James Carrion resurfaces at C.U.T.

[trainedobserver]

The former International Director for MUFON has a new organization. I don't recall how I stumbled on The Center for UFO Truth. There isn't much up there right now.

 

[Ron Collins]

They closed down the link. I can't get it to open.

 

[Keiko]

Billy Cox wrote an article about this http://devoid.blogs.heraldtribune.com/11013/a-lone-rider-goes-over-the-hills/

Apparently he now thinks all UFOs are “an intelligence operation by the United States and its allies during the Cold War and that intelligence agencies continue to promote the UFO myth for national security reasons.”

Hmmm...a curious change of perspective from the ex-head of MUFON!

 

[Ron Collins]

Billy Cox wrote an article about this http://devoid.blogs.heraldtribune.com/11013/a-lone-rider-goes-over-the-hills/

Apparently he now thinks all UFOs are “an intelligence operation by the United States and its allies during the Cold War and that intelligence agencies continue to promote the UFO myth for national security reasons.”

Hmmm...a curious change of perspective from the ex-head of MUFON!

Don't forget that he was also in Military Intelligence while in the Army.

 

[Keiko]

Don't forget that he was also in Military Intelligence while in the Army.

Well to quote from Alice in wonderland... "Curiouser and curiouser!"

 

[trainedobserver]

They closed down the link. I can't get it to open.

Still works for me Ron.

 

[Ron Collins]

Still works for me Ron.

Works now for me too. Not sure what it was.


Well, to comment on Carrions post i would say it is definitely worth a read. Perhaps the most damning thing an ex-MUFON head could say has been said. "If there is a real phenomenon, I have yet to see any evidence of it that would stand under scientific scrutiny." That is pretty damning and most certainly fodder for the debunking crowd. Of course he came to this conclusion by analyzing 6 cases he says. But he only lists 5 cases. I guess we will have to wonder about the 6th one.

1) Kinross -- 1953
2) Portage Ohio -- 1966 specifically the new physical evidence asserted by Michael Nelson.
3) California Drones
4) Stan Romanek
5) Skinwalker Ranch stuff from Dr. Frank Salisbury

So there you have it. He chose these cases to look into and these convinced him that it was all bunk. In fact he does now think it is all an intelligence smoke screen to expose moles, confuse the enemy, and redirect the attentions of the public. I think that is an interesting notion and should be explored but I think that it is ultimately flawed as an all encompassing answer. He certainly, I think we can agree, picked bad cases to look into. That is kind of irritating as he and the debunking crowd will now point to them as if they were the best cases Ufology had to offer. Plus, regarding the Portage ohio case, he is essentially using his issues with the research of Michael Nelson to invalidate the entire case. Somewhat the same thing regarding the Skinwalker Ranch stuff.

A quick note on Michael Nelson. I was at this particular symposium and he stated no less that 10 times that he was vary new at this sort of investigation and did not want to continue with it. He was a cop for only a short time while in school. He is, if memory serves, an archeologist specializing in Sumerian and Assyrian. As you would figure he was inundated with Sitchen questions at the breaks and he seemed completely unaware of Sitchen or his theories but had heard something of Von Daniken. He also made a plea for a "Real Researcher" to contact him so that he could hand off the investigation. He only began it because of a sense of kinship with these fellow officers after he had found out the paths their lives took as a direct result of that night. He wanted some sort of vindication that they were not easily duped into following Venus.

I dunno what to think about Carrion. His blog post is worth a read as is the link to the report he made for the MUFON journal. I thnk I need to read them again in order to really settle on my feelings. But for now it is tough for me to get past his choice of cases to study.

 

[Paul Kimball]

1) Kinross -- 1953
2) Portage Ohio -- 1966 specifically the new physical evidence asserted by Michael Nelson.
3) California Drones
4) Stan Romanek
5) Skinwalker Ranch stuff from Dr. Frank Salisbury

Carrion is as out to lunch at the die-hard ETH believers.

1. RB47
2. Kelly Johnson sighting
3. Tehran 1976
4. Shag Harbour
5. Levelland

I'm not saying that any of those point to a particular explanation, but they don't fit an intel-oriented explanation. Besides, if you're coming to your conclusions about the UFO phenomenon based on "cases" like Romanek then you're part of the problem, not part of the solution.

