Michael Horn & The Billy Meier Contacts

[Kingman]

Here's my statement to any who are still wasting their time on this thread:

I've previously have experienced the same type of interaction from what purports to be researchers of the UFO mystery in a forum environment. This site right here has done the least in it's effort to study, examine along with peers, discuss real elements that expand the understanding, focus intelligence where knowledged participants openly increase the flow of their skills( beyond the one free sample then pay dearly for the rest-like style ), and make for an enjoyable learning experience.

There's a mountain, a undeniably massive source of debatable material any student who was SERIOUSLY seeking information on the subjects of UFO's available in The Billy Meier data. As we post here back and forth on nada, this unnatural design to block others from finding for themselves answers to this mystery are only helped by the fact that the two individuals who we hold responsible for the reality of what is created here, leaves anybody who reads this rather immature banter to want to actually go to read Billy's sites for themselves. So in a warp way, we all get what we want. Your actions send people to read for themselves and we get to see your forum go the route of mediocrity.

In truth, it would of preferred to be a part of a growing community, but not one that has this built in element to suppress knowledge for the greater good. You see, anybody with intelligence can read these posts and plainly see the intentions of the hosts and come to a rather quick conclusion the forum's is one sided, and bent on childish controls that have no desire to expand the truth. Petty actions of the controllers are weak minded attempts to be the great overlords of their miniscule domain. What fun is that for someone with intelligence? Your style of repression isn't even original, boring.....

So, it's done what I guess you can say is all it's capable of doing, and that's to expose more people to the incredible truth of Billy's reality, and to expose the posters here for what they are and that's not much.

Shawn King

 

[Kingman]

DB wrote,

" What's the point Michael? Others such as Jeff Ritzmann did meet your challenge, duplicated the pictures and in the end received no credit for it whatsoever."

Jeff's pictures are surely some of the better attempts at duplication, the problem DB is they can't pass the same tests that Billy's are put through. Not even close. Any examinations of Jeff's photo's are easily found to be faked. So they haven't duplicated anything as far as being able to hold them up and say " Jeff's faked pics are undetectable as such".

So there is no meeting the challenge, only a good attempt at trying. That's all the credit Jeff deserves.

Shawn King

 

[Aspie]

Kingman, you have obviously not read anything in the last 26 pages of this thread. Either that or you do not have the intelligence to understand it.

Any examinations of Jeff's photo's are easily found to be faked

as are Billy's, proved so by David, something which you ever so conveniently fail to address.

 

[Kingman]

Asspie,

When small minds look at a single image amongst 1000's and proclaim " Fraud!!!" That is not science my friend.

Shawn King

 

[David Biedny]

Shawn,

When you talk about the "testing" that Meier's images were put through, do you realize that it was not done by any reputable third party lab or expert? Someone who had nothing to gain, someone who could be honest and objective.

Do you know that Jeff Ritzmann agreed to submit his negatives and prints to an independant tester, if Meier would do the same, but not only was this generous offer turned down by Mr. Horn, it got to the point where Horn was threatening Jeff with physical violence? You might not believe that, but when I spoke to Jeff yesterday, he got intensely emotional at the memory of his unhealthy encounter with Horn. I really felt for him. We're going to speak with him on a future episode of The Paracast, about his own personal experiences in the paranormal realm. He's a sweet man, he told me about his family and his love for them. I think you would like him.

As I've stated to you, I've looked over a significant amount of the Meier material over the last 25 years or so, and always found it to be severely lacking on a number of fronts. What you need to understand is that there is indeed a mountain of material, photos, witness testimony and other artifacts of the UFO experience, it's just that the most scientifically convincing stuff out there has nothing to do with Meier. I'll say this again - the main problem I have with this case is that there is a deliberate attempt to discredit any and all evidence that does not originate from the Meier camp. Doesn't that strike you as even a little odd? Have you ever studied the methods of known cults, like the Branch Dividians, Scientology, and the vast majority of fundamentalist religions? They all share similar attributes - go look up the definition I posted yesterday for the word "cult", you'll understand that I mean.

