May 20, 2012-The Aztec Incident: Recovery at Hart Canyon

[wwkirk]

A good show as usual. I respect the authors for sticking to the known facts or admitting when they were speculating. I think they made a good case for something of unusual having crashed. The sticking point is the issue of transportation. How could a lenticular craft 100 feet in diameter be broken apart? Did it have seams? If the overall story is true, then maybe the size is an exaggeration.

 

[Sentry]

Ha- no way they broke up this massive craft and trucked it out. Answer is obvious. They recharged the batteries and then flew it out of there.

 

[SRL+]

I thought the highlight of the show was the traveling Baptist Minister praying over the burnt and charred remains of those poor ET's. I heard somewhere that they smell and taste like chicken, but that may have been rattlesnake I was thinking of. That couple seemed so pleasant. I just can't see bringing myself to do it, as I'm sure that the ET's have made their way to Heaven by now.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Ha- no way they broke up this massive craft and trucked it out. Answer is obvious. They recharged the batteries and then flew it out of there.

Make it so!

 

[ALPHA ROMEO UNIFORM]

Found them to be nice folks but the story seems to be patchy and maybe the minister came from minister to humans in a WW 2 experimental craft if "true "more likely. Hell who knows its lots of questions.

 

[SPX]

Interesting show. I enjoyed it quite a bit. If I had a criticism it's one that I have with a lot of such shows, and that's that instead of trying to present the case from the ground up, building it block by block, facts are just kind of thrown at you scattershot.

As far as whether or not it actually happened, well, I am definitely more open to the possibility of Aztec being the real deal if for no other reason than that the Ramsey's seem like knowledgeable, credible people and if they are convinced that something happened, then I feel like I should at least stay open-minded.

What I would REALLY like to know though--and this is not a snarky comment, it's because I myself have have done some writing for magazines and would like to get into serious investigative work--is why it's taken 25 years to do the research and what exactly the hundreds of thousands of dollars that were spent went toward.

 

[Jeff Crowell]

I'd thought that Aztec was pretty much the fabrication of two disreputable guys who duped a 3rd. I didn't know there was a larger witness base than that. This fact impressed me more. The most skeptical aspects were, of course, the idea of breaking apart a UFO and hauling it out of there. That's like a guy from the 12th century taking apart an iPhone with no help. Then there was the question of documentation. Gene posed it near the end and I wasn't really satisfied with the dude's answer. To me "documentation" is more official then a few hundred, or thousand, correspondents. To me "documentation" are things like affidavits, court records, even geological surveys...things that stemmed from government or scientific investigation, not letters tossed about by an investigator who already believes in what he's investigating and some witnesses who also believe it, either for a potential paycheck or because they honestly saw something.

Still, in the end I think Aztec has something more behind it than simple falsity and fabrication, but we'll never know. That means Aztec is relegated into the same category of Roswell...interesting but just archive it as historical since we'll never know for sure.

Now...on to something more recent....whatever that may be!

 

[Flatwoods]

Now that was one excellent episode of The Paracast. Scott Ramsey is one of my favorite guests, and I've been looking forward to his book finally getting finished. One area of the story I'd like to know more about, though, is the origin. What is the very earliest mention of the Aztec crash? I've know about the two con men and the oil/mineral story for awhile, but that has never really disproved the case. For instance, Alex Jones promotes some very wild conspiracy theories, but just because he rants about 9-11 doesn't mean that nothing happened on 9-11.

Then again, I suppose it's possible the entire Aztec story could have been just a convolution of Roswell, but only if the witnesses are lying. Ultimately, I don't know.

 

[Polterwurst]

That's like a guy from the 12th century taking apart an iPhone with no help.

Hit it with a big enough hammer? ouch. Of course, that would mean something like stuffing the saucer with dynamite and blow it apart. Very messy. The explosion would have been audible for miles I guess.

Oh man, these crashed saucers. I mean, did they use the southwestern US for test flying unstable prototypes or what? It's very tempting to dismiss it all as just a myth getting out of control. The cement slab could be explained otherwise I guess. But what to make of the testimonies? What to make of the years of hard work and research of these two indubitably honest and knowledgeable people? Can't just dismiss that.

Once again, note how in the "beginning" of the modern saucer phenomenon the occupants are described as little men. Not little creatures, humanoids or beings (as I would describe the modern image of the small greys). Of course, back then, most people probably thought that intelligent beings from another planet had to be human-like (because of religious beliefs or simply because they couldn't imagine otherwise). Which would point to the possibility of them being pure myth. But H. G. Wells' description of the Martians in War of the Worlds shows that at least some people could imagine them otherwise long before the 1940s and 50s.
So maybe their looking like little men (if any of these stories are true) could mean that they are related to us. Like being from a parallel earth or the far distant future or both. Yeah, I know. That's just replacing one speculation with another.

 

[Fcseven]

Excellent Broadcast. I felt Scott and Suzanne Ramsey made a very good case. My BS o'meter didn't even go off once the entire interview. I will be buying the book when it's on Kindle.

 

[SPX]

Oh man, these crashed saucers. I mean, did they use the southwestern US for test flying unstable prototypes or what?

There have always been two things that pop up in my mind when this issue comes up. Because inevitably the point is mentioned that if aliens are technologically advanced enough to travel from lightyears away or from another dimension or wherever they are from, surely they can keep their ships under control and not crash.

