1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. SUPPORT THE SHOW AND ENJOY A PREMIUM PARACAST EXPERIENCE! Welcome to The Paracast+! For a low subscription fee, you will receive access to an ad-free version of The Paracast, the exclusive After The Paracast podcast, featuring color commentary, exclusive interviews, plus show transcripts, the new Paracast+ Video Channel, Classic Episodes and Special Features categories! We now offer lifetime memberships! You can subscribe via this direct link:
    https://www.theparacast.com/introducing-the-paracast/

    The Official Paracast Store is back! Check out our latest lineup of customized stuff at: The Official Paracast Store!

    Subscribe to The Paracast Newsletter!
    Dismiss Notice

November 26, 2017 — Susan Demeter-Sr. Clair with J. Randall Murphy

Discussion in 'Talk About the Show' started by Gene Steinberg, Nov 26, 2017.



  1. Gene Steinberg

    Gene Steinberg Forum Super Hero Staff Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2006
    Messages:
    12,267
    Likes Received:
    4,833
    Occupation:
    Forum Super Hero
    Location:
    Somewhere
    Home Page:
    Randall and I enjoyed our brief virtual visit with this amazingly knowledgeable woman. She is well tuned in to the UFO field, the good, bad and ugly.

    We had such a great time that we also invited her back for this weekend's episode of After The Paracast, the premium podcast offered exclusively to members of The Paracast+.

    For more information about our premium service, please check: Introducing The Paracast+ | The Paracast — The Gold Standard of Paranormal Radio
     
    Usual Suspect likes this.
  2. kanakaris

    kanakaris Paranormal Adept

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2012
    Messages:
    578
    Likes Received:
    363
    Great episode.Her second sighting in 2001 is exactly what i saw in Belgium , although it was in 1997.Diamond shaped , dark , with small lights and completely silent.
     
    blowfish and Usual Suspect like this.
  3. wwkirk

    wwkirk Paranormal Adept

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2009
    Messages:
    724
    Likes Received:
    431
    It was pleasant hearing Usual Suspect again. I believe you said something like "not necessarily a spacecraft." What did you mean by that?
     
    Usual Suspect likes this.
  4. Usual Suspect

    Usual Suspect USI Calgary

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2010
    Messages:
    8,211
    Likes Received:
    5,854
    Location:
    Calgary Canada
    Home Page:
    What I mean when I say that a UFO isn't necessarily a spacecraft is that although an alien spacecraft is usually the assumption of what is meant by the word UFO, it is possible that the craft in question might be from someplace on Earth or more exotically, from another universe, and that space travel isn't involved in them getting from their point of origin to here. The important point is that either way, if it's in the context of ufology we're still dealing with some sort of alien craft as the core subject matter. In other words we're dealing with craft that are from outside the boundaries and constructs of known civilization, but not necessarily from space.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2017
  5. Usual Suspect

    Usual Suspect USI Calgary

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2010
    Messages:
    8,211
    Likes Received:
    5,854
    Location:
    Calgary Canada
    Home Page:
    Agreed. It's great to hear the eye witness accounts of guests. She came across as enthusiastic and honest, which I found quite refreshing :cool: . Of peripheral interest is that my former life-partner Patricia had a bizarre experience not far from the Pickering plant as well. So there we go with the nuclear connection again.
     
    Ron Away, Linton and blowfish like this.
  6. Linton

    Linton Intellectually Omnivorous

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2010
    Messages:
    39
    Likes Received:
    55
    Good show. Enjoyed Susan’s energy and clear-minded thought processes. I liked that she isn’t entirely married to any particular concept as an explanation for the variety of experiences that she and others have had. I very much enjoyed the exchange between she and Randall regarding hypothesis and critical thinking. Where many sceptics (I love spelling it with a “c” because it drives the kool-aid drinkers of that community nuts) would argue against Randall’s critical thinking conclusions is that from their non-experiencer perspective, the simplest and most logical conclusion is that there are no crafts of any sort, nuts-and-bolts or otherwise. Such sceptics would also add that the experiencers have simply misunderstood what they have seen. A more analytical mind (because they like to feel superior) would have seen the phenomena for what it truly was and there by would have had no paranormal experience. Intellectual snootiness aside it is not an entirely incorrect approach.

    If a person has never had a strange experience there is no reason to believe that anything outside of what they’ve experienced exists. Where that thinking falls apart is that plenty of people haven’t seen the CN Tower (keeping the Canadian vibe going), but they don’t discount the reports of those who have or dismiss all video and photography of the magestic needle as hoaxes. Corraboration, isn’t an argument, because plenty of other, entirely rational people have had identical paranormal experiences, but full on nut-jobs can talk about the CN Tower and we’re all “ya that’s for sure true. I mean, a whole city wouldn’t lie about something like that.” (Ahem...Phoenix lights).
     
    Usual Suspect likes this.
  7. Angel of Ioren

    Angel of Ioren Friendly Skeptic Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2009
    Messages:
    4,161
    Likes Received:
    1,044
    Location:
    Montreal
    I think trying to irritate people by specifically changing the spelling of a word is a little childish and doesn't really move anything forward.