Do you have any idea of how I feel when Mr. Horn tries to belittle my own life experiences? He is clearly jealous that some of us have had real, legitimate UFO encounters, and would marginalize what is in effect a traumatic experience for his own gain. Do you think it's fun to see a UFO? Let me tell you a little secret - it's terrifying, uncomfortable, as frightening an experience as I've ever had in my life. Your brain cannot believe what your eyes are seeing, until you realize you're not in a dream, the crowd around you is screaming and pointing and everyone is freaking out. Not fun. Why would I make this up? What do I have to gain from talking about this experience? Am I selling books and DVDs describing my personal views, using the exotic allure of UFOs as a way to get people interested in me? Perhaps I'm stupid, and I should do <i> exactly</i> this, but would it get me any closer to truth, or just put money in my bank account?

Look, I'm trying to be sincere with you, I know that you want to believe the Meier case, and in previous postings I could make jokes about your particular choice of words, but I recognize your core sincerity and desire for positive energy. I'm taking the time to seriously and honestly address your concerns, without the acerbic and downright nasty tone that Michael Horn used in just about every post he made here. Understand that my image analysis is a clear indication that the photo in question was fabricated, and the idea that creating another fabrication doesn't prove or disprove anything. Instead, ask yourself, if Meier was having genuine experiences, why would he fake a picture, or two, or five? What would be his motive, what would he gain? Would he use these images to create an aura of mystery and intrigue? Meier is constantly surrounded by a group of devoted fans and workers - I've read over the extensive lists of his sightings and witnesses, it's usually the exact same people who are cited as witnesses. How do you think this looks, from a truly objective point of view? The constant argument that he couldn't have made any of this stuff by himself just doesn't hold water with any reasonably intelligent person. Alea discovered a clearly plagiarized "prophecy", and has generously offered to do research to uncover more of them, what do you think that means in the end? Did Michael Horn deliver on his promise to comment on my image analysis in a direct way? Was he justified in citing "experts" that have no voice, no face? Was he justified in passing the blame about his misrepresentation of the Vogel patents?

Please think about these issues carefully, and yes, I admit than I can get emotional and acerbic myself, when provoked. Understanding the nature of reality, and the truth of the UFO and paranormal worlds, as much as is possible, is something I take very seriously and passionately. Most of my closest friends would tell you that they would be impressed at the level of restraint I've had in dealing with the direct insults, condemnations, accusations and abuse from Horn, and again, there is a long and consistent history of him using these same tactics with other well-meaning skeptics, which should really make you wonder about his agenda and intentions. The honest search for truth is a painful, treacherous road, which is pretty clear by the escalation of negativity that you've seen here. Does any of this particular message to you, the one you're hopefully reading right now, strike you as negative, demeaning, hateful or insincere? Listen to your inner mind and heart, do I sound like someone who is trying to make you hate anything? Do I sound like I want some honest answers, or am I someone protecting a single, particular idea of what UFOs are, and where they come from? Do I claim to understand exactly what they are all about? If someone came to you and said, "Shawn, I have all the secrets of the Universe, but if you want me to share them with you, I expect you to pay me in hard cash, and never question anything I say", would you trust them?

Think, and I mean, <b>really think</b> about what I say to you right now, with these words. Read this message carefully, thoughtfully, slowly. Don't respond for a day or two. Try it, and tell me what you feel after that time. Please.

