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Consciousness and the Paranormal — Part 12

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"I think therefore I am" seems to have resolved that question neatly.
Resolved by the very mechanism that allowed the question to arise within the unknown entity we are questioning to begin with? Maybe it is just a step on a ladder to nowhere (pardon the analogy)....the very steps that lead the witness to questioning has already provided the background answer before the question was "understood" ...in doing so you provide a timeline or "epic" that circles back on itself and asks the basic question that lay under it's own ability to question and to "feel" a kind of "answer"....the mechanism of thought when turned to itself will break down into elements which are fundamentally unthinkable
 
@oddyseen, may I ask where or by whom you have been instructed in your ideas and convictions? You seem to believe that we are in what fundamentalists think of as 'the end of days', and moreover to believe that you are personally obligated to authorize, to encourage, and even to commit acts of genocide, which you believe to be authorized by an irrational and murderous 'God'. What if what you believe is entirely false? What if what you encourage and perhaps actually intend to do is in fact a scourge against humanity and indeed all forms of life?
 
Resolved by the very mechanism that allowed the question to arise within the unknown entity we are questioning to begin with? Maybe it is just a step on a ladder to nowhere (pardon the analogy)....the very steps that lead the witness to questioning has already provided the background answer before the question was "understood" ...in doing so you provide a timeline or "epic" that circles back on itself and asks the basic question that lay under it's own ability to question and to "feel" a kind of "answer"....the mechanism of thought when turned to itself will break down into elements which are fundamentally unthinkable

Huh?
 

I am not one for confrontation ... but I sense a little confusion and perhaps a bit of a reproach for my very wine-induced comment. You rightly answer with "huh" ...perhaps I should go back to the basics? Maybe I will understand the foundation of consciousness by spinning webs that only a member of such a group (i.e. those who "have" consciousness possess...as if the analogy of "ownership" completed the subject's understanding of the same) could generate? I think not ...or at least my "feeling" is that such self-examination will fail to explain the foundations that allowed such terms to exist in our "minds" in the first place.

I don't have your background, Constance...so bear with me :)
 
I am not one for confrontation ... but I sense a little confusion and perhaps a bit of a reproach for my very wine-induced comment. You rightly answer with "huh" ...perhaps I should go back to the basics? Maybe I will understand the foundation of consciousness by spinning webs that only a member of such a group (i.e. those who "have" consciousness possess...as if the analogy of "ownership" completed the subject's understanding of the same) could generate? I think not ...or at least my "feeling" is that such self-examination will fail to explain the foundations that allowed such terms to exist in our "minds" in the first place.

I don't have your background, Constance...so bear with me :)

Don't worry about it, Michael. My "Huh?" was just signalling my inability to follow your labyrinthine post. Since you've read some phenomenological philosophy, I wonder why you do not seem to agree that what we become capable of thinking originates in, sprouts upward from, that which we experience in the grounding of our sensed existence in a sensible and tangible, if not wholly comprehensible, world.
 
I'll wait to see what else you add, but in the meantime I see no connections to be made in your references to a Dogon symbol, the extent of nuclear armamentation around the planet, and the notion that God directed Moses to commit genocide. Indeed Moses reported the opposite in the commandment "Thou shalt not kill."

"tramSTOPdan" = (eliminate genetic dan following old testament cyclical behavior in giving the gospel....that means that geographic area) (God may not do any killing, but has appointed Moses to make the decision and to carry it out) (this will be done before the end of the year following activation) (as soon as possible)

I still want to know who has implanted notions like this in your head. Can/would you answer that question?
 
Don't worry about it, Michael. My "Huh?" was just signalling my inability to follow your labyrinthine post. Since you've read some phenomenological philosophy, I wonder why you do not seem to agree that what we become capable of thinking originates in, sprouts upward from, that which we experience in the grounding of our sensed existence in a sensible and tangible, if not wholly comprehensible, world.

Funny..did I come off as saying the opposite (of your state summary thesis above)? I think I agree wholehearteldy in what you have just said in the above. The harder part is the huge asterisks that must be placed next to the *we, *sprouts, *upward, *existence, *sensible/*tangible and *comprehensible components of your summary. My point is to say that the entire framework which allows these concepts to arise in the mind are in fact a product of a framework which encompasses the entire relations and connections between the realities that underlie these very terms. I have no problem agreeing with a truism...but I must always ask about the almost unthinkable figure/grounding which allows these very words to fool us into thinking we have adequately "groked" the foundation of our ability to "grok"... Thus it really just boils down to the same old mantra I've been throwing into this discussion all along: how many pins can dance on the head of a pin.

