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Friedman and Alexander



Randall

J. Randall Murphy
Questions for Friedman & Alexander DEBATE: UFO secrecy

Ok, sounds like a good idea. What are the assumptions here? Aliens have visited Earth in the past. Aliens are visiting now.


Yes. That's why I set those parameters out to begin with. Without them it's a pointless excercise. I use them because Alexander doesn't deny that UFOs ( alien craft ) are or have been here, only that nobody is investigating them. The rest of what I had posted is with respect to that assumption.

If however UFOs ( alien craft ) are no longer comng here, or if they are here and there is some Global diplomatic agreement with them ( which I doubt ), then either way, I could see the whole UFO situation being much more relaxed, perhaps the way Alexander describes it.

The thing is, we can be sure that at one point they were here. We also know that at one point there was a serious investigative effort underway to figure out what they were ( Sign, Grudge, Blue Book etc. ). We also have clues about the unseen high secrecy stuff that bypassed those projects. But we don't really know where that stuff went or what it contains.

So the bottom line is that UFOs ( alien craft ) were here and somebody was investigating them. Then it all went black and we've rarely heard anything from the military since. What happened to all the documents that bypassed Blue Book that affected national security? What happened to the films that were sent to the Pentagon never to be seen again? By now they should be old enough to be released without affecting any national security. All the aircraft and people are retired. It's old news. So why is it still being hidden away? These aren't assumptions. We know from FOIA requests that documents exist but are still exempt from disclosure or have been all blacked out.

My latest fear is that the UFOs ( alien craft ) are actually gone. They were here for a while to check us out and have since moved on, leaving this incredible time in human history locked away by bureaucrats and politicians until it rots away into nothing more than mythology.
 

trainedobserver

Paranormally Disenchanted
Questions for Friedman & Alexander DEBATE: UFO secrecy

...So the bottom line is that UFOs ( alien craft ) were here and somebody was investigating them. Then it all went black and we've rarely heard anything from the military since. What happened to all the documents that bypassed Blue Book that affected national security? What happened to the films that were sent to the Pentagon never to be seen again?...

The pattern of changing names and morphing the investigation may indicate that all of the good stuff got passed on to Project X or whatever it became next. Maybe they wound in up in a vault never to be seen again. Who can really say? Apparently, if this UFO investigative entity exists its a secret Alexander couldn't crack and appears to be a secret from the rest of the government as well.

Here is something else I would like you to consider though, because I think it is something that has far reaching implications and should (IMHO) color any hypothesis developed concerning UFOs. If aliens have been visiting the Earth for 100s or 1000s of years as many believe the evidence indicates, there is a very real possibility that they have long ago infiltrated human society and have been influencing our perception of their activities throughout history, among other things, and continue to do so. There are any number of ways that could be done, which I'll leave up to your imagination.

My latest fear is that the UFOs ( alien craft ) are actually gone. They were here for a while to check us out and have since moved on, leaving this incredible time in human history locked away by bureaucrats and politicians until it rots away into nothing more than mythology.

I'm surprised to see you say something like that. I don't think there is any indication that the activity has slowed down, stopped, or made a significant change in M.O.
 

Ezechiel

Paranormal Adept
Questions for Friedman & Alexander DEBATE: UFO secrecy

Great show... probably the best ever. Complementary guests poking into each others world.

What transpires after listening to two intelligent, highly educated guys that actually invested serious time and risked their reputation in the UAP/UFO subject:

The phenomenon is a real phenomenon. (We can see them eyes/radar/physical traces... etc.)
The phenomenon is rare. (They don't want to contaminate our ecosystem ?)
The phenomenon does not seem to interfere with human day-to-day operations. (We are being observed, quarantined ? Friedman)
There are no governments on the planet that can currently interfere with these phenomenal apparitions. (The idea that they are in control and not us)

Since the phenomenon allows humans to operate on this planet and we haven't been exterminated, most governments ignore the issue (sends the weird stuff to the US), throw a tarp over it hoping we can continue to exist. This idea would be consistent with Alexanders views and experience which cover 99% of government operations.

However, humans are curious by nature. Friedman taps into the need-to-know 1% zone. It is logically inconceivable that no resources are allocated to examine documented multi-witness events leaving radar tracks... especially in high-stress terrorist or cold-war environments. Information is power.... not to mention the potential benefit to any government that is able to extract useful technology or be inspired by the shape or periodic table alloys that make up these craft.