Sincerely,

dB

 

[David Biedny]

Horn's latest email to Gene

> Nice spin, I've noted this too. You just couldn't resist and now your so far in over your heads that you do what all zealots and bullies do, try to censor the voice of opposition. And well you know that the vile bilge, including profanities, that was spewed by DB reveals the hypocrisy here.
>
>
> However, now that I'm not distracted by responding all the time, thank you, I'll take my time and publish my nice little press releases...which are all picked up with (certified) levels of 50,000-150,000 MEDIA hits, forwards, publications, etc.
>
>
> The good news is that you'll get LOTS of visitors...which is also the bad news.
>
>
> In case you haven't yet figured it out, you're way out of your league. I guess what I said long ago is right, there's one of me...and I've got you surrounded.
>
>
> MH

 

[Aspie]

I too received something similar from Reverend Horn. It was after my week long email encounter with him. After a week of him dodging the question I had had enough and I blocked his email. He couldn't handle that and he just had to have the last say, so he sent me another email from his yahoo address:

Simon Aspinall,

You were one of a number of skeptics and debunkers of
the Billy Meier case who were deliberately engaged in
online dialogue for the purpose of extracting their
best arguments and evidence, if any, against the case.
The purpose of these exchanges was to gather enough
interesting and challenging information for an article
to be posted on my site. It remains to be seen if
sufficiently qualifying material exists for such an
article in the abundance of correspondence but don't
worry, should there be, and should you really want
such exposure, you'll get your 5 minutes of fame.

And you are not alone in being unable to provide a
thoughtful, intelligent argument/response, if that is
of any comfort to you.

You were also provided with a quick form response once
I had all I wanted or needed from you, actually far
more than I wanted as you were quite redundant. You
kept responding to my request that you cease, or at
least answer my latest article, by continuing to write
and avoiding making any new contribution of any
significance, let alone not addressing the article.
That was very, very annoying and made me take the time
to keep sending the notice for you to stop...everyone
else was able to take the first clue - but not you!

You are, however, in "good" company only in so far as
that none of the other skeptics can utter one clear
word of credible rebuttal to the new article either.

You are only unique in so far as you appear to be a
younger person masquerading as an adult, yet
convincingly displaying no logical thinking abilities,
in the face of the overwhelming evidence that any
adult-level thinker would need to possess in order to
understand, let alone intelligently criticize, it.

Now, since you are blocking my regular address, please
add this one too, although you'll receive no more
correspondence from me and I, of course, have blocked
your address on both of these accounts. You'll just
have to continue to monitor my site to watch for the
article, which I know will be irresistibly unavoidable
for you.

As a final suggestion, should you still be in school
somewhere (I do hope that you're not a drop out with
too much time on your hands!), do take a course or two
in logic. It would serve you well to learn how to
think, and do credible research, should you wish to
pursue a career in a related field, once (if) you
graduate.

MH



It must be a regular thing for him to send out this form letter as that is what it is, as there are mistakes in it that don't apply to me. I wasn't debunking his case, he contacted me and I took the opportunity to ask him for some new predictions so I could record them.

It seems he just loves to jump on forums to try and stir up trouble. He just doesn't seem to understand that the majority of people don't believe his case. But he does all this to get a reaction so that he can throw together some poxy newsletter/press release in which he will claim victory.

It will be interesting to see his latest offering and see how he edits it to make it look in his favour.

 

[Kingman]

DB,

I'll comment on your post later as you suggest.

But I won't allow you to discredit the very professional investigation that has taken place over...YEARS...and push it aside as not believable. Valuable documented examinations that experienced professionals have proven in their areas, that the evidence they undertook to study, was found to be what it claimed to be or unexplainable. These costly, time consuming facts, that make the Billy Meier story an incredible value to mankind, cannot be so wastefully disposed of.

I mean, what in the world kind of investigator wouldn't want to pick up to where these previous investigators came to.
The credentials of someone such as Marcel Vogel are not attackable. This brilliant man studied the metal samples and concluded they was no way anything of this nature could be created as of our understanding in the scientific world.
You can't say...' well where's the metal samples?' Marcel Vogel is not a fabricator, he wasn't a 'Billy' follower when alive. And his work can be examined.

