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Jim Moseley Show 1/22/12

Sentry

Paranormal Adept
Great show, and I’m glad that Jim had the chance to answer so many listeners' questions. I especially enjoyed the discussion of his changing positions of UFO origins over the years in the face of new evidence. Sounds to me like Jim’s managed to keep an open mind.

The episode involving Jim’s access to Project Blue Book files was good too, but he left out something important, a key insight into U.S. Government UFO secrecy. A while back, I read a copy of the notes for Jim’s unfinished 1950s book. In it, he describes showing the Blue Book files he copied to Ed Ruppelt and Al Chop while interviewing them. They were disturbed by the inclusion of classified data, and after their meeting, they contacted the Pentagon. As a result, Blue Book files were temporarily closed to the public until the secret material could be excised. What big classified secret did Jim expose? Some of the case files included the tail numbers of Air Force planes, and also the type and location of radar installations. These unexciting details were left in the reports, which were not originally intended for the public, and they certainly didn’t want the Soviets to have them. Such mundane secrets probably account for the over-classification of many Government documents, not just UFO related ones.

Getting back to the show, Gene did a nice job of steering the conversation and keeping it on the rails. It was fun to hear Jim dish some of the dirt on Kevin Randle’s Roswell Dream Team, Donald Kehoe, Bill Moore and others.
 
I agree with Gene, Chris and Jim's take that roswell is indeed a dead hoarse that will most likely never be solved, however while listening to the last nights show something came up that continues to bug me. Jim was/is under the impression that Roswell is explainable with the project Mogal story, I would love to be able to agree because I tend to think most mysterys are explainable with the most simple ordinary chain of events. The problem I keep runing into with Roswell is among the few concrete facts we know is that Jessie Marcell was photographed with ordinary (of this earth) debrie at Wright Paterson A.F.B. in Ohio, why on earth would the army bother with transporting trash (the weather balloon wreckage) across the country in the first place. This to me is strong evidence that something happened that I nor most of the general public will likely never know. I would love to get some feedback on what you think about my reasoning.
 
You have a good point, and I have no idea why they would have ordered the materials moved if they were identifiable. But- the debris shown in the photos is consistent with what the recovered materials described by Mac Brazel. The other witness descriptions are similar, even the ones that attribute mysterious properties to them. If we believe the preponderance of original witness testimony, whatever crashed left wreckage startling similar to radar targets- the kind used in Mogul balloon trains.
 
What i find odd is this though

  • Marcel Sr.: "[There were] small beams about three-eighths or a half inch square with some sort of hieroglyphics on them that nobody could decipher. These looked something like balsa wood, and were of about the same weight, except that they were not wood at all. They were very hard, although flexible, and would not burn." More detailed quote above.
  • Brazel Jr.: Similar quote as Marcel's, also given above. Also, "I couldn't break it and I couldn't whittle it with my pocketknife."
  • Brazel Jr.: "The odd thing about this foil was that you could wrinkle it and lay it back down and it immediately resumed its original shape. It was quite pliable, yet you couldn't crease or bend it like ordinary metal. It was almost more like a plastic of some sort except that it was definitely metallic in nature."
  • Marcel Sr.: "[There were] many bits of metallic foil, that looked like, but was not, aluminum, for no matter how often one crumpled it, it regained its original shape again. Besides that, they were indestructible, even with a sledgehammer."
  • Sgt. Robert Smith, Roswell 1st Air Transport Unit: "When you crumpled it up, it then laid back out; and when it did, it kind of crackled, making a sound like cellophane, and it crackled when it was let out. There were no creases."

This isnt imo consistant with known materials at that time, are they all telling lies ?

Wood that doesnt burn, cant be scratched or whittled with a knife, "metal" that couldnt be bent or creased even with a sledgie.

Its this aspect of the story that always leaves be baffled, the logical explanation is they are lying..........
 
Great interview. Moseley sounds like a kind of living embodiment of the history modern ufology. He also seems to know something pertinent about almost every aspect of the phenomenon, a good reason to have him back sometime soon.

As for Roswell, there remain too many prominent and credible people on record to strange events to consign it to the scrap heap of things forgotten. I agree the horse is indeed mostly dead from the standpoint of research. And there are only so many coffee shops in the pleasant little town of Roswell. But the mystery stands as a kind of cornerstone to modern ufology.
 
I go back and forth on what the actual answer is. I lean toward the military ops but then I have to ask my self about the ancient and older sightings. Those have nothing to do with the U.S. military. Then I look at the inter dimensional and I think well, that would explain quite a bit of the way they seem to move and come in and out of sight. Also, would explain the abduction part of it. But, so does the nuts and bolts if you are looking at a superior technology. It might well seem like something supernatural to us. So, I remain a u.f.o. agnostic but I do enjoy the conversation.
Hey, at least I moved from u.f.o. atheist to u.f.o. agnostic. :p
 
Nice interview. I always get a kick out of the Adamski State Dept. letter story. It never gets old. In Wikipedia Adamski is characterized as the "victim" of Mosley's hoax. More like the beneficiary.:D
 
Here's the masterpiece:

"To Professor George Adamski

My Dear Professor, For the time being let us consider this a
personal letter and not to be construed as an official
communication of the Department. I speak on behalf opf only a
part of our people here in regard to the controversial matter of
the UFO, but I might add that my group has been outspoken in its
criticism of official policy.

