO, Vallee may be stuck and limited in current multi-dimensional or information theories that still overlook what is actually happening inside the Human mind, because he was limited by his interests and studies in computing and our current limited understanding of multi-dimensional mathematical theories that are totally philosophy based and unproven.

Your overall summation is fairly thorough though I see you leave the traditional nuts and bolts concept outside the door. Perhaps that's for the best. From what I glean about consciousness studies, via other friendly posters, it seems to me that consciousness studies, information theories and the mathematical models that explore these intersections will yield something of an answer as to how it is the human organism interfaces with reality. My suspicion is that as we come to better understand both our sensory limitations and what exactly reality may contain and/or be comprised of all our enigmas will be explained as entirely natural phenomena operating outside our technological and sensory capacities.

I also suspect that making contact with whatever might possibly be the intelligence behind this phenomena would be like the ant trying to contact us. Finding a common language or mode of interface is probably a basic impossibility. At best we will come to know just how limited a life form we are which would be a good kick in the ass of our collectively overbearing species' ego.

As we continue to explore the nature and limitations of human consciousness we should begin to better understand the folly of our categorization of the UFO phenomena as ET visiting from other solar systems in its flying saucers. Not that they are always products of our imagination but that the limits of our imagination conceived it as such. As ufology rediscovers its roots it will return to a time of imaginative complexity. Where's Eric Wargo when you need him?

 

[Walter Bosley]

No, I will not. Get a used copy of Ray's Fatima Prophesy. Pay special attention to where he predicts the assassination of Pope JPII —to the day—seven years ahead of time. He only got one thing wrong, JPII survived. Then, take note of what he predicts will be contained in the Third Secret prophesy of Fatima vs what was finally revealed in 1998.]

I remember this book, but never read it. Just bought a copy.

 

[William Strathmann]

No, I will not. Get a used copy of Ray's Fatima Prophesy. Pay special attention to where he predicts the assassination of Pope JPII —to the day—seven years ahead of time. He only got one thing wrong, JPII survived. Then, take note of what he predicts will be contained in the Third Secret prophesy of Fatima vs what was finally revealed in 1998. Also, Read Jeffrey Mishlove's account in Roots of Consciousness of when Ray and his wife "teleported" in his car on the way to see Geller. The amazing details of the entire accident were documented in the court case held about the accident that exonerated Ray.

FWIW: Ray has sort of agreed to do another series of recording sessions to fully capture his so-called "psychic abilities" life story. He wants to complete his UFO work first. BION (I don't care) He is one of a handful of people that have provided me with unequivocal proof of their psychic abilities. Let's leave it at that...

Fair enough.

My interest is more focused on how Stanford got involved in this subject, what he thinks is the origin of the phenomenon, and if he is still involved today.

The following link is to a PDF, "The Problem of Seth's Origin" by psychologist Professor Paul Cunningham. This is the case of medium Jane Roberts who channeled volumes of "Seth" material, of which the original verbatum transcripts are now at Yale University. After considering fraud/hoax, Cunningham looks into a number of possible explanations for the phenomenon, all of which are interesting, IMHO.

http://www.rivier.edu/faculty/pcunningham/Research/Problem_of_Seths_Origin.pdf

Dr. Cunningham replied to an email I sent and he said he'd also read the disturbing book, The Siren Call of Hungry Ghosts, by Joe Fisher.

Fisher chronicled his experience of meeting with channelers. The primary medium in Joe's saga was a woman from whom would speak masculine personalities who claimed to be discarnate persons between reincarnations. One of the personalities claimed to be a WWII British bomber crewmember, who said (if memory serves) that he was killed during the war, and he gave details about his service that Fisher eventually checked during a trip to the UK. Some info about the unit was spot on and highly unlikely to have been known by anyone not associated with the unit. But the name of the "personality" who gave the info was not found in any records, nor was he known by any of the surviving members of the unit, even though some of them were quite impressed by the information. Fisher checked out three other personalities that this woman channeled, who also gave detailed information, that was initially convincing, but likewise ultimately was unverifiable or false.