:)
 
. . . I must always ask about the almost unthinkable figure/grounding which allows these very words to fool us into thinking we have adequately "groked" the foundation of our ability to "grok"... Thus it really just boils down to the same old mantra I've been throwing into this discussion all along: how many pins can dance on the head of a pin.

Shocked, I must admit, at how little you seem to feel your own existential reality in the situation available to us in our condition of being embodied
consciousnesses and minds. I can't identify with what you call "the almost unthinkable figure/grounding" that enables us to assume the weight of our consciousness of self, others, and world. Nor with your characterizing what we sense, feel, and think in our mutual existentially situated being in terms of "how many pins can dance on the head of a pin." Likely we will never see eye to eye. ;)
 
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Shocked, I must admit, at how little you seem to feel your own existential reality in the situation available to us in our condition of being embodied
consciousnesses and minds. I can't identify with what you call "the almost unthinkable figure/grounding" that enables us to assume the weight of our consciousness of self, others, and world. Nor with your characterizing what we sense, feel, and think in our mutual existentially situated being in terms of "how many pins can dance on the head of a pin." Likely we will never see eye to eye. ;)


(1) "shocked...how little you seem to feel your own existential reality"

On the contrary...I feel it immensely...which is why I put so many asterisks next to the words and componenets in the statements constructed by the very entity examined.

(2) "I can't identity with what you call 'the almost unthinkable figure/grounding..'"

That is to be expected. Identifying with the unthinkable is probably unthinkable.

(3) "Nor with your characterizing what we sense, feel and think in our mutually existentially situated being in terms of ..[insert my rather bad analogy here]

That is also to be expected. Analogies are formulated in a framework that encompasses the entire basis for a being to have the ability to think and formulate analogies...or bad ones...

So in a way I agree with everything you just said. Agreement happens in the same unthinkable framework that underlies the "existential engine of consciousness" Words constructed by this engine are always going to fall short.

PS...maybe we don't see "eye" to "eye"...but what about "ear" to "eye" or vice versa?
 
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(1) "shocked...how little you seem to feel your own existential reality"

On the contrary...I feel it immensely...which is why I put so many asterisks next to the words and componenets in the statements constructed by the very entity examined.

(2) "I can't identity with what you call 'the almost unthinkable figure/grounding..'"

That is to be expected. Identifying with the unthinkable is probably unthinkable.

Sorry to misunderstand what you've written, as I apparently have done. For me our existential situation is not 'unthinkable' nor a cause for anguish.

. . .

So in a way I agree with everything you just said. Agreement happens in the same unthinkable framework that underlies the "existential engine of consciousness" Words constructed by this engine are always going to fall short.

That's just it: I don't find our existential 'framework' to be 'unthinkable'. Nor do the phenomenologists, who have described it eloquently. It just is what it is, and leaves room for us to attempt to justify our lives in the ways in which we behave toward other living beings, in what we accept or reject in human society.


ps, have you read the later Heidegger concerning his concept of our Appropriation by Being to be the shepherds of being in our world?
 
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We should spend some time contemplating Husserl's hyletic data, the way in which we prereflectively absorb the intrinsic sense of our relatedness with the things we encounter and the gestalts within which we perceive them before we begin to reflect upon them in terms approaching conceptual thinking. Here is a paper that clarifies what Husserl means by "hyle" and its prereflective initiation of meaning out of our palpable and sensible contacts with the physical world we exist in -- experiences in which intentionality makes its first appearance prereflectively.

Kenneth Williford, "Husserl’s hyletic data and phenomenal consciousness"

Abstract: In the Logical Investigations, Ideas 1, and many other texts, Husserl maintains that perceptual consciousness involves the intentional “animation” or interpretation of sensory data or hyle, e.g., “color-data,” “tone-data,” and algedonic data. These data are not intrinsically representational nor are they normally themselves objects of representation, though we can attend to them in reflection. These data are
“immanent” in consciousness; they survive the phenomenological reduction. They partly ground the intuitive or
“in-the-flesh” aspect of perception, and they have a determinacy of character that we do not create but can only discover. This determinate, non-representational stratum of perceptual consciousness also serves as a bridge between consciousness and the world beyond it. I articulate and defend this conception of perceptual consciousness. I locate the view in the space of contemporary positions on phenomenal character and argue for its superiority. I close by briefly arguing that the Husserlian account is perfectly compatible with physicalism (this involves disarming the Grain Problem).