We have also criticized the self-assumed role of our Air Force
in usurping the role of chief investigating agency on the UFO.
Your own experiences will lead you to know already that the
Department has done its own research and has been able to arrive
at a number of sound consclusions. It will no doubt please you
to know that the Department has on file a great deal of
confirmatory evidence bearing out your own claims, which as both
of us must realize, are controversial and have been disputed
generally.

While certainly the department cannot publicly confirm your
experiences, it can I believe, with propriety, encourage your
work and your communication of what you sincerely believe should
be told to our American public.

In the event you are in Washington I do hope that you will stop
by for an informal talk. I expect to be away from Washington
during the most of February, but should return by the last week
in that month.

Sincerely, R.E. Straith (Cultural Exchange Committee)

RES/me"
 
It is always a pleasure to listen to the ineffable Supreme Commander Moseley. I am glad to hear that there are plans to have him back periodically. His episodes are as unique and distinctive as the man himself.
 
Douglas Dietrich claims to have been a DOD research librarian who was tasked with burning many classified documents, some of which he read. He has a very different Roswell story that supports Keel. I've seen the entire presentation and like most of this business, I don't really know what to make of it. Here is a very brief summary.

 
I am as confused with the whole Roswell thing as everyone else. I am not sure I agree with the Mogul balloon theory that Jim Moseley was talking about in the episode. I get the thing about this unique tape etc but it does not answer for me the most fundamental questions.
Why was a weather balloon misidentified in the first place as a crashed saucer? I would think that the only atomic bomber wing on earth would be privvy to whatever might be floating around in the skies near such a base?
Why does Jesse Marcel Jr still today contend that what he saw in his fathers house was not earthly material (i realise that he was a young boy, but he would have picked up the vibe from his father surely)?
Is everyone lying who claims they were leaned on not to further publicise the saucer story?
For me, this is the kicker: If it was a weather/mogul balloon, how is it the debris field was so extensive in length and in number of parts of debris? I mean, if a balloon were to fall to earth, either it would lose it's bouyancy and come down slowly (no doubt in one or maybe two pieces). Even if a balloon was to come down quite quickly, I am sure it's terminal velocity would be a good deal less than that attained by a human in free fall, so how come something that is not a ridgid structure and not falling at a great speed, manages to 'explode' into so many little pieces?
I would expect only a ridgid structure travelling at great speed would tear apart on impact and spread itself over such an area?
I reserve the right to be wrong but can someone explain how something with the structure of a balloon can end up in a large debris field of many small pieces?
 
@Sentry - yeah thanks, i found a pic myself but for me, what i've said stands. I don't see this balloon and radar target getting to such a speed that it is blown to smithereens. All accounts of the debris field I've read sound more like something had exploded. Balloons and targets still need to be light, and would have a significant amount of drag. Both these factors would make it hard to be heading to the ground at high speed. At least not enough for it to explode. Be ripped apart a bit? Maybe.
If anyone has any expertise on balloons etc, please weigh in!
 
Another consideration is that balloons were not such rarities that personnel involved with aircraft would be unable to make it out for that.

Also, let's not forget the initial published report of something unusual as crashing. I'm taking that to be the most candid estimation of what happened. Brazel said that he had previously found two weather balloons on the ranch, but that what he found this time did not in any way resemble either of these.Are Mogul balloons so unusual that they can't be recognized as such.? Not from the photos.
 
I love hearing Jim's thoughts. It's like listening to my Uncle Jacob if he was interested in UFOs. Same sense of humor and same voice. RIP Uncle Jacob.
 
Moseley obviously knows very little about Roswell. Bessy Brazel Schreiber eventually recanted much of her testimony, saying she was probably confusing memories with some other event. Her debris descriptions never did match up well with the alleged "Flight #4", which never existed. Her testimony also conflicted on many points with other witnesses, such as her older brother Bill Brazel, who said she wasn't there, and whose anomalous debris descriptions and descriptions of the large size of the debris field matched up almost exactly with Roswell intel officer Major Jesse Marcel even though the two men did not know one another. There were also many other witnesses to the strange debris and large debris field, all inconsistent with the Mogul theory. (Even Roswell intel officer Jesse Marcel clear back in 1947 was quoted by AP saying the debris was scattered over a "square mile.")

Rancher Mack Brazel also totally recanted his balloon testimony right after giving it in his press interview, saying he had previously found two weather balloons on his property and what he found didn't resemble these in any way. But there was zero difference between the weather balloons/radar targets of the early Moguls and standard off-the-shelf meteorological balloons/radar targets. None of the materials were exotic in any way (quite the contrary), certainly not enough to get Brazel or the military worked up, and certainly just about impossible to confuse with the widely reported flying saucers, which were supposed to be large, metallic aircraft that flew at high speed.

