Potential Guest: Ray Stanford

[Schuyler]

However, regardless of how credible one may sound, if that person is one in the same with one that has claimed to channel his own superconciousness and/or built a time machine, how that person sounds is moot. That person is simply and literally unbelievable.

Bob,
Just listen to it, okay?

 

[TerraX]

There has been an active attempt to smear Ray on the 'net by several disinfo operatives. Sue Shar Pei is a pseudo-name for one of these dirtbags. I can assure you that when you hear Ray on the show w/ Gene and David, you'll realize that a rare jewel such as Stanford shakes up the PTB and it's obvious that his work will continue to shake things up in this crap-filled field. His incredible insight (as reflected in his work) will more than speak for itself.

I'm listening to your interview on the Paracast at this moment and you call yourself an investigative journalists and sociologist. The latter, sociology, is also a major factor in ufology. I hope you noticed. You've also had plenty of paranormal experiences yourself, and I hope you also realise that you're not the only one. In fact, often there's a pattern. Sociology.

Yoy defend Ray Stanford, and that's your prerogative but I hope you realise Ray makes a number of claims which seem somewhat fantastic (to put diplomaticly). Ray's scathing reports on other folks in ufology are also sure to cause friction. Combine that with heated discussions on a radio show and I think it's safe to assume Ray has somewhat of a temper. As a sociologist you should recognise the pittfalls of ufology, and why there's also so much infighting. The sad truth is, is that 'disinformation operatives' don't have to do much. Ego does most of the work.


P.S.
Gene, I made 40 this year and all that prostate talk on the show is somewhat depressing dude.:frown:

 

[DamnDirtyApe]

Yep that is who I meant... whoa had not heard this glasses story yet... hunh.

OK.. found that episode with the "glasses".. the link is:

Program Information - Radio Misterioso: Government Secrets and the Hollow Earth|A-Infos Radio Project

(part 1).. the good stuff starts at 27:25

Walter talks about he was told by his "mentor" that Carlsbad caverns has extra chambers below the main caverns and relics were found including ancient glasses with thin wires in the lenses and the glasses project images from the past onto the wall ..lol so take what you will from that. From there he goes on about how he believes that people/humanoids live under the Earth ala the Hollow Earth theories etc.

 

[bobheck]

Bob,
Just listen to it, okay?

I have listened to the first episode and I am 45 minutes into the second.

All I can say is I want that two hours of my life back.

Ray sounds like Bill Knell the second. Rapid fire fantastic stories filled with copious negligible details uttered as anectodal comments with nothing to back any of them up.

My belief is he is making up details as he goes along when asked questions about his encounters.

He claims to have been involved in 'channeling' that cured some guy of epilepsy and another woman from cancer and that also gives him foresight and warnings? What, are you kidding me? What was the lady's name that was cured of cancer? The man's name cured of epilepsy? Did I not hear the recording correctly? Aren't these claims made?

How can anyone overlook this crap and take this guy seriously?

Through the recordings though, we can ascertain that he was the Ray Stanford associated with the Association for the Understanding of Man that did all the 'channeling' stuff.

Nothing I have heard so far addressed his building of the "Hilarion Accelerator".

I just don't understand how anybody believes this guy. Fantastic story after fantastic story. No proof. I think Bill Knell may have learned his methods from Ray Stanford.

I am anxious to see if he will meet with David B. and show him any photos.

And, the treatment that O'Brien gives him is just bizarre to me. It is simliar to the Talbot/Robertt situation. Just strange -- it seems all objectivity is gone and there is an emotional element blinding rationalized thinking.

I'm just not buying any of this, at all.

Let's see what David B. finds out. But with all this channeling and curing and stuff, I still say the guy is a lug nut. It DOES NOT MATTER how he sounds. It is what he has claimed. He claims he has pictures, tape recordings, etc...

The way he thinks he knows more than Walter and his aggressive treatment of him is silly. Ray is a nut.