Keywords: Hyle . Qualia . Time-Consciousness . Representationalism . Sense data . The grain problem . Husserl . Phenomenal consciousness . Intentionality


"Introduction

Husserl held that perceptual consciousness involves the “marriage” of sensory matter (or “hyletic data")
and intentional, animating form.1 Suppose I suddenly feel a pressure encircling my arm. I might, depending on the context, immediately take these tactile data to present “someone grabbing my arm.” If so, I would be spontaneously “animating” them with this intentional or noematic content and paying little or no attention to the varying felt pressures themselves. These “felt pressures” are the sensory matter or hyletic data of this perception. Hyletic data, on the Husserlian view, do not themselves intentionally aim at or represent anything. But they are “brought to life” or imbued with intentional content, and thereby we see, hear, taste, smell, or feel them to present objects or states of affairs.

These data are supposed to account for what is literally presentational about perceptual experience; they are what differentiate seeing, say, a dog, live and in the flesh in front of you, from merely thinking of one. But we know of their difference from representational content not only because thoughts and perceptions with the same intentional objects are different, as the latter are presentational and the former are not. We know this also because the same hyletic data can be animated in a variety of ways. That is, their intentional correlates can differ while they remain the same. The exact same distribution of felt pressures encircling my arm, to continue the example, might, in quite different circumstances, be animated as the application of a tourniquet.

But this difference from representational content and this “inertia” should not immediately be taken to mean that hyletic data can, in principle, be animated in any way whatsoever. Husserl thought that there must be some sort of analogy or resemblance between the hyletic data fields, like the visual color spectrum, and the properties their animation allows us to represent, like the proper surface colors of physical objects.2
But synesthesia and the use of certain perceptual prostheses and techniques, like the use of forms of echolocation by the blind,3 raise difficult and unresolved questions about the relationship between hyletic data and the range of ways in which they can be animated, questions we will not attempt to resolve here.

Husserl maintained that there is good phenomenological evidence for hyletic data, even though we are not normally paying any attention to them as such. Although we do not objectify them prior to reflection, we are nevertheless conscious of them — we experience them. Experience itself is not normally objectified or attended to; nonetheless, experience is always experienced, it is “lived through” (erlebt).4

One classic phenomenological way of getting at this idea is by contrasting the way in which we experience physical objects with the way in which we experience our experience of them.5 The physical object is given to us over time via a sequence of profiles. We see the selfsame object from a multitude of positions. For every such position, we “live through” a different array of kinesthetic and hyletic data that we do not normally objectify or pay attention to. Different shades will flit across the surface of the object as one walks around it; its outline, qua appearance, will undergo the variations studied objectually in projective geometry; it will take up more or less of the visual field; one will have to crane the neck, squint, tilt the head, etc. The physical object gives itself ever inadequately through this multiplicity of profiles or adumbrations (Abshattungen).

This connects directly to time-consciousness. As I walk round a table, I retend (retain in “working memory”) the just-past profiles of the table and protend (hold in “working anticipation” and "emptily intend”) the upcoming profiles. And indeed, to see it as a table is to implicitly regard each profile as one of a series of more or less definite actual and possible adumbrations of the table — these are the “horizonal contents” that help to distinguish perceptual content from mere thought content.6 In the normal case, these anticipations are satisfied, and I am given no reason to revise my “perceptual hypothesis” that this is indeed a table I am seeing, though Husserl would not put it that way. If I were to make an explicit prediction about the underside of the table and were to look underneath and see what I predicted I would see, then, as Husserl would say, I would find a perception that fulfills a judgment and is perceptual evidence for the truth of my claim.7