Closer to the modern UFO world, Kevin Randle wrote a short book about participating in the hypnotic regression of a young woman who suspected that she was an abductee, called, Conversations - A Study in Hypnosis & Past Life.

Randle likewise was impressed by masculine personalities speaking through a woman, which provided gruesome plausible information that led Randle to consider the possibility of reincarnation.

These people, both channelers and the regressed during hypnosis, were unaware of what happened during their sessions. They would come out of their trance and then need to listen to the tapes to find out what was said during the session. (In fact, Randle did not want to give the woman the records of the sessions, because they were so gruesome, but eventually he did.) From what little I've found so far, Stanford too, like the subjects in these books, would go into a hypnosis state and then speak. From what I've read, after the session Stanford would have to listen to the recordings to find out what was said, though I don't know that for sure. Maybe his experience was different. But if his experience was similar, then it sounds as though there is some correlation, whatever the origin of the powers speaking through Stanford claimed to be.

 

[Creepy Green Light]

I can easily see how easy it is for someone to be duped into being visited and/or abducted. I was one of them (at one, extremely small point in my life). Here's the set up;

I was about 19-20 yrs old. In the U.S. Navy stationed in Brunswick, Maine but living in West Bath, Maine. We had the coolest apartment that was down a long, windy road that parallelled a river. There were only two apt buildings. Each building had 4 units. Our driveway and parking lot were dirt. We had a semi-obscured view of the river. Our unit was an upstairs one. Then my room was the entire second floor which was a loft which had sky lights in it. We were tucked away nicely in the woods. I had been interested in UFO's since 1979. Now this took place at approximately 1991-1992. Here's what happened;

I was sleeping in my loft (one roommate downstairs in his room). I became aware somehow of my surroundings even though I was still asleep. I felt a strong sensation that a presence was standing right next to me. I then felt a sensation of something going into my right ear. At this point, I was terrified and thought for sure there was a visitor(s) in my room. My entire body was tingling/buzzing. My heart was beating 1000 mph (1609/kph). I couldn't open my eyes though. Once the feeling of someone being in the room with me was gone, I was still terrified. I didn't want to open my eyes because the thought was too terrifying - especially if something was still in the room with me. After a 1/2 hour or so of lying their terrified, I finally had the nerve to open my eyes. Once I did, I was relieved to not see anything in my room. But I was still terrified. So much so that I called a girl I went to school with growing up in New Jersey in the middle of the night. I just needed to hear a familiar voice and have someone calm me down. The next couple of days I was so traumatized (for lack of a better word), that I went so far as to contact John Mack's office in Massachusetts. I eventually wound up not following up with Mack's office but as time elapsed, I chaulked it up to sleep paralysis. Now as a 44 year old - I would definitely say it was sleep paralysis. But in the moment (and the next few days) - I was convinced I was visited.

So I can see how some people could just run with the notion of being abducted/visited even though the more likely explanation is sleep paralysis. I am not advocating that there are no such things as abductions, because I do believe it's possible (and probable). But I don't believe it happened to me that night in Maine.

 

[Ron Away]

I can easily see how easy it is for someone to be duped into being visited and/or abducted. I was one of them (at one, extremely small point in my life). Here's the set up;

I was about 19-20 yrs old. In the U.S. Navy stationed in Brunswick, Maine but living in West Bath, Maine. We had the coolest apartment that was down a long, windy road that parallelled a river. There were only two apt buildings. Each building had 4 units. Our driveway and parking lot were dirt. We had a semi-obscured view of the river. Our unit was an upstairs one. Then my room was the entire second floor which was a loft which had sky lights in it. We were tucked away nicely in the woods. I had been interested in UFO's since 1979. Now this took place at approximately 1991-1992. Here's what happened;