 

[Christopher O'Brien]

Agreed.
Ray is a mercurial dude with a hair trigger temper. I've pissed him off on a number of occasions when I dug too hard. I don't care—I will continue to ask tough questions. He will be the first to admit that he lives in a vacuum and needs to get out more. I respect him for his hard data analysis and the fact that he has been in this field for 55 years. He doesn't talk to me about channeling, healings, AUM; he denies being a "contactee," and frankly, I don't care about what other people think about him or what some here think about me. I know he's on to something and I don't really care what anybody thinks about that. If and when you see his work, you'll know perfectly what I am talking about. Biedny will get it when they meet and all the snitters here and elsewhere can start in on him. I don't worship the dude, or make apologies for him—I just admire his awesome knowledge, appreciate his observational acuity and learn from his insight into the science. I'm done talking about Ray. He can do a well enough job representing himself.

 

[Gareth]

My belief is he is making up details as he goes along when asked questions about his encounters.

Oh come oooon! No way dude.

He makes some out there claims, thats for sure, but he comes across (to me) as entirely credible in other areas.

Switch your intuition back on. No way is he making it up as he goes along. Id be willing to put money on it.

 

[bobheck]

Agreed.
He doesn't talk to me about channeling, healings, AUM; he denies being a "contactee," and frankly, I don't care about what other people think about him or what some here think about me.

Chris, with all due respect (which is a lot), just because he does not talk to you about those things does not mean you can simply dismiss that he says them does it? He did say those things on the recordings posted in this very forum. If you choose to ignore those things and just pick out the 'good' things you like in Ray, that is kind of dangerous in the eyes of objectivity and good journalism, is it not?

I truly hope we will get to see all of Ray's work, as you mentioned. But Ray simply can not be given a pass on all the other things he has claimed and been involved with, such has healing, channeling, time machines, etc... He must be taken to task on those items, or else the book on him and his credibility is incomplete. If he can explain all that, I would like to hear it.

 

[bobheck]

Oh come oooon! No way dude.

He makes some out there claims, thats for sure, but he comes across (to me) as entirely credible in other areas.

Switch your intuition back on. No way is he making it up as he goes along. Id be willing to put money on it.

Some of the details, yes sir. Like when asked how that man got is car off the rocks. That was on the spot. I would put money on that. I made my living interviewing people and trying to get the truth for several years. Four interviews a day. I know what I am talking about.

 

[Gareth]

I cant remember what part youre talking about.

How was it framed? Did he imply he was retelling something then obviously speculate?

Or was he giving his opinion of how something might have happened?

 

[urkotic]

How can anyone overlook this crap and take this guy seriously?

Devil's advocate, if the paleontology community ignored Stanford and didn't take him seriously, they would've apparently missed out on his fossil finds. Is it not possible to keep in mind all you cite and - if he'll make it available - neutrally assess his proclaimed UFO evidence?

Frankly the 'other stuff' you cite made me wonder about the validity of the fossils/tracks yet people who typically heap scorn on UFO claims appear to have proclaimed them genuine. This, rather than any hyperbole about Stanford's general excellence, leaves me thinking wait and see.

That said I think I understand where you are coming from and "Well let's see this evidence" (which should be assessed as critically as any) is about the only dissent I can muster.

 

[bobheck]

I cant remember what part youre talking about.

How was it framed? Did he imply he was retelling something then obviously speculate?

Or was he giving his opinion of how something might have happened?

He was speaking of an "abduction" where a man's car was dropped on some rocks, and the rocks had damaged the vehicle when it was dropped. Ray was asked "how did the man get his car off the rocks", he hesitated, said
"Oh, he backed it off", then went on to actually think it through aloud how that would have been probable.

Look, it seems that many on this forum want to sprout fairy wings and flutter around farting rainbows and believe that this guy is good and can heal the sick, build time machines, channel spirits or entities, and has encounter after encounter with UFOs and strangeness -- all without giving any concrete proof. Go ahead and believe him if you want. I choose to remain on terra firma.

 

[David Biedny]

You know what's funny about all this?

If I were to reveal all of the weirdness that I've observed - and participated in - during my life, I wonder how many of you would write me off in a heartbeat. It's why I always hesitate to talk about my own paranormal experiences. Seriously. If you think the apparition that I talked about with my friend Bill, or the time distortion episode that Jaime came on to talk about, or my UFO encounters are all weird stuff, I'll tell you, it's the other stuff that would make your eyes fall out of your heads.