By contrast, no profile gives itself through further profiles, though we do indeed experience them. And the profiles existentially depend on experience in a way that physical objects do not. A physical object is given as
continuing to be even if no one is looking at it. But my visual profile on the object is gone as soon as I close my eyes. And though the profile I get when I open them again a second later may be similar, it is a different token if only because of the passage of time. Profiles on objects, unlike the objects themselves, are, so to say, token-experience bound. They must be experienced to be and they are not, strictly speaking, repeatable, though, evidently, they do admit of various similarities to each other. Husserl held that these profiles on or adumbrations of an object generally fluctuate with fluctuations in hyletic data (see Ideas I §97; Husserl 1982, pp. 237– 238). Although we may consistently animate them as the visual presentation of the family dog, they are flowing through us moment by moment and disappear as we finish living them through. In a certain sense,their
esse is percipi, but the percipi is a nearly Heraclitean river. It is intentionality that allows us to get beyond this flux, but the price of intentionality is the perpetual possibility of error, hence the appropriateness of speaking of “perceptual hypotheses” even in the best of cases.

Hyletic data, and the acts that animate them, survive the phenomenological reduction.8 If something survives the reduction, it is immanent or really inherent in consciousness.9 These “immanental data” are not among the transcendent objects — the objects of representation — that get excluded or “placed in brackets.” They are part of the “phenomenological residuum” and thus part of the proper subject matter of Husserl's transcendental phenomenology. One thus attempts to study the hyletic data and the patterns of animation, regardless of the existence of the objects and states of affairs the animations aim at. The point of such a study need not be directly epistemological or metaphysical. It can be, among other things, to get us to think about consciousness at the appropriate level of generality and abstraction. . . ."

continue at:

https://www.academia.edu/34100318/Husserls_hyletic_data_and_phenomenal_consciousness


{ps, this guy is really good.}
 
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I don’t have time to comment on this other than to say it relates to the generative, predictive, counterfactual nature of consciousness.
 
We should spend some time contemplating Husserl's hyletic data, the way in which we prereflectively absorb the intrinsic sense of our relatedness with the things we encounter and the gestalts within which we perceive them before we begin to reflect upon them in terms approaching conceptual thinking ... Hyletic data, and the acts that animate them, survive the phenomenological reduction.8 If something survives the reduction, it is immanent or really inherent in consciousness ...
Very interesting, but perhaps unnecessarily complex. Maybe a good idea to review the following link in relation to the paper:

https://www.iep.utm.edu/phen-red/

It seems to me that if the exercise is to question our assumptions about the truth ( "the case" ) of a situation, that engaging in deep meditation may not be necessary. For example, all we need to do is find an exception to our assumptions about the situation. Not that I'm opposed to meditation. It's just that in some cases it might be taking the long slow way around. For example with "hyletic data" ( synonymous with qualia ) such as color, we might assume that it is the case that a Ferrari is red, because we see it as such. To find the exception, we only need ask the question, does everyone see it as red? Clearly our knowledge of color-blindness means that we can answer that question with a "No".
 
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Very interesting, but perhaps unnecessarily complex. Maybe a good idea to review the following link in relation to the paper:

https://www.iep.utm.edu/phen-red/

It seems to me that if the exercise is to question our assumptions about the truth ( "the case" ) of a situation, that engaging in deep meditation may not be necessary. For example, all we need to do is find an exception to our assumptions about the situation. Not that I'm opposed to meditation. It's just that in some cases it might be taking the long slow way around. For example with "hyletic data" ( synonymous with qualia ) such as color, we might assume that it is the case that a Ferrari is red, because we see it as such. To find the exception, we only need ask the question, does everyone see it as red? Clearly our knowledge of color-blindness means that we can answer that question with a "No".

I don't find anything relevant to the subject of the paper I linked in the article you link in the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy. Perhaps you can point out a passage or two in it that does bear on Williford's paper "Husserl’s hyletic data and phenomenal consciousness."

Maybe read again the last paragraph I extracted from Williford's paper:

". . .Hyletic data, and the acts that animate them, survive the phenomenological reduction.8 If something survives the reduction, it is immanent or really inherent in consciousness.9 These “immanental data” are not among the transcendent objects — the objects of representation — that get excluded or “placed in brackets.” They are part of the “phenomenological residuum” and thus part of the proper subject matter of Husserl's transcendental phenomenology. One thus attempts to study the hyletic data and the patterns of animation, regardless of the existence of the objects and states of affairs the animations aim at. The point of such a study need not be directly epistemological or metaphysical. It can be, among other