 

[Kieran]

Don't forget that he was also in Military Intelligence while in the Army.

Before he left MUFON. There was rumours circulating among members of MUFON. That Carrion was still active with Military intelligence. Some members claim he was pushed out? Some members claim. He left for Family reasons. And Carrion in his final address before leaving gave family reasons as being one cause of him leaving.

He is a smart man, i heard him on the Paracast. But there is something Fishy about him. I said it back then, when he appeared on the Paracast. Now my feeling back then might not be wrong after all?

Those cases he reviewed are terrible, and like i said Caririon is not an idiot. He knew full well what he was doing!! Maybe he is just bitter about how he was treated at MUFON? and is trying to get a reaction by doing this?

 

[Trajanus]

Before he left MUFON. There was rumours circulating among members of MUFON. That Carrion was still active with Military intelligence.

That would explain a lot. He speaks of government intel and deception; I don't doubt there's a good deal of it, and he's a prime example. His goal is to debunk the whole field. Of course it won't work on people here but it mght fool a lot of the public.

But there is something Fishy about him. I said it back then, when he appeared on the Paracast. Now my feeling back then might not be wrong after all?

Good instincts.

Those cases he reviewed are terrible

I don't think Kinross is bad (of course no physical evidence) but the others...

and like i said Caririon is not an idiot. He knew full well what he was doing!! Maybe he is just bitter about how he was treated at MUFON?

He still posts his stuff on their discussion board, and is a forum mod.....

---------- Post added at 01:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:02 PM ----------

Apparently he now thinks all UFOs are “an intelligence operation by the United States and its allies during the Cold War

That's absolutely crazy.

and that intelligence agencies continue to promote the UFO myth for national security reasons.”

Then why the debunking?

 

[Xylo]

I'm not really sure what Carrion is doing here. While he may find that a few cases were perpetrated by various governments and agencies within, there are a good number of cases for which the governmental hypothesis (GH) just won't fit.

I just don't see where he is going with this, nor what he seeks to accomplish. He'd be better served to leave the field entirely IMO.

 

[Trajanus]

I'm not really sure what Carrion is doing here. While he may find that a few cases were perpetrated by various governments and agencies within

Including Kinross? They killed Moncla and Wilson as part of some deceptive scheme?:frown:

there are a good number of cases for which the governmental hypothesis (GH) just won't fit.

I'll say.

I just don't see where he is going with this, nor what he seeks to accomplish.

The same thing the government has tried to accomplish all along--debunk the whole field.

 

[Sean Elifritz]

One of the funny things about the UFO field is that so many people simply can't except that there can be a lot of mistaken and self-motivated bs artists in the world. Is it so impossible that someone like Romanek does what he does not because he has been told to do so by the government but because of greed and a desire for attention? Is it also not possible that someone like Michael Salla is loopy just because he is rather than working for some shady disinformation outfit? All the time I see in this field allegations that someone must be a government stooge just because they appear to be wrong or a liar. C'mon, there's kzillions of reasons people can be full of it that have nothing to do with organized disinformation campaigns. And what's ironic here is that Carrion will probably be called a government operative for calling everyone else government operatives. Around and round we go.

 

[trainedobserver]

One of the funny things about the UFO field is that so many people simply can't except that there can be a lot of mistaken and self-motivated bs artists in the world.

A great collection of those can be found on Project Camelot. My favorite BS/confidence artists has always been Dan Burisch/Cain or whatever his name is now, he has changed it a couple or three times. He is absolutely comical to the point of tearful hilarity. The down side is that he and his wife have a following of true believers who undoubtedly donate money to them and their bogus research projects. They are both apparently ex or current casino workers in Vegas.

 

[Trajanus]

One of the funny things about the UFO field is that so many people simply can't except that there can be a lot of mistaken and self-motivated bs artists in the world. Is it so impossible that someone like Romanek does what he does not because he has been told to do so by the government

I'm unaware of any such claim.