Now when you attack Mr. Vogel your credibility is zilch. Go for it. Make him out to be something other than what I've stated. I want to hear your opinion of this man. Not anything that will avoid this question, just what do YOU think about him.

Shawn King

 

[David Biedny]

Shawn,

I never attacked Marcel Vogel, I would believe and hope he was a smart, dedicated scientist and good man. I never, EVER made any comment about his character, or his many years at IBM. I simply stated that he does not hold any patents. It's NOT an attack, it's a statement of fact. The US Patent Office database is online, you can search it, there is NO patent in his name. As I've already mentioned, even if a company files for a patent (such as IBM), the individual scientist names MUST be on it as well. This is not my opinion, it's a fact. I'm not asking you to believe me, call the US Patent office and ask them. How long did Vogel look at the sample? How did he test it? Did Mr. Vogel publish his findings in a peer-reviewed journal? Have other scientists reviewed his work in a public forum and found it to be sound? THIS is how actual scientific inquiry and investigation happens. Did it happen here? Can you say this without any doubt? Can it be proven, beyond someone's word? Are you willing to bet your life on it?

No one else EVER saw a metal sample. NO ONE. Others have asked the Meier people for samples, and they refuse to comply. WHY? Others have asked for original negatives, again no response. WHY?

Just because something has happened over time, it doesn't make it true or even more valid. I submit to you the notion that as time passes, memories grow clouded, people forget important details, especially when we're talking about second and third hand information. And Shawn, over time there are revelations that surface that cast new light on previously-accepted "facts".

Think about this for a moment: tomorrow, spaceships land on the Earth, and aliens tell us that Jesus was not actually a human, but was an alien. Do we believe them? Are they lying to us to gain control over our world? Does anyone know what Jesus <i>really</i> looked like? What if they bring out some guy with a beard, light eyes, who can walk on water and heal the sick - are you SURE it's Jesus? What would people do, how would they react for real?

You've got to realize, I'm not asking anyone here to trust me at face value. I did an analysis of an image, and I've invited people to look at it, study it, comment on it, prove it to be wrong. I think it's only fair that if I took the time to do this, couldn't anyone from the Meier camp show me a moment of consideration and comment on it directly? I asked for anyone to prove to me that a particular image was genuine, using current, verifiable image processing techniques. Do you think that such a request is unreasonable? Wouldn't you want the same kind of consideration and intensity if an investigation dealt with the health of a child of yours? What if you had a son or daughter, and they were sick, and you took them to a doctor that said that there were terminally ill. Would you want, demand a second opinion? Would you do everything you could to get to the truth of their condition?

dB

 

[Kingman]

DB wrote...

" Do I claim to understand exactly what they are all about? If someone came to you and said, "Shawn, I have all the secrets of the Universe, but if you want me to share them with you, I expect you to pay me in hard cash, and never question anything I say", would you trust them?"

What in the world does this have to do with anything? All the information anyone needs to explore the BM story is freely accessible on the net. If you wish to know more they have published materials( which costs money to produce, translate, administer, update, advertise, warehouse, etc.) that are available and assist in the research. And where do you get off insinuating that Billy requires us to follow his beliefs without question? Where do you come up with this stuff? I have never even felt anything such as that, let alone read such statements from the materials.

It's this false information you offer up as your reasons to distrust the BM story, but there's nothing behind your accusations. You sir are a fraud and are once again trying to deceive people as to the real facts. You call the figu group a cult, and any person of education in the religious fields will not see their organization as a cult, it doesn't fit.
You are not someone who can claim any experience with the figu people, so don't show yourself as the hypocrite you are now again looking like. Stop while you can still look yourself in the mirror.

Your weak one example of an anomaly is all you have as the start of your documented proof. If you want to convince me of what you are saying, then build on it with more of your expertise. Take these people who are confronting you to the test if you are so strongly concerned about paranormal research as you state. Stand on the grounds you claim and work to build your evidence. Tossing blame and citing other debunkers work doesn't say squat about your evidence. You can't make me think it's not your job. Your a serious researcher right?. Well?