I was sleeping in my loft (one roommate downstairs in his room). I became aware somehow of my surroundings even though I was still asleep. I felt a strong sensation that a presence was standing right next to me. I then felt a sensation of something going into my right ear. At this point, I was terrified and thought for sure there was a visitor(s) in my room. My entire body was tingling/buzzing. My heart was beating 1000 mph (1609/kph). I couldn't open my eyes though. Once the feeling of someone being in the room with me was gone, I was still terrified. I didn't want to open my eyes because the thought was too terrifying - especially if something was still in the room with me. After a 1/2 hour or so of lying their terrified, I finally had the nerve to open my eyes. Once I did, I was relieved to not see anything in my room. But I was still terrified. So much so that I called a girl I went to school with growing up in New Jersey in the middle of the night. I just needed to hear a familiar voice and have someone calm me down. The next couple of days I was so traumatized (for lack of a better word), that I went so far as to contact John Mack's office in Massachusetts. I eventually wound up not following up with Mack's office but as time elapsed, I chaulked it up to sleep paralysis. Now as a 44 year old - I would definitely say it was sleep paralysis. But in the moment (and the next few days) - I was convinced I was visited.

So I can see how some people could just run with the notion of being abducted/visited even though the more likely explanation is sleep paralysis. I am not advocating that there are no such things as abductions, because I do believe it's possible (and probable). But I don't believe it happened to me that night in Maine.

My first sleep paralysis as an adult had a similar affect on me.I now recognise them for what they are.

 

[Jeff Davis]

There are hundreds of reasons and causes for the UFO phenomenon that go back to prehistory, so this is nothing new except for our modern [flying and image technologies, mythologies, and mass media] interpretations of what UFO's are.

I firmly stand by Vallee's idea that important sightings that can't easily be eliminated by common causes such as mental/physical health issues, drugs, hoax magic, disinformation, MIC top secret drones or holographic or laser induced images or other secret "wave technology" or natural astronomical or atmospheric phenomenon or natural "wave energy" bursts [magnetic or earth caused or astronomical]... then, those witnesses must be studied, tested, interviewed perhaps for years to have a chance at knowing what a specific sighting means. Until we know much more about the Human mind and study the witnesses, then this phenomenon will remain a complete unsolved mystery. MUFON is not set-up to do this. No UFO organization has ever done this or is presently capable of doing this. This will take funding in the millions or billions of dollars with scientists that study the Human mind from a wide variety of disciplines with decades of research into each field of study.

I know project FREE claims to be a start at getting at some of these issues, but FREE seems founded by a lot of witnesses and believers with perhaps some built-in biases. Unless they are focused on studying the witnesses as their primary mission, then I don't think they can possibly learn new information or solve anything but promote more of the same beliefs. Also, they don't have the funding to accomplish much acting as volunteers doing mostly self-funding. This needs the support of at least one multi-billionaire committed to a lifetime of research and funding in the hundreds of millions or billions of dollars. This is possible to recruit such a billionaire, but Ufology is such a joke to believe any Ufologist or UFO organization will convince anyone to do it. For example, MUFON failed with Bigelow.

Hopefully, Vallee will write another book about his witness studies before he dies. IMO, Vallee may be stuck and limited in current multi-dimensional or information theories that still overlook what is actually happening inside the Human mind, because he was limited by his interests and studies in computing and our current limited understanding of multi-dimensional mathematical theories that are totally philosophy based and unproven.

I have looked and can't seem to find anything. What is project FREE?

 

[kanakaris]

I have looked and can't seem to find anything. What is project FREE?

Rey Hernandez maybe ?

 

[Burnt State]

I have looked and can't seem to find anything. What is project FREE?

FREE is Rey Hernandez' organization I believe. They were on The Paracast - they are just another organization that sees the Abduction experience as religious, deeply personal and because of aliens. I would stay away from that space - very biased.

