MUFON's Hanger 1: Two Critical Reviews

[Constance]

In 1791, the Reverend William Gregor, an English clergyman and mineralogist, reported that he had discovered a magnetic black sand near the beaches of Cornwall, England. The mineral was named menachanite after the local parish of Menaccan. A few years after Gregor’s discovery, M.H. Klaproth, a German chemist, separated TiO2 from the mineral rutile. Klaproth named the new element titanium after the giants of Greek mythology. In 1825, J.J. Berzelius, a Swedish chemist, performed a crude separation of titanium metal. However, it was not until 1910 that M.A. Hunter, an American chemist, produced pure titanium. W.J. Kroll patented his method for producing titanium metal in 1938. Coincidently, commercial production of titanium metal and TiO2 pigment began in the 1940s.

Maybe this is nothing more than keeping-up with the Russians? The Cold War was already started. Maybe some German materials or German rocket scientist we got was already onto using this type of material? The SR-71 may have been pre-dated by many other plans on the drawing boards decades earlier that were never built or just prototyped or only did basic materials science including the Germans. That would certainly be worth keeping top secret.

The Germans were likely the ones that had some expertise and use of this material during WWII. Regardless, seeing that there was a USA patent for this in 1938, then developing more advanced alloys using titanium for aircraft would already be in high gear to use it for military purposes with prototyping.

I know I've read that first paragraph (the one in blue) somewhere else recently. Have you quoted it, and if so what is the source? If memory serves, there was a great deal of information following it, but perhaps not.

 

[Frank Stalter]

W.J. Kroll patented his method for producing titanium metal in 1938. Coincidently, commercial production of titanium metal and TiO2 pigment began in the 1940s.

Maybe this is nothing more than keeping-up with the Russians? The Cold War was already started. Maybe some German materials or German rocket scientist we got was already onto using this type of material? The SR-71 may have been pre-dated by many other plans on the drawing boards decades earlier that were never built or just prototyped or only did basic materials science. That would certainly be worth keeping top secret.

The Germans were likely the ones that had some expertise and use of this material during WWII. Regardless, seeing that there was a USA patent for this in 1938, then developing more advanced alloys using titanium for aircraft would already be in high gear to use it for military purposes with prototyping.

You have just about everything wrong here. What Kroll patented was a process for extracting titanium from its' ore. It's still pretty well used to this day with some refinements. It was his patent . . . at first. He was from the Netherlands and came to the States in the late 30s to try to sell his idea to US steel companies. They all passed . . . I wrote all this four years ago. It's in the article.

The Germans did not use titanium in WW II, the US was not attempting to keep up with the Russians. I don't know what your source is on all this.

 

[Constance]

I knew I'd read that paragraph recently. Stalker, have you read the rest of Frank's article?

 

[DissectionStalker]

What Kroll patented was a process for extracting titanium from its' ore. It's still pretty well used to this day with some refinements. It was his patent . . . at first. He was from the Netherlands and came to the States in the late 30s to try to sell his idea to US steel companies. They all passed . . . I wrote all this four years ago. It's in the article.

He got a patent for it in Germany in 1937.

Materials Handbook: A Concise Desktop Reference - François Cardarelli - Google Books

The Germans did not use titanium in WW II, the US was not attempting to keep up with the Russians. I don't know what your source is on all this.

Kroll got a patent in 1937 in Germany, so how do you know the Germans were not using it in some top secret military R&D aircraft or weapons programs -at least from the standpoint of basic materials research? Maybe they had plans to use it, but the war ended and the Americans got that R&D info.

I just mention the Russians in the context of captured Germans and technology or spy intelligence. So, if we found it, then we would race the Russians too.

The "titanium history" snippet came from:

Titanium | Minerals Education Coalition

I'm just speculating based on how other advanced technology was being acquired from the Germans and others after WWII.

 

[Frank Stalter]

He got a patent for it in Germany in 1937.

Materials Handbook: A Concise Desktop Reference - François Cardarelli - Google Books

Kroll got a patent in 1937 in Germany, so how do you know the Germans were not using it in some top secret military R&D aircraft or weapons programs -at least from the standpoint of basic materials research? Maybe they had plans to use it, but the war ended and the Americans got that R&D info.