Shawn King

 

[David Biedny]

Shawn,

I've done all I can to appeal to your decency, curiosity and honesty.

I sincerely wish you peace, and hope you find the answers you seek.

dB

 

[Kingman]

DB wrote...

" I never attacked Marcel Vogel, I would believe and hope he was a smart, dedicated scientist and good man. I never, EVER made any comment about his character, or his many years at IBM. I simply stated that he does not hold any patents. It's NOT an attack, it's a statement of fact. The US Patent Office database is online, you can search it, there is NO patent in his name. As I've already mentioned, even if a company files for a patent (such as IBM), the individual scientist names MUST be on it as well. This is not my opinion, it's a fact. I'm not asking you to believe me, call the US Patent office and ask them. How long did Vogel look at the sample? How did he test it? Did Mr. Vogel publish his findings in a peer-reviewed journal? Have other scientists reviewed his work in a public forum and found it to be sound? THIS is how actual scientific inquiry and investigation happens. Did it happen here? Can you say this without any doubt? Can it be proven, beyond someone's word? Are you willing to bet your life on it?

No one else EVER saw a metal sample. NO ONE. Others have asked the Meier people for samples, and they refuse to comply. WHY? Others have asked for original negatives, again no response. WHY?"

The metal samples were also examined by EMPA( Swiss Institute for Material Testing). Does that sound like no one else? And if I were and Extra-Terrestrial intelligent being, I would be very careful not to allow advanced technological insights to fall into the hands of the truly barbaric leaders of humans on this planet. We are not ready to enter the cosmos as respectful members. Were dangerous to the peaceful aspects that have learned from their stupid mistakes unlike the idiots we allow to rule us. And I actually meant I wanted you to try and attack the man, not that you had. It's really lame how you go after the stupid, meaningless elements of something instead of just responding to the REAL issues. Not whining about stuff like proving that Vogel has such patents, when it's widely know the man was the developer of liquid crystal, magnetic films, the floppy disk, as well as his first discovery for bio-luminescences as a teenager. These facts and his respect he had while alive in the scientific industry speaks for itself. But no you go...'where's these patents!'....grow up and realize were all watching your silly attempts at deflection.

DB wrote...

" Think about this for a moment: tomorrow, spaceships land on the Earth, and aliens tell us that Jesus was not actually a human, but was an alien. Do we believe them? Are they lying to us to gain control over our world? Does anyone know what Jesus really looked like? What if they bring out some guy with a beard, light eyes, who can walk on water and heal the sick - are you SURE it's Jesus? What would people do, how would they react for real?"

No one knows these supposed aliens. We have an industry that knows Mr. Vogel. The rest of the questions in this quote are not part applicable past Mr Vogels vouch-ability.

DB wrote...

" What if you had a son or daughter, and they were sick, and you took them to a doctor that said that there were terminally ill. Would you want, demand a second opinion? Would you do everything you could to get to the truth of their condition? "

That's why we require you to add to your findings. The Billy Meiers story is established. Very much so. For you to come along and disprove it will take you more than one ultimately minute camera aberration you discovered. Your claim that it was a deliberate fabrication needs to be substantiated. Pointing to a open window doesn't mean someone broke into your house. Your total combined investigation would never, in any court conceivable, look at your proof and allow a trial, let alone your 'verdict'. Your sand castle will not survive the tide of BM's ocean of evidence.

Shawn King

 

[Kingman]

DB wrote...

" Shawn,

I've done all I can to appeal to your decency, curiosity and honesty.

I sincerely wish you peace, and hope you find the answers you seek."

dB


You have no argument.

Shawn King

 

[michael]

David wrote:

Think about this for a moment: tomorrow, spaceships land on the Earth, and aliens tell us that Jesus was not actually a human, but was an alien. Do we believe them? Are they lying to us to gain control over our world? Does anyone know what Jesus really looked like? What if they bring out some guy with a beard, light eyes, who can walk on water and heal the sick - are you SURE it's Jesus? What would people do, how would they react for real?