To believe that various officers at Roswell could make such a boneheaded mistake and compound it further by issuing a press release that they had a real flying disc in their possession is to believe that the base was staffed by nothing but drooling idiots. Had they really been so incompetent or stupid, we also would have seen it reflected in their subsequent careers, which should have gone into a nose dive. Quite the contrary happened. Col. Blanchard, e.g., became a full general and Vice USAF Chief of Staff. Marcel got high praise afterward from senior officers involved, a promotion, a highly sensitive top-secret intelligence position in Washington, etc.

Numerous witnesses place Brazel Sr. in military custody, including son Bill and Roswell provost marshal William Easley, who admitted they held him at the base under armed guard for several days (over mundane weather balloon debris?). A very simple explanation for Brazel's initial balloon story (and also Bessy Brazel's "flower tape") is Brazel being coached in what to say while being held by the military, which might include showing him a radar target to describe. So that may be where "flower tape" came from, perhaps picked up by Bessy Brazel from reading newspaper stories about her Dad's interview or being given to her later by her father, but not witnessed personally by her.

Brazel's story is also notable in what he did NOT say he found. He NEVER described anything that would clearly link the debris to Mogul, such as ballast, altitude control equipment, parachutes, launch rings, sonobuoy, radiosonde, batteries, etc. Especially notable was the complete absence of any twine or string, of which there should have been hundreds of yards. In fact, Brazel specifically denied finding anything like that. Where did it go? (The Air Force realized the absence of string/twine was a serious problem, asked Mogul engineer Charles Moore about it, and when he couldn't provide an explanation, they deliberately dropped the issue. You won't find this serious inconsistency with the Mogul theory brought up again in their debunking report. I wonder why?)

Brazel's weather-balloon/not-weather-balloon press conference was held several hours after Gen. Ramey in Fort Worth had already put out the official singular weather balloon/radar target "explanation." (Thus plenty of time to coach/coerce Brazel after rounding him up.) Ramey displayed exactly what he said it was. There was only a single radar target and single weather balloon in the Fort Worth photos, not multiple balloons and targets as would be expected from a real Mogul recovery. And again there was no evidence of any Mogul equipment that would have linked the debris to a real Mogul. Ramey also denied anything additional being found. Again notable in its absence was any string or twine, as would be expected from a real Mogul or even a real flown weather balloon with radar target attached. (There is various circumstantial evidence in the photos, such as the absence of string and totally pristine clean target, that this was fresh target taken from a box and broken/torn up for the photo shoot, i.e., not what was found at Roswell.)

Additionally, I have often thrown down the challenge to Roswell skeptics to point out the Bessy Brazel/Mack Brazel "flower tape" in the photos there since it should be clearly visible, if this indeed was what was found at Roswell and described by Brazel. But nobody has ever been able to find it, including the USAF in 1994 who employed some unnamed high level photoanalysis lab to examine the photos for exactly that. Where did it go?

In reality, there were no unaccounted for Moguls, certainly no Flight #4, which the USAF counterintelligence debunkers (a unit of AFOSI at the Pentagon) claimed accounted for Roswell. Mogul documents and official flight histories of NASA and the USAF instead list Flight #5 as being the first N.M. Mogul flight, not the fictitious #4, which instead was clearly canceled the previous day because of cloudy weather. The USAF and Mogul engineer Charles Moore made up the balloon flight to try to "explain" Roswell, just like they did with Flights #2 & #3, two other flights clearly documented as never having flown, but brought back from the dead by the USAF and Moore to try to make a case for Mogul explaining Roswell.

Bottom line is a nonexistent, fabricated balloon flight cannot possibly explain anything. Mogul is nothing but a slightly dressed up version of the original Ramey singular weather balloon/radar target cover story. Later both Marcel and Ramey's chief of staff Brig. Gen. Thomas Dubose (also pictured in the Fort Worth photos) confirmed the balloon debris in the photos was nothing but a cover story to get rid of the press. You can read various Gen. Dubose comments about the coverup here:

Brig. Gen. Thomas Dubose
 
@drudiak - nice piece well written. some of this info is new to me and most welcome. i don't pretend to have all the answers for roswell but i am very sure that i do not buy the mogul balloon theory one iota!

this is a great example of why the paracast forums are so usefull. a fantastic place for exchanging ideas and information and a place to ask and have answered, questions.
 
The Roswell story officially begins with one indisputable and puzzling fact: Someone at high levels associated with one of America's most elite military units issued an order to release the "recovered disk" story to the media. We can trace theories in numerous directions from there. But the fact that such an attention-grabbing move was even made must be highly curious. It suggests something of high value, either real or perceived, was at stake.
 
Getting back to a true enigma, James W. Moseley...
When asked about what Government agencies received Saucer Smear, Jim didn't seem aware of any, but his old Saucer News was closely watched by the staff of the U. S. Air Force's' Project Blue Book.
Check the link for examples:

Also, here's a story about the "pitted windshield" plague that Jim talked about. It was speculated to have been caused by Flying Saucers:​
 
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