    With regards to the the CN Tower - it's a bit of a false dichotomy: it's a lot easier to believe that it exists because it's a building and that isn't extraordinary. Things like UFOs are a little harder to definitively prove since by definition they are unidentified and are not available for all to see on Front street.
     
    Usual Suspect likes this.
  8. Usual Suspect

    Usual Suspect USI Calgary

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2010
    Messages:
    8,211
    Likes Received:
    5,854
    Location:
    Calgary Canada
    Home Page:
    Thanks for the positive comments! Susan and I could have delved into the critical thinking aspect a whole lot more, but we ran out of time. These shows fly by when you're doing them. You make some valid points about the skeptics ( I got razzed by them for using the "k" so apparently it can go both ways :rolleyes:. ) The skeptics I was having a hard time dealing with were formerly associated with the James Randi Foundation, and I strongly suspect that their often toxic approach and the number of complaints about it ( including mine ) was what led the foundation to distance themselves from that group.

    When it came to critical thinking, I like that Susan acknowledged the importance, but at the same time found her a bit fuzzy around the edges on it. So my hope is that she came away from the interview with a little more to think about there, and will evolve her thinking on it. Of particular importance is that she doesn't think there is a hierarchy of reasonableness, whereas I think that establishing a hierarchy of reasonableness is pretty much the main point. Otherwise the idea that jets are really chasing psychic teddy bears that cloud the pilot's mind are as valid as the idea they're chasing an unknown craft.
     
  9. Angel of Ioren

    Angel of Ioren Friendly Skeptic Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2009
    Messages:
    4,161
    Likes Received:
    1,044
    Location:
    Montreal
    Great episode with a great guest.
     
  10. Linton

    Linton Intellectually Omnivorous

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2010
    Messages:
    39
    Likes Received:
    55
    Wow, don’t know you, and you’ve been kicking around on here for a while so I’ll assume that you are joking and not some super literal robot. In case you are a robot (awesome, by the way), keep in mind that “extraordinary” is a relative term. To tribes that still shoot arrows at passing planes the concept of the CN Tower would be quite extraordinary... and arguably even to contempory streamed folk it’s notable, hence the tourist industry built around it. There is the possibility (as those waiting for “disclosure” would posit) that to some, UFOs are not extraordinary at all, so just because you have a handle on the giant building phenomenon, it doesn’t make UFOs a dissimilar mystery to be believed or dibelieved. To dismiss peoples’ reports of either, without the benefit of personal experience and scrutiny, would be misguided. But, thanks, in a way, for making my point while completely missing it. Well done.
     
    Usual Suspect likes this.
  11. Angel of Ioren

    Angel of Ioren Friendly Skeptic Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2009
    Messages:
    4,161
    Likes Received:
    1,044
    Location:
    Montreal
    Hi - nice to meet you!

    I just disagree with your analogy. Also not a robot - go listen to my podcast, I'm super entertaining on there, and you'll realize I'm human! You can also subscribe the The Paracast Plus, download the episode I was on, and hear me talk to Gene about stuff, including disclosure and Tome DeLonge.

    Anyway, I don't feel as though I missed your point, but you don't agree with what I was saying, and that's fine.
     
    Linton and Usual Suspect like this.
  12. Usual Suspect

    Usual Suspect USI Calgary

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2010
    Messages:
    8,211
    Likes Received:
    5,854
    Location:
    Calgary Canada
    Home Page:
    I'd say you both have equally valid points depending on the context of the situation. I certainly get both perspectives. It's not always easy to come up with a perfect example off the top of ones head that covers all contingencies. On the show I used the example of meteors and meteorites as a parallel to the ETH, and Susan countered that scientists can weigh and measure them, but the context I was referring to was the period when their origin was still unproven to the satisfaction of science, not whether or not their actual existence was in question. But then we hit a break and we lost the train of thought on that topic. The point being we both had perfectly valid points and they just needed to be hashed out a bit more to reach a common understanding.

    And BTW I haven't been able to actually confirm with 100% certainty that your human, but I think your podcast is fab :cool: .
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2017
  13. Angel of Ioren

    Angel of Ioren Friendly Skeptic Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2009
    Messages:
    4,161
    Likes Received:
    1,044
    Location:
    Montreal
    Thanks Randall. I’m listening to After the Paracast right now. It’s always fun to hear you on the show. We don’t always agree, but that’s part of the fun.
     
    Usual Suspect likes this.
  14. Usual Suspect

    Usual Suspect USI Calgary

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2010
    Messages:
    8,211
    Likes Received:
    5,854
    Location:
    Calgary Canada
    Home Page:
    Always willing to hash out where we disagree in a constructive way. It's how progress is made, so don't be afraid to say what's on your mind. It's what I live for ... lol.
     
    Angel of Ioren likes this.
  15. Thomas R Morrison

    Thomas R Morrison Paranormal Adept

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2014
    Messages:
    264
    Likes Received:
    502
    I’m deeply conflicted about this episode actually: on one hand, Susan is a compelling and engaging conversationalist, but on the other hand, I found the logical foundation for many of her positions to be fraught with errors, which I described in detail in this thread: Reframing the Debate: A Path Forward or Backward?