First, regardless of how advanced they are, they are still mechanical objects and ultimately any mechanical object will fail. We really don't know how many craft of extra-terrestrial/dimensional origin (if any) visit us on a regular basis. Maybe it's thousands and only a tiny fraction have ever crashed? If in fact it is a very large number, one or two crashes is to be expected, I would think. After all, I'm sure that our modern jets would seem like super advanced technology to a less advanced civilization, and yet, they still crash.

Second, the fact that most of these cases DO take place in the southwestern desert leads me down the military test craft line of thinking. After all, the remote areas of New Mexico has always been fertile ground for military testing. What gives me pause though is the fact that UFO reports often involve descriptions of something so advanced that I just can't believe we possess that sort of technology.

Once again, note how in the "beginning" of the modern saucer phenomenon the occupants are described as little men. Not little creatures, humanoids or beings (as I would describe the modern image of the small greys). Of course, back then, most people probably thought that intelligent beings from another planet had to be human-like (because of religious beliefs or simply because they couldn't imagine otherwise). Which would point to the possibility of them being pure myth. But H. G. Wells' description of the Martians in War of the Worlds shows that at least some people could imagine them otherwise long before the 1940s and 50s.

This has never been a huge stumbling block for me. After all, when we look toward other planets that might harbor life, we usually look for other earth-like planets with lots of water in the traditional habitable zone. And I feel like if the planet is really that earth-like, shouldn't the inhabitants also be earth-like considering they are existing within such a similar environment?

Of course, there is always the possibility that our idea of "life" is very limited, and that there are planets that are nothing like earth that have their own sort of life which is tailored to its environment, an environment that is very different from what we know and so the life that exists there is also very different.

 

[mike]

I found it an interesting show, the guests did a lot of legwork on this

 

[ondafritz]

I don't know what to think about Aztec - the crash! Anything that is solid and 100 feet in diameter is going to be really heavy. I had heard speculation that they broke it into pieces when they figured out it was held together magnetically. Maybe. But, assuming the story is true for a minute, I believe that the people who gave the 100 foot figure were just plain wrong. I can't guess size or distance to save my life. And I have not heard of the people giving the size estimate having had rulers in their hands at the time. I am not blaming the Ramsey's for this but I think the people who gave the info originally were just wrong. If I saw something as mind blowing as this, I believe I could be forgiven for not being correct in all aspects of my description.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

This is one of the key problems with the story. But if we consider the possibility, as you suggest, that the size of the flying saucer was "inflated" in the passage of time, there are other aspects of the case that are definitely worth further study. But it is probably too late to get much more evidence, unless someone, alive somewhere, can produce a miracle.

 

[ondafritz]

This is one of the key problems with the story. But if we consider the possibility, as you suggest, that the size of the flying saucer was "inflated" in the passage of time, there are other aspects of the case that are definitely worth further study. But it is probably too late to get much more evidence, unless someone, alive somewhere, can produce a miracle.

Agreed!

 

[Flatwoods]

Once again, note how in the "beginning" of the modern saucer phenomenon the occupants are described as little men. Not little creatures, humanoids or beings (as I would describe the modern image of the small greys). Of course, back then, most people probably thought that intelligent beings from another planet had to be human-like (because of religious beliefs or simply because they couldn't imagine otherwise). Which would point to the possibility of them being pure myth. But H. G. Wells' description of the Martians in War of the Worlds shows that at least some people could imagine them otherwise long before the 1940s and 50s.
So maybe their looking like little men (if any of these stories are true) could mean that they are related to us. Like being from a parallel earth or the far distant future or both. Yeah, I know. That's just replacing one speculation with another.

For me, the description of the bodies brings to mind Annie Jacobsen's book about area 51, and and the alleged surgically altered Russian test pilots. Of course, I don't take that story at face value, but it still has a whisper of plausibility. It makes me wonder if there were any top-secret American military programs involving surgically enhanced test pilots. That would at least be a new angle to pursue.

 

[Sentry]

For me, the description of the bodies brings to mind ... surgically enhanced test pilots.

For me, the description of the bodies brings to mind Leprechauns. With their vast wealth, is it so difficult to believe they may have outpaced us technologically?

 

[Gene Steinberg]

So this isn't alien technology, then. It's leprechaun technology.

 

[Bob Zanotti]

Like Gene and Chris, as a broadcaster I've interviewed hundreds of people about all kinds of subjects, mainstream and off-beat. The Ramseys impressed me with their sincerity and seriousness. I trust them, especially since personal gain is not their goal, nor, do I think, are they on an ego trip.

It has often occurred to me that the classic secret military testing areas of the American West seem to be the center of mysterious UFO crash stories and other strange doings. I think it is perfectly logical and acceptable to assert that these may, indeed, have been accidents or incidents involving developmental craft or devices. After all, where else could such craft be tested? For one thing, the tests would have to have been done near the developmental research installations. And some key ones were also in that area.

I also find it interesting that these incidents occurred during the period when German war defectors were very busy continuing the developmental work they started back in Germany. Some of that work was certainly rocket-oriented technology, but other efforts may well have been toward the development of craft using totally new or unheard-of technology.

At that time, the Germans were probably the best educated people in Europe. By nature, they were, and stall are, very scientifically inclined. Iuf fact, when I studied German back in the 60’s, it was still often referred to as “the language of science”.

I am wide open to the possibility that UFO and ET’s are not of this planet or dimension. But before we get esoteric, perhaps we should look first at explanations closer to home.

In other words: I can well imagine that Roswell and Aztec did happen – as well as other bizarre things – but the question is who were they, really, and where did they come from?

 

[Bob Zanotti]

BTW, Gene, please upgrade me from "Paranormal Novice". I think I've earned my paranormal stripes after 50 years.