Project CORE was an interesting approach to looking at witnesses. Mostly an unbiased space and open to possibilities.
The UFO Trail: Project Core, the UFO Community and Professional Research

 

[Randall]

... The Roswell Slides proves that Open Source sharing of information can rapidly reveal "the truth" about the evidence. Furthermore, the Roswell Slides proves Ufology is an extremist religion of believer UFO gurus and "media hacks" that will continue to promote literally lies ...

Easy now. Calling ufology an "extremist religion" is misplaced and unfair to those of us in the field who do our best to take it seriously and objectively, and may even share some of the same concerns as you do. Our group ( an actual ufology group ) views ufology this way: See link: Ufology. Admittedly there are examples of problems within the field, but that doesn't justify painting the entire field and everyone in it with the same brush. I've been through this with the skeptics and in doing so pointed out literally hundreds of cases of fraud and misrepresentation in the medical field, yet we don't brand medicine an "extremist religion" because there are quacks in the field. So please be fair. Anything less is bigotry and will only serve to devalue any valid opinions you may have.

 

[Honey-Pot]

Easy now. Calling ufology an "extremist religion" is misplaced and unfair to those of us in the field who do our best to take it seriously and objectively, and may even share some of the same concerns as you do. Our group ( an actual ufology group ) views ufology this way: See link: Ufology. Admittedly there are examples of problems within the field, but that doesn't justify painting the entire field and everyone in it with the same brush. I've been through this with the skeptics and in doing so pointed out literally hundreds of cases of fraud and misrepresentation in the medical field, yet we don't brand medicine an "extremist religion" because there are quacks in the field. So please be fair. Anything less is bigotry and will only serve to devalue any valid opinions you may have.

Yes, I should be more precise in my meaning, though I was speaking from within the context of this thread's topic and within the context of the Roswell Slides as being the latest recent examples of problems within Ufology. I could use many more examples besides the Roswell Slides or this threads issues, but these are the most recent "prime examples" of issues within Ufology and present discussion. I'll correct as follows:

The Roswell Slides proves that Open Source sharing of information can rapidly reveal "the truth" about the evidence. Furthermore, the Roswell Slides proves that some published "experts" within Ufology act as if they're an extremist cult of believer UFO gurus and "media hacks" that will continue to promote literally lies about what the Roswell Slides proved... That is: for example, that there is an ongoing conspiracy to cover-up this was a real ET Alien. Whitley Strieber, Linda Moulton Howe, and the Mexico connection were promoting these ideas publicly "on air" after the Roswell Slides was proven a fraud. Whom do you want to believe?

Chris, you obviously have not come forward to say you have extensive darkroom experience enlarging black and white or color photos before digital photography existed. Ray Stanford always sent off his prized UFO films and photos to be processed independently, so he never had the darkroom experience to know the limitations of photographic enlargement by direct darkroom experience. Until Ray Stanford's >>>original<<< films and negatives of photos are examined independently by photographic experts >>>never<<< connected to UFO's or the paranormal -or- far far better, the original high resolution scans are released online unaltered and not enhanced, then Ray Stanford has no proof of anything! There are no smoking guns, because there is no honest and real public record to prove otherwise.

This thread proves beyond any doubt that you will not be taken seriously until the evidence is proven. Open Source "online" is the best way to go. I trust my own abilities to analyze original unaltered and not enhanced high resolution scans of the original negatives or original film frames over any Goddard scientist, or Adobe, or the Pentagon, etc. etc. The Roswell Slides proves what can and will likely happen if Ray Stanford does not do this soon!

 

[Honey-Pot]

Everyone should take note how Chris O'Brien answers a few questions I ask below. It involves two paragraphs to explain this fully and is easily found and marked by a 1) and a 2) below.

I am saying that all the bitching, moaning, posturing, whining, pontificating and frustration will not help the "Ray" situation in any way, shape or form. He doesn't care what you or I think about his work. The more people bitch and moan, the less likely it will be that Ray will release his data anytime soon.

I want to be clear. I'm not "bitching", "moaning", "posturing", "whining", or "pontificating" with "frustration".