    Perhaps the most frustrating part of this interview was this: she’s had three quite close multiple-witness sightings of solid structured craft, but somehow she’s changed her mind about it, and now she questions if they were solid tangible craft after all. And her reasons for this change in perspective made no sense to me.

    And as I pointed out in the new thread about the “Reframing the Debate” perspective, I think that her assertion that the “physical craft interpretation” is merely a hypothesis that can’t be verified without studying one of these things in the lab, is not defensible – we’ve explained all kinds of atmospheric and celestial observations (black holes, for example) without studying one in the lab. And we have radar returns and physical trace evidence - both of which comprise valid scientific evidence (I daresay "proof") in favor of the solid physical craft interpretation.

    The truth is, it doesn’t matter how far away an object is – on the lab bench, or 5 billion light-years away. What matters is having the right technical apparatus to collect precision observational data about the object of study. Which is why projects like Chris’ portable ufo observatory are so crucial – that’s the only way to advance our understanding of this phenomenon (or phenomena, as the case may be). “New ideas” are fun and interesting to discuss, but they don’t resolve observational mysteries – only scientific data and analysis can do that. Which is one of the primary reasons that I object to the entire premise of “reframing the debate” – it’s not about asking the right and/or different questions; it’s about making precise and varied scientific observations of an event at the time it’s happening… and until we do that, our wheels will be spinning in the mud forever, no matter how many alternative ideas/explanations/hypotheses we come up with.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2017
    Ron Away and Usual Suspect like this.
  16. Usual Suspect

    Usual Suspect USI Calgary

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2010
    Messages:
    8,211
    Likes Received:
    5,854
    Location:
    Calgary Canada
    Home Page:
    Excellent post. Your insight and analytical approach has resulted in some of the most well stated posts on the forum. I definitely resonate with what you're saying here, but would also like to add that the study of scientifically valid material evidence is only one angle of approach, and that it requires that the critical thinking approach be paired with it in order to get meaningful interpretation of the results.

    The beauty of critical thinking is that in the absence of evidence sufficient to scientifically prove the material existence of UFOs, it still provides ( In my reasonably well informed opinion ) sufficient reason to believe that the objects in some UFO reports represent materially real alien craft rather than some sort of psychological manifestation.
     
  17. Thomas R Morrison

    Thomas R Morrison Paranormal Adept

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2014
    Messages:
    264
    Likes Received:
    502
    Thank you Randall. I think we're both advocating for the scientific method here, which is good. I find the increasingly popular view that we should instead seek answers in folklore, mythology, and parapsychology and/or parasociology, to be deeply troubling. I also felt that Susan's understanding of the scientific process and critical thinking left much to be desired. The limited physical evidence that we have (radar-visual cases, trace evidence, and consistent reports of the same anomalous events from multiple and independent eyewitnesses), plus a little applied analytical reasoning, clearly illustrates that some, if not most (and quite possibly all), of the reported near-object sightings involve a physical craft. I just focus on our need to collect more and better scientific data because that's not only how we'll move past this "maybe it's all in our heads" uncertainly that's been going around these days, but it would also likely give us critical clues about the composition and propulsion technology of these exotic aerial devices.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2017
    Usual Suspect likes this.
  18. Christopher O'Brien

    Christopher O'Brien Informed Anomalist Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2009
    Messages:
    2,846
    Likes Received:
    3,306
    Occupation:
    aspiring techno-shaman
    Location:
    Fort Verde Scout Post, AZ
    Home Page:
    I couldn't agree more! That's why I'm beating my head against a stone wall in an effort to get the triangulated San Luis Valley Camera & Monitoring array up and running once & for all!
     
  19. blowfish

    blowfish Whittingham

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2010
    Messages:
    2,654
    Likes Received:
    768
    Location:
    In space and passing through time.
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2017
    Usual Suspect likes this.
  20. Thomas R Morrison

    Thomas R Morrison Paranormal Adept

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2014
    Messages:
    264
    Likes Received:
    502
    Honestly Chris - your two projects (the SLV-CAM project and the mobile observatory project) are the only genuinely exciting and hopeful efforts currently underway in ufology. You could crack this walnut wide open - it's potentially game-changing work. And I don't wish for spare cash often, because I value the time I spend creating and studying far more than I value money - but when I think about your projects I seriously wish that I had five or six figures in the bank, because I'd sign it over to you in a heartbeat so you could start collecting data asap. Surely there has to be somebody out there with the discretionary funds to put you over the top - because any fool can see that your projects could spark a genuine revolution of bona fide scientific research into exotic aerial devices.

    If MUFON could pull their heads out of their arses for five minutes, they'd 1.) fund both of your projects quickly and generously, and connect you with first-rate scientists and technicians to optimize/maximize your system capabilities, and 2.) promote the crap out of those projects to inspire new memberships, and secure donations and widespread publicity for years to come. Because they claim to exist for the purpose of advancing scientific investigation into ufos, but you're the only person on the planet actually doing it.
     
Loading...

Share This Page