I suspect that after WWII, most western countries supplied the US (leader of the free world) with documentation and possibly physical items that they thought were technological efforts from communist countries but were in fact of alien origin. All this stuff should be under a heavy lid somewhere in the US ;)

Apparently Einstein and some scientists sent the following message to Truman in 1952 (year of the Capital overflight):

If these aliens can travel across the galaxy to come here, they surely can take care of themselves. we would recommend not to try shooting at them.

Some say Einstein was terrified with the idea of alien visits. Would make for some interesting research.
 

trainedobserver

Paranormally Disenchanted
Questions for Friedman & Alexander DEBATE: UFO secrecy

Some say Einstein was terrified with the idea of alien visits.

It should terrify everyone who seriously considers it a possibility. The foolish notion that being discovered by an extra-terrestrial civilization would be a positive affair for human society ignores common sense and history. It relies on wishful thinking and the hope that human philosophical ideals would be shared or realized by extra-terrestrials. There is no reason whatsoever to think, hope, or expect that to be an eventuality.
 

Ezechiel

Paranormal Adept
Questions for Friedman & Alexander DEBATE: UFO secrecy

It should terrify everyone who seriously considers it a possibility. The foolish notion that being discovered by an extra-terrestrial civilization would be a positive affair for human society ignores common sense and history. It relies on wishful thinking and the hope that human philosophical ideals would be shared or realized by extra-terrestrials. There is no reason whatsoever to think, hope, or expect that to be an eventuality.

When we are able to capture these critters on a regular basis, that's when the trouble should start. IMHO, technological parity with alien visitors either leads to dialogue or all out war. Friedman would call it: 'breaking out of the quarantine' lol
 

trainedobserver

Paranormally Disenchanted
Questions for Friedman & Alexander DEBATE: UFO secrecy

When we are able to capture these critters on a regular basis, that's when the trouble should start. IMHO, technological parity with alien visitors either leads to dialogue or all out war. Friedman would call it: 'breaking out of the quarantine' lol

Technological parity would probably not be allowed to occur. If they have visited for 100s or 1000s of years, have infiltrated human society and they influence our perception of them they most likely manage any technological threats proactively. This is just one of the many unpleasant implications of alien visitation occurring throughout human history.
 

Ezechiel

Paranormal Adept
Questions for Friedman & Alexander DEBATE: UFO secrecy

Technological parity would probably not be allowed to occur. If they have visited for 100s or 1000s of years, have infiltrated human society and they influence our perception of them they most likely manage any technological threats proactively. This is just one of the many unpleasant implications of alien visitation occurring throughout human history.

Not sure we could catch up to civilizations that are way beyond us, even if we wanted, unless they were affected by some cosmic cataclysm. However as we evolve and progress towards star faring civilization status, we should statistically meet a few civilizations from nearby star systems at close to technological par with us where some potentially dangerous exchanges become possible. I certainly wouldn't put all aliens in the same basket and tag them as way beyond humans. I'm not sure it's reasonable to think there is only one or two civilizations roaming around given the wide variety of observed behaviors, shapes and build.

A civilization way beyond us will always have the upper hand but somehow has the decency not to destroy sentient life forms here. Don't forget also that a flock of geese is able to bring down a jet... there's always a possibility of catching odd over the top technologies by accident ;)
 

trainedobserver

Paranormally Disenchanted
Questions for Friedman & Alexander DEBATE: UFO secrecy

I don't buy it.

Tyder,

That is to be expected. Alien abductees such as yourself and Angelo have been programmed via implants, traumatic probing, and alien super-hypnotism to deny the existence of the alien occupation. Tsk, tsk.
 

Ezechiel

Paranormal Adept
Questions for Friedman & Alexander DEBATE: UFO secrecy

I don't buy it.

To buy this you need the following:

Believe that life can evolve on other planets similar to earth. (We ain't there yet)
Believe that sentient life evolved earlier in other star systems (This one is a a religious challenge)
Believe travel beyond light speed is possible (see Neutrinos... still unproven and defies Einsteins standard model)
Understand that planet earth is older than 6000 years (Hard sell in some regions lol... but mostly accepted by all)
Have faith that quantum model could offer solutions... and that our understanding of 'time' is incomplete.

This is definitely a very hard sell at this time... but science usually has this bad habit of destroying known barriers. The earth used to be flat.