But I strongly agree with you, from above, quoting you: "He [Ray Stanford] doesn't care what you or I think about his work."

Therefore, I do not believe or agree with your following contradicting suggestion, from above, that: "The more people bitch and moan, the less likely it will be that Ray will release his data anytime soon." Why? See above.

Your assumption is absolutely not true! How pompous of you to assume you know the width & breadth of his work. There are many aspects that I have been sworn to secrecy and have never seen even the slightest mention. STOP thinking you know everything about this man's work, agenda and integrity, please.

I've never claimed to "know the width & breadth of his work". Therefore, your insistence that I need to "STOP thinking you know everything about this man's work, agenda and integrity, please" is false and incorrect. Me being "pompous" is a wrongful mischaracterization.

Of course, Ray Stanford withholds the evidence and part of his explanations with the secret details from the public, but Ray has claimed publicly "on air" targeting thousands to millions of people for decades now that he possess the image evidence and Ufology's "Smoking Guns" for real ET Aliens, ET Motherships, ET UFO's, and propulsion and flight characteristics too!

I'd say that's exactly what I meant when I wrote: "Chris, seriously take this under advisement: Ray has been saying for years "on air" all the evidence he possesses. There is literally nothing new Ray can possibly say that he has proof of on the public record."

I'm sure Ray claims to have many more details about the proofs and evidence that is secret knowledge, but the main points he publicly makes about the "smoking guns" I mentioned above is certainly what most people at this thread and forum are interested in knowing and seeing the proofs for this evidence beyond decades of just Ray's lip-service and claims made "on air" specifically targeting and meant for directed public consumption that is also often promoting the selling of his Socorro book too. This will include the recent ongoing MUFON Socorro campaign too.

Stanford, seems to be a trickster, claims to have found the Holy Grail(s) of Ufology we have quested for. But we aren't worthy to drink from his cup and know the secret knowledge. Chris O'Brien claims he has!

1) Before anyone starts making claims on Ray Stanford's behalf, including Chris O'Brien, IMO, I hope for your own sake and reputation that you have personally seen the original negatives and original film frames enlarged at least 10x and 50x times on a light table aka a specialized magnification loop designed for this purpose [assuming you have excellent vision] -or- have seen enlarged and projected the original negatives and film frames on a large projection screen. Until you do that Chris O'Brien, imo, then you have seen no real proof of Ray Stanford's image evidence.

2) Chris O'Brien: have you seen the original negatives and film frames as described above? If not, then don't you think to gain some credibility that you seriously must do this before you claim Ray has "the evidence" that is bonifiable? If Ray Stanford has not or does not even allow you to do this, already, imo, then why should everyone here and elsewhere not consider that Ray Stanford and you to have no real evidence about the "smoking guns" Ray claims to possess? Otherwise, is this just a secret cult following with qualified UFO gurus and true believers that are entitled and worthy by invitation only to drink from Ray's UFO Holy Grail cups of knowledge? I would not suggest giving that impression after the Open Source revelations of the Roswell Slides. Also, there can be no real independent peer review with these conditions when conducted in Ray's home.

Seeing photo prints are unacceptable. Original film frames and negatives must be verified independently of finished prints and match any enlargements too. Digital image enhancements and alterations beyond simple analog magnification or enlargement of the original film or negative frames can be falsified or misleading. In fact, I consider it to be fraud, imo, when UFO "experts" rely on or make these kinds of claims of digital image enhancement without making available Open Source Verification of the Analog negatives or Analog film frames too. These "experts" should already clearly know and understand the potential fraud issues digital enhancement will create and has already created within Ufology. One recent example: Roswell Slides. In other words, don't you dare tell me or anyone else, imo, that Adobe, the Pentagon, or Goddard knows best... that's laughingstock joke material.