Which is why I tend to keep it all to myself. I've told my girlfriend about some of these things, and sometimes I wonder if she thinks I'm sane.

Sometimes I wonder myself. And I often have a hard time dealing with all of it, which partially contributes to my own passion about people who just make shit up. And I think I have a decent BS meter, but it's sometimes a little flawed. Vaeni managed to get through it for a while, but once I figured out what he was up to, I cut him off from my life. Yeah, I have refrained from commenting about him publicly, but he apparently now claims I "screwed" him and Jeff. More of his outright lies. But yeah, I thought highly of him at one point - I even pulled in a personal favor with the owner of ATS, to write off a $600 debt that Vaeni owed them, 'cause he was hurting after his failed Jersey City event last year (that's how I "screw" my friends, evil of me, eh?) - until I got smart. Happens to the best of us. Shit, I just paid attention to Vaeni, which is all the guy wants, attention, my bad. Shit, I'm broken, just like everyone else.

Anyway, I can't ever write an accurate autobiography, if I did, folks would accuse me of taking liberties with reality. And forget the paranormal stuff, I'm just talking about random odd shit.

I mean, who would believe it when I tell a story about being 9 years old, getting a call from my best buddy, Steve, who tells me to run over to his house because the family down the block from him "is throwing out money".

And they were. Some of those rare US coins financed my obsession with guitar pedals years later. I still have some of the loot. It's nuts. And it happened, it doesn't matter if anyone believes me, I was there, Steve & I were dumping out piles of Morgan head silver dollars, 5 dollar gold pieces, rolls of $1 silver certificates - you name it - onto the floor of his treehouse... crazy shit.

Yeah, I know, you might think I've gone off the deep end. See what I mean?

So we'll see about Stanford. I'll reserve my opinions about the man until I meet him and see what he's got. He claims he's holding hard evidence. We shall see.

dB

 

[Gareth]

Bob Im just not feeling it. I dont want to "sprout fairy wings and flutter around" but I feel like I have a decent BS detector too, and despite some of Rays bizarre claims I find him him somewhat credible when listening to him speak.

If I remember correctly he is even self-deprecating when he initially talks about his channelling stuff in the first Misterioso interview.

And that spat he had with Walter, I mentioned this on Gregs site and I still get this impression.... I think that while Ray did get super defensive and it didnt make him look good, at the heart of the issue was a misunderstanding as far as Ray thinking Walter was saying something he wasnt. Walter was just throwing another alternative out there, and I think Ray interpreted Walter as saying that he though all UFO activity is US military. That is of course the opposite of what Walter thinks. (to really hear some of Walters wacky stories check out his own interview in Gregs archive - its one of the weirder interviews Ive heard Greg do! I really wanted Walter to come on the Paracast with Greg and hopefully one day that will happen).

Getting back to Ray, I do think he makes some claims that might be hard to defend, but my gut feeling with Ray is he is a credible guy.

As an example of someone who gives me the exact polar opposite gut feeling, and I think is a complete and total bullshit artist.... Dan Burisch.

 

[Jumpy]

I’m loving the awesome contributions to this thread. Obviously everyone has his/her line in the sand about where true weirdness stops and horse#h*t begins. I think the more or less you will listen to what someone has to say on a given topic is directly proportional to how much credibility you give them. There is also the question about how heavily a persons’ past weighs in an assessment about the legitimacy of their work. Ray Stanford seems to be quite a unique case in that he has been involved in some pretty far out stuff (in my opinion), but then quite recently has come up with some hard-as-nails evidence of something of scientific importance. While these things may not be related, I can’t write this guy of as a flake especially with another decent investigator giving him full support. The significance of who Ray Stanford is and what he has done/said in the past becomes secondary if he comes up with results as he has done with his paleontological work. It is great to hear you will be going to pay Ray a visit Biedny, since you can A) properly evaluate the photographic evidence B) make people aware of it on the Paracast if it has any value. I mean, who doesn’t want to see a horizon optically collapse? Anyone? Bueller?... Bueller?... Bueller?...
<O</O<O</O

 

[DamnDirtyApe]

The whole Stanford/Walter thing I just saw as an example of a typical crotchety older man. I've seen plenty of them in my time and people tend to get even more dogmatic, eccentric, and hardened the older they get. At a certain point, older folks tend to not care about entertaining the conventions of polite society as much as younger people tend to do. It's a "This is what I know and if you don't like it you can kiss my ass" sort of attutude.