Is it also not possible that someone like Michael Salla is loopy just because he is rather than working for some shady disinformation outfit? All the time I see in this field allegations that someone must be a government stooge just because they appear to be wrong or a liar. C'mon, there's kzillions of reasons people can be full of it that have nothing to do with organized disinformation campaigns.

Yes indeed. Money is another obvious reason. If you can show that someone is making a bundle off of this, who needs uncle sam? But what often strikes me as very odd is why an outwardly intelligent person would make an ass of himself with looney claims of aliens which are often easy to tear apart, if there is no obvious motive of this kind i.e. no publicly visible payoff?

And what's ironic here is that Carrion will probably be called a government operative for calling everyone else government operatives.

If that's what he is, it can help his purpose, make him more believable, by appearing to be an enemy of those "operatives."

 

[Michael Allen]

2) Portage Ohio -- 1966 specifically the new physical evidence asserted by Michael Nelson.

Ironic that this case would be evidence for an intelligence "smoke screen" explanation. It actually shows the opposite...

 

[Michael Allen]

I think its pretty obvious that GH is indefensible to all but the most schizophrenic individuals. That kind of position is easily overthrown with a cursory reading of volume one of Richard Hall's "The UFO Evidence." GH and the usage of "UFOs" to spread disinformation does not corroborate with the many documented attempts to close the lid on UFO hysteria. If anyone thought that was a justifiable method of misdirection during the height of the cold war, then (borrowing Knapp's expression) someone "should have had their ass spanked."

Several Reasons

(1) Hoaxes increase public attention curiosity with the U.S. government's role, not to mention the high-security installations\bases.
(2) Creating hoaxes would increase public hysteria and attention to the skies, increased calls to authorities, statesman, officials, etc could clog the information lines.
(3) Some thought the contactee cases were basically part of a Soviet psi-ops campaign.

And finally, you cant cherry-pick 5-6 cases to prove your own beleaguered hypothesis--esp. if those cases actually show the opposite!

 

[Trajanus]

GH and the usage of "UFOs" to spread disinformation does not corroborate with the many documented attempts to close the lid on UFO hysteria.

Exacty the point I made earlier. Why would they simultaneously debunk what they've supposedly created?

(1) Hoaxes increase public attention curiosity with the U.S. government's role, not to mention the high-security installations\bases.
(2) Creating hoaxes would increase public hysteria and attention to the skies, increased calls to authorities, statesman, officials, etc could clog the information lines.

As the Robertson panel warned. The whole GH idea is lunacy. Look at the incredible flight characteristics of UFOs, and queer humanoid reports. Not too many government agents could pass themselves off for insectoids.

 

[Paul Kimball]

I think its pretty obvious that GH is indefensible to all but the most schizophrenic individuals. That kind of position is easily overthrown with a cursory reading of volume one of Richard Hall's "The UFO Evidence." GH and the usage of "UFOs" to spread disinformation does not corroborate with the many documented attempts to close the lid on UFO hysteria. If anyone thought that was a justifiable method of misdirection during the height of the cold war, then (borrowing Knapp's expression) someone "should have had their ass spanked."

Several Reasons

(1) Hoaxes increase public attention curiosity with the U.S. government's role, not to mention the high-security installations\bases.
(2) Creating hoaxes would increase public hysteria and attention to the skies, increased calls to authorities, statesman, officials, etc could clog the information lines.
(3) Some thought the contactee cases were basically part of a Soviet psi-ops campaign.

I disagree in part.

There is absolutely no question that governments, particularly the United States government, has used the UFO phenomenon as a smokescreen for its own secret projects, and for other purposes related to intelligence gathering. Anyone who thinks otherwise is hopelessly naive, and doesn't have a grasp on the history of the subject. More than a few cases in Hall's work are most likely explainable as one or the other.

However, to say that the "GH" is the only explanation is patently absurd.

Paul

 

[trainedobserver]

However, to say that the "GH" is the only explanation is patently absurd.

It is difficult to imagine a scenario where there is only one hypothesis (a UH -Unified Hypotheses ) that explains everything about the phenomena. I have always suspected that we have yet to actually imagine what the true explanation actually might be. IMHO the truth is probably stranger than we can actually imagine.