I'm not "dogging" you Chris. I'm just trying to get straight answers that are not repeatedly ignored. I won't ask again if you refuse to answer honestly now. This is my last attempt to deal with you directly, but I will quote this post when necessary too. Based on your dismissive tone to my previous posts here I don't expect you to answer beyond me being what you have already characterized, but you can do much better than that. Of course, I strongly disagree and dispute your characterizations, but I want "the record" to be clear you have this chance to answer "straight-up" the purpose of my questions, which is to know what you really have seen of the original analog film frames and original analog negatives, without being dismissive suggesting I'm just hounding you here. It takes a lot of my time to compose serious posts at this forum that have meaningful content. This post is my last attempt to hope you will respond appropriately, otherwise I'm not taking you seriously about Ray Stanford and what you think you know. You're not interested in sharing that information with this forum. Why do that to everyone here?

 

[Randall]

Yes, I should be more precise in my meaning ...

Thank you. Critical thinking requires precision and even the best of us can be guilty of letting our biases slip into the mix.

Until Ray Stanford's >>>original<<< films and negatives of photos are examined independently by photographic experts >>>never<<< connected to UFO's or the paranormal -or- far far better, the original high resolution scans are released online unaltered and not enhanced, then Ray Stanford has no proof of anything! There are no smoking guns, because there is no honest and real public record to prove otherwise.

I have always promoted the idea that ufology is too wide a field for the scientific method to tackle on its own, and therefore it cannot logically become a science unto itself. However that doesn't mean that science cannot be applied to the field by bona-fide scientists. So when real science is needed in ufology, ufologists should, whenever possible and practical, be working in concert with accredited scientists at arms length from the field, and also preferably at arms length from undue skeptical influence, because the bias works both ways. This is a bit of a tall order, but it is the right way to go.

In the meantime, I don't think important evidence should be withheld. The older it gets the farther away from its original source it becomes and the more likely it is to break down or go missing, not to mention that if it is actually something substantial, the world has a right to know. If scientists aren't willing to tackle the job, then someone else has to analyze it in order to advance our studies, even if it means allowing the public access to the evidence. There are a lot of smart people out there who can figure things out, and ultimately, it's the truth, not credentials that count, and it seems you're alluding to this possibility below:

This thread proves beyond any doubt that you will not be taken seriously until the evidence is proven. Open Source "online" is the best way to go. I trust my own abilities to analyze original unaltered and not enhanced high resolution scans of the original negatives or original film frames over any Goddard scientist, or Adobe, or the Pentagon, etc. etc. The Roswell Slides proves what can and will likely happen if Ray Stanford does not do this soon!

I'm willing to take Chris seriously, but I also agree that whatever Ray has isn't going to be sufficient to prove to everyone that alien visitation is real. Then again, not everyone needs Stanford, or scientists, or ufologists, or skeptics to prove it to them because they already know by virtue of their own fully conscious and unimpaired senses, combined with logic and reason, that alien visitation is real, and they have adapted their worldview accordingly and moved on. I still find myself getting dragged back into the debate from time to time, but ultimately, I see stories like Stanford's more as a historical and cultural facet of the field. Whatever his evidence is isn't likely to change my views any more than they are yours.

 

[kanakaris]

No, I will not. Get a used copy of Ray's Fatima Prophesy. Pay special attention to where he predicts the assassination of Pope JPII —to the day—seven years ahead of time. He only got one thing wrong, JPII survived. Then, take note of what he predicts will be contained in the Third Secret prophesy of Fatima vs what was finally revealed in 1998. Also, Read Jeffrey Mishlove's account in Roots of Consciousness of when Ray and his wife "teleported" in his car on the way to see Geller. The amazing details of the entire accident were documented in the court case held about the accident that exonerated Ray.

FWIW: Ray has sort of agreed to do another series of recording sessions to fully capture his so-called "psychic abilities" life story. He wants to complete his UFO work first. BION (I don't care) He is one of a handful of people that have provided me with unequivocal proof of their psychic abilities. Let's leave it at that...

Mishlove's account is very brief.