One thing this phenomenon does is inspire possibilities and maybe direct science into unexplored avenues ;)
 

Ron Collins

Curiously Confused
Questions for Friedman & Alexander DEBATE: UFO secrecy

I am still listening to the show from this week. I have a full page of notes and whatnot so far. Its going to take time to put down all my thoughts about this. I just wanted to bring up 2 things really quick.

1 -- I am fast becoming a huge John Alexander fan.
2 -- I have been doing military technology and application research for years. I have recently been reading and reviewing a bunch of technical documents surrounding imaging satellites. I think the initial discussion regarding spy satellites was super interesting in that both guys got it wrong. The technology isn't the hard part. We have satellites in geosynchronous orbit with wide/narrow/super narrow lenses capable of sending images/video with enough granularity to distinguish type face on a sheet of paper. The problems come less from technology and more from logistical, procedural, and legal perspectives.

Logistically, these satellites would be in geosynchronous orbit over areas of interest abroad. In todays world that would be North Africa, the Baltic regions, the middle east, India, and Asia. I would imagine that it would take significant time and resources to reposition the satellite to point to a specific city. This would have to be done far in advance of an operation. In fact the military and DARPA funded what became the Global Hawk specifically to address ad-hoc operational surveillance needs. The Global Hawk platform is fitted with a range of equipment to handle most surveillance tasks and can accommodate a mission specific load out if it is really needed. Its mobility, which allows for rapid image collection angle changes, and its ability to send data directly to ground assets make it a far superior platform for that type of surveillance. Satellites are good for taking images or video when you want no chance of the target/s knowing that they are being watched. The trade offs are time on station, image collection angles, and how rapidly information flows to local assets. knowing the technical limitations of each technology allows you to better understand which would be more effectively leveraged in a given scenario. Though both are sufficiently equipped to find, locate, and direct ground assets the Global Hawk platform was specifically designed for this while it is a "value add" for a satellite.

Procedurally, the assignment of what satellites looks for and what it looks at is controlled by a tight bureaucracy laden with authorizations, budget allocations, target product hierarchies, and scheduled collection efforts. In short, moving a satellite off a scheduled mission is a big freakin deal. All this translates into no possible chance that it is done with anything approaching rapidity.

Legally, I doubt looking down on a US city at a US citizen is even legal. The CIA are forbidden to do so by mandate. At any rate there would have to be a mountain of documented reasons for the undertaking. I mention this as an addendum to the above. In the movie it was a unilateral decision. In reality, no part of that process is unilateral... unless, I would wager, your the President.

I just thought it was interesting that while I agree that the given scenario was fanciful, it was from completely different point of view.
 

tyder001

Paranormal Adept
Questions for Friedman & Alexander DEBATE: UFO secrecy

I believe life could evolve in other systems. I just haven't seen anything that makes me think it is visiting here. :)
I am not a young earth creationist.
Religion needs to grow up. I recently read a very thoughtful exchange between an evangelical author and a gay Christian. Of course the author was kind of progressive and might not be an "evangelical" much longer. But, I digress.
I am not religiously or intellectually offended by the idea of alien visitation. I just don't see anything that has convinced me of it. There may be other life out there. We may find it one day or it may find us. I do find the ancient alien (not the mess by the big haired dude on the history channel) facsinating. Especially as it pertains to the genisis of religion and civilization. But, I'm afraid I view the ufo question more from a pop culture "ain't this fun?" posistion than a really serious one. But, Ya never know. I'm still willing to allow wonder in life. :cool:
 

Jeff Crowell

Paranormal Annoyance
Questions for Friedman & Alexander DEBATE: UFO secrecy

To buy this you need the following:

Believe that life can evolve on other planets similar to earth. (We ain't there yet)
Believe that sentient life evolved earlier in other star systems (This one is a a religious challenge)
Believe travel beyond light speed is possible (see Neutrinos... still unproven and defies Einsteins standard model)
Understand that planet earth is older than 6000 years (Hard sell in some regions lol... but mostly accepted by all)
Have faith that quantum model could offer solutions... and that our understanding of 'time' is incomplete.