Great idea for a novel or screenplay. What do you say David? Want to become rich?

 

[Alea]

Shawn,

"...Not whining about stuff like proving that Vogel has such patents, when it's widely know the man was the developer of liquid crystal, magnetic films, the floppy disk, as well as his first discovery for bio-luminescences as a teenager. These facts and his respect he had while alive in the scientific industry speaks for itself..."



Without a patent record, Vogel does not hold a particular patent. FACT. How can you say "whining"? Edison has the patent for the record player, but this doesn't mean that he has the one for the telephone; and no one can argue that he does by saying "so what" he holds patents on other stuff.


Without any substantiated, scientific evidence (Billy would put it on his web site if it existed), the Meier case is FAITH, not FACT. I AM a serious researcher and I've been looking through the information on the Internet as well as in scholarly, scientific, and academic databases for conclusive evidence on Meier's body of work. I've in no way gone through all of the material yet, and if a report from the EMPA exists, I would be interested in reading it. If you are familar with anything else, like a report, that can be documented and validated, I would appreciate if you could point me to it. I'm happy to write up my results and submit them to a journal that is respected and peer reviewed. Thanks for your help.

 

[Kingman]

Alea wrote...

" Without a patent record, Vogel does not hold a particular patent. FACT. How can you say "whining"? Edison has the patent for the record player, but this doesn't mean that he has the one for the telephone; and no one can argue that he does by saying "so what" he holds patents on other stuff. "

As I said like DB does...Mr Vogel is the known person for the inventions I post. I never said patent as a needed personal voucher for his credibility.

You people are still not able to respond with what would require intelligence.

Shawn King

 

[Kingman]

David wrote:

Think about this for a moment: tomorrow, spaceships land on the Earth, and aliens tell us that Jesus was not actually a human, but was an alien. Do we believe them? Are they lying to us to gain control over our world? Does anyone know what Jesus really looked like? What if they bring out some guy with a beard, light eyes, who can walk on water and heal the sick - are you SURE it's Jesus? What would people do, how would they react for real?

Great idea for a novel or screenplay. What do you say David? Want to become rich?

Yup, science fiction is much better suited to your world.

Shawn King

 

[David Biedny]

Alea wrote...

" Without a patent record, Vogel does not hold a particular patent. FACT. How can you say "whining"? Edison has the patent for the record player, but this doesn't mean that he has the one for the telephone; and no one can argue that he does by saying "so what" he holds patents on other stuff. "

As I said like DB does...Mr Vogel is the known person for the inventions I post. I never said patent as a needed personal voucher for his credibility.

You people are still not able to respond with what would require intelligence.

Shawn King

dB

 

[Kingman]

Alea wrote...

" Without a patent record, Vogel does not hold a particular patent. FACT. How can you say "whining"? Edison has the patent for the record player, but this doesn't mean that he has the one for the telephone; and no one can argue that he does by saying "so what" he holds patents on other stuff. "

As I said like DB does...Mr Vogel is the known person for the inventions I post. I never said patent as a needed personal voucher for his credibility.

You people are still not able to respond with what would require intelligence.

Shawn King

dB

Another brilliant response by Mr. All Knowing himself....DmB....(just put a 'u' in there)

gotta hand it to you, ( magin my hnd roled up, excvpt my cnter fnger ) your really not something.

Shawn King

 

[Alea]

Kingman, you have obviously not read anything in the last 26 pages of this thread. Either that or you do not have the intelligence to understand it.

Any examinations of Jeff's photo's are easily found to be faked

as are Billy's, proved so by David, something which you ever so conveniently fail to address.

Thanks Aspie; I'll obtain the Swiss report myself;

Shawn, as for that middle finger, please put it back in your pocket and don't go waving it around.

Thank you.