I know if I was chatting with someone and a 15 year old kid comes up and tells me something I know to be bullshit, I will call him on it. I think to Stanford, Walter was that 15 year old whippersnapper and the subtly of Walter's point was lost on Stanford. Remember when Buzz Aldrin knocked that guy out for pestering him about not walking on the moon? Same sorta thing I think.

I think it's entirely possible that Stanford could both be a great amateur fossil hunter AND be batshit crazy, or at the very least a bit delusional. The two are not mutually exclusive. Clouding the issue even further is that Stanford could have some fake/hoaxed evidence and some genuine evidence all mixed together. Sort of like the notion of an abductee who has an early real experince, but then feels compelled to elaborate and distort the story as time goes on becuase of the positive reinforcement they get by telling their story.

So personality quirks and past shady associations aside, the Stanford thing all rests on the evidence - either he will have it or he wont. Personally my bet is wont... but I guess we'll see..

 

[DamnDirtyApe]

If I were to reveal all of the weirdness that I've observed - and participated in - during my life, I wonder how many of you would write me off in a heartbeat.

dB

But see you aren't out evangelizing anything or asking people to believe you on faith. If you were pushing your own experiences as a reason for ME to believe in something then you'd be back to the same place that you are with any other person claiming to have the "answer" You are the first person to admit you don't know what it all means.

I have no problem with someone coming on the show and saying "I have no hard evidence to back this up.. but this is what happened to me..." What I don't accept is people using a personal anecdote or shoddy evidence to sell a product or an idea about what it all means. Simply asking to examine someone else's evidence does not invalidate your own experience even if you have no evidence yourself. That's like a scientist saying "Well you can't ask to review my evidence of cold fusion because you never created cold fusion yourself"

Once a person brings "hard evidence" into the scenario, of COURSE it's going to need to be examined and evaluated by others.. that's the whole point of recording evidence instead of simply enjoying the experience for its own merit. If you don't want people to question your evidence, don't gather any in the first place.

 

[bobheck]

As an example of someone who gives me the exact polar opposite gut feeling, and I think is a complete and total bullshit artist.... Dan Burisch.

(Bob clinks a green can with Gareth in agreement over Burisch)

 

[David Biedny]

As an example of someone who gives me the exact polar opposite gut feeling, and I think is a complete and total bullshit artist.... Dan Burisch.

Amen on that. Oy.

dB

 

[Double Nought Spy]

Has anyone seen and reported on Ray's Thousands of Photos? He makes repeated claims to have astounding photos; of that there is no question. Anyone know who has seen them? I want to see them! So far, all I can find to indicate that they exist is Ray's repeated claim. I want to like this guy, but I have to say it ain't lookin' good to me at the moment.

There is no need to "get in his face" about the photos in an interview or anywhere else. If a simple question like "Have you published any of these pictures, or do you have plans to do so in the near future?" is enough to piss him off, well, maybe that tells us all we are going to know.

 

[spacebrother]

You know what's funny about all this?

If I were to reveal all of the weirdness that I've observed - and participated in - during my life, I wonder how many of you would write me off in a heartbeat. It's why I always hesitate to talk about my own paranormal experiences. Seriously. If you think the apparition that I talked about with my friend Bill, or the time distortion episode that Jaime came on to talk about, or my UFO encounters are all weird stuff, I'll tell you, it's the other stuff that would make your eyes fall out of your heads.

Which is why I tend to keep it all to myself. I've told my girlfriend about some of these things, and sometimes I wonder if she thinks I'm sane.

David, I know EXACTLY what you're talking about, in a slightly different way. Also, there are other issues involved in expressing your opinion when you don't have an anonymous internet persona, and people that may be able to find out where you live or your phone number, etc. I've had problems with this in the past. I have never posted anonymously, although I don't think I'd be very much different in my opinions and statements if I did.