I just mention the Russians in the context of captured Germans and technology or spy intelligence. So, if we found it, then we would race the Russians too.

The "titanium history" snippet came from:

Titanium | Minerals Education Coalition

I'm just speculating based on how other advanced technology was being acquired from the Germans and others after WWII.

How do you know the Nazis were developing titanium? There's nothing in the record to indicate that. It was no secret then, as they were using them, or now that the Nazis were well ahead of anyone in two areas, rocket missile tech and jet engines. They had the V-1 and V-2 and a jet fighter before the end of the war. Beyond that I don't see much evidence . . . a lot of claims.

Just to clear things up, Kroll came to the US permanently in 1940, sailing from the Netherlands but he had been living in Belgium as best as I can determine. It's been awhile since I went over this stuff and wanted to clear that up.

 

[DissectionStalker]

Just to clear things up, Kroll came to the US permanently in 1940, sailing from the Netherlands but he had been living in Belgium as best as I can determine. It's been awhile since I went over this stuff and wanted to clear that up.

Here's another issue that may be a real problem for ET & Roswell. If you research Burt Rutan (x-NASA) and other military and space craft designs it seems composites materials are more important than titanium alloys for decades now. The SR-71 was the last aircraft, and only one, that ever used a lot of titanium alloys in its design.

So, given that we've already moved away from using titanium alloys for the most advanced military aircraft now, using composites for decades now, and Rutan and others prove composites are more important for space craft vs titanium alloys too, then somehow ET seems very dated assuming ET was using some kind of titanium alloys at the Roswell crash.

It just doesn't add-up, imo.

 

[Frank Stalter]

Here's another issue that may be a real problem for ET & Roswell. If you research Burt Rutan (x-NASA) and other military and space craft designs it seems composites materials are more important than titanium alloys for decades now. The SR-71 was the last aircraft, and only one, that ever used a lot of titanium alloys in its design.

So, given that we've already moved away from using titanium alloys for the most advanced military aircraft now, using composites for decades now, and Rutan and others prove composites are more important for space craft vs titanium alloys too, then somehow ET seems very dated assuming ET was using some kind of titanium alloys at the Roswell crash.

It just doesn't add-up, imo.

Titanium is used as part of those composites.

"The importance of titanium in the aerospace industry cannot be overstated. According to the latest figures from the U.S. Geological Survey, in 2012, some 72 percent of titanium metal consumed in the U.S. was used in aerospace applications . . . . Globally, as the English metal research house Roskill Information Services says in an overview of its forthcoming report on the metal (“Titanium Metal: Market Outlook to 2018”), with the increased use of composites, particularly carbon-compatible reinforced polymers (CFRP) in the manufacture of large passenger aircraft: “titanium’s position as a key material in the aerospace industry is assured and growing.”

Quite apart from all the other qualities that promote its use in the industry, titanium has one particular advantage over aluminum: It’s much easier to use in conjunction with composites. Unlike aluminum, not only do composites and titanium tend to contract and expand at the same rates, they neither corrode nor erode each other."

Abundant Titanium’s Import To Aerospace Well Known, But Other Industries Could Bring New Demand

 

[DissectionStalker]

I'll have to agree that titanium is still used in aircraft and spacecraft, and these industries are growing and not shrinking. But, there is no doubt that titanium is being used much less than it would have otherwise been needed, for example, the SR-71 that required large quantities of titanium 93% by weight of that aircraft.

Whereas, Boeing’s 777 only consists of 5 percent titanium by weight, and its 787 consists of 15% vs 93% for SR-71.

My point is that titanium is not needed in such high percentages per aircraft as before. It will be interesting to learn what lesser amounts will be used in drones too.

 

[Frank Stalter]

I'll have to agree that titanium is still used in aircraft and spacecraft, and these industries are growing and not shrinking. But, there is no doubt that titanium is being used much less than it would have otherwise been needed, for example, the SR-71 that required large quantities of titanium 93% by weight of that aircraft.

Whereas, Boeing’s 777 only consists of 5 percent titanium by weight, and its 787 consists of 15% vs 93% for SR-71.

My point is that titanium is not needed in such high percentages per aircraft as before. It will be interesting to learn what amounts will be used in drones too.

You're talking about commercial aircraft too. 787s don't need to do Mach 3.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Once again, why assume an advanced space craft from the stars is using technology that would match in any way what we are using now on Earth? To "them," wouldn't titanium be something so primitive as to be barely relevant?

The argument can continue as to the origins and development of titanium, but it's still a huge stretch to think that any of it came about from reverse engineering the construction of a UFO.

But I will continue to watch and read and see what you folks come up with.

 

[Frank Stalter]

Once again, why assume an advanced space craft from the stars is using technology that would match in any way what we are using now on Earth? To "them," wouldn't titanium be something so primitive as to be barely relevant?

The argument can continue as to the origins and development of titanium, but it's still a huge stretch to think that any of it came about from reverse engineering the construction of a UFO.

But I will continue to watch and read and see what you folks come up with.

Just about every aspect of the UFO phenomenon is a stretch. There are the rare cases when witness accounts are corroborated by radar but those are exceptional cases. At the end of the day, reverse engineering is a part of the UFO subject matter and to not take a closer look at metallurgy has been a blind spot in the field. I don't understand how you can not at least take it into consideration. Compared with some of the other things that are taken seriously in the field . . . alien abductions for example . . . this is pretty straightforward.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

I'm considering it. But the connection is, so far, murky.

 

[Frank Stalter]

I'm considering it. But the connection is, so far, murky.

I don't disagree with that. It's sort of a giant if-then statement but I think it's been worth the closer look.

 

[DissectionStalker]

The argument can continue as to the origins and development of titanium, but it's still a huge stretch to think that any of it came about from reverse engineering the construction of a UFO.

My points are two fold:

1) Titanium was being used in the 1940's, and it peaked with the SR-71. If titanium was found at Roswell, then it was man made, imo. What was alleged to be the Roswell titanium parts anyway? The silly flexible skin or ???

2) Titanium as a percentage of use by weight per aircraft reduced significantly after the SR-71 at 93% by weight vs 777 at 5% by weight.

I agree with you that ET's traveling light years to Earth would likely not be using titanium, especially, the Roswell kind.

I'm bowing out of this debate...

 

[DissectionStalker]

You're talking about commercial aircraft too. 787s don't need to do Mach 3.

That's an excellent point, but I wonder what that new unmanned Navy attack drone for aircraft carriers has in titanium by weight? There will still be a need for titanium in aircraft and spacecraft for decades to come, but it will continue to be used in lower percentages by weight per design, imo.

One thing is certain: the aerospace and military designer thought we would be using much more titanium per design 50 years ago vs what a next generation unmanned or manned design will use in the decades ahead.

Of course, if the price of titanium is lower vs other materials cost, then it's possible more titanium will be used too.

 

[Frank Stalter]

That's an excellent point, but I wonder what that new unmanned Navy attack drone for aircraft carriers has in titanium by weight? There will still be a need for titanium in aircraft and spacecraft for decades to come, but it will continue to be used in lower percentages by weight per design, imo.

One thing is certain: the aerospace and military designer thought we would be using much more titanium per design 50 years ago vs what a next generation unmanned or manned design will use in the decades ahead.

Of course, if the price of titanium is lower vs other materials cost, then it's possible more titanium will be used too.

They're still looking for a cheaper and faster way to extract titanium from the ore, but it's essentially still the Kroll process.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

And that's somehow based on ET technology?

 

[Frank Stalter]

And that's somehow based on ET technology?

The Kroll process? No, William Kroll came up with that in the 30s but no one in industry wanted to buy. Ultimately, the US government provided price supports to get industry to do the production work, DuPont subsidiary Rem-Cru, because of the expense involved and lack of a market save the military. No government price supports, no titanium industry at least at that point.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Meaning that the theory of ET reverse engineering is even less likely.

 

[Frank Stalter]

Meaning that the theory of ET reverse engineering is even less likely.

I'm not so sure about that.

"The Bureau of Aeronautics' interest and activity in this field date back about two years." Nathan Promisel, of the Materials Branch of the Navy Department's Bureau of Aeronautics, December 1948.