On a point-by-point basis...
1. "similar" evolution is still pretty wide-scale considering our science is just now accepting that life can evolve from different elements altogether (such as arsenic instead of carbon, etc...)
2. The Earth being round was a religious challenge. Direct, observational measurements of our solar system, galaxy, and universe show it's several (14 or so) billion years old based on our limited time scale. Let the religious nuts rant on that one, it can be proven which indicates either A. the religious nuts have it wrong, or B. God created the universe to appear one way then told us humans it's actaully a different way, which implies God is deceptive. I doubt the religious nuts will like that very much.
3. All sorts of hypothetical ideas could explain the vast, raw distances that would need to be traversed by an alien species coming from some far-off star. Most of them break Einstein's model but that doesn't make them any less possible based on recent knowledge.
4. Earth is clearly older than 6,000 years and can be proven(see point 2 above).
5. I do have 'faith' in the quantum model, myself, but also understand that it's a theory at this point. So much of quantum mechanics is mathematical theory it's not funny, and a lot of people tout it as if it's law. That's a dangerous thing to do with something that's still more calculation than practical application.

My 2 pennies.
 

tyder001

Paranormal Adept
Questions for Friedman & Alexander DEBATE: UFO secrecy

Funny thing is when I first started to read the bible, I found it to say something different than the religious teachers of my youth were saying. Then I started to realize that it was a "collection" of writings over many, many years that were first handed down orally and not written. Then I got older and understood that the "bible" was pretty much put together as "canon" by a religious political organization. Of course they didn't write it. But, they did interpret it for the great unwashed. :) In my later years there are moments when a favorite scripture from my youth will comfort me or inspire me. I no longer see it as "the" word of God. But, I do find the word of God in it. As I do in the ocean and the stars and my own eyes. I also remember a verse talking about God sitting on the "circle" of the earth so it wasn't totally written by ignorant savages. :) Also, (forgive the off topic part here) I read a very well written article by a gay man the other day. He has managed (as have I, although I'm not gay) to hold on to the core of his faith and hope while understanding the flaw in dogma. So, some of us are not young earth creationist or bible thumping idiots but we still find a "use" for some of the old religious traditions. Still, I can't go back to my evangelical bible thumping religion of youth. Don't want to. Don't intend to. But, religion gets a bad name these days. I know it's earned it for the most part. But, I don't think most of the people who call themselves Christian or Muslim or Jew are wild eyed fanatics just waiting to kill civilization. Some of us are hopeful and even agnostic and are still following along on the journey as best we can. Peace. 8)
 

boomerang

Paranormal Adept
Questions for Friedman & Alexander DEBATE: UFO secrecy

The number of jumping off points to be found in this program could keep us happily busy for a long time.

Alexander and Friedman's exchange re the MJ papers was especially good. I take it Alexander admits a certain small number of the MJ documents are authentic, but not relevant to the ufo topic? That in itself would seem a minor breakthrough. Friedman's revelations about Menzel's life and character were thought provoking. If true, the good Dr. Menzel comes off as a fascinating character. I'm again reminded of how compartmentalized the lives of brilliant people can be.

I always love listening to Alexander because he is such an enigma. He is obviously sharp and seemingly well informed, but smoothly contradicts himself. (intentionally?) His implied message is typically: "Be very afraid of what I know exists. Now move along and don't ask." Then he seems to have reversed this stance here (I have not yet read his book). When he says, for instance, the government has "no department of good ideas", what are we to think? It would seem to have scads of them. In fact, he claims to have worked for them! He's an interesting guy. Also, both his and Friedman's observations on Corso and on the Cash Landrum incident were interesting.

I was sort of hoping Friedman would quiz Alexander with a few well documented instances of government operatives impounding ufo evidence. The Gordon Cooper film clip comes to mind. As does the former FAA exec (name eludes me) whose radar tapes and other evidence were confiscated by polite men in suits.

I would love to see either or both of these fine gentlemen back in the future! (no pun intended)
 

Terjarv

Skilled Investigator
Questions for Friedman & Alexander DEBATE: UFO secrecy

Awesome show guys, great work.

---------- Post added at 11:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:43 AM ----------

I just want to say that Gene's suggestion of the creation of stantonfriedmanXXX.com conjures for me an mental image more disturbing than my gentle sensibilities can process without inducing a full-body shudder. :eek:

Haven't you learned to prevent yourself from visualizing dirty jokes?
 

red_pill_junkie

Paranormal Adept
In case you haven't done so, then you should definitely check out the Radio Misterioso interview that Greg Bishop conducted with Grant Cameron.

In it, Cameron makes a few points that would suggest Alexander is not the thorough government insider he claims to be (jump to min 38:00).

But all in all, a very enjoyable show. More so because of the fact that both gentlemen were able to keep their disagreements in very civil terms, so kudos to Stan and John for showing the way discussions should be had around the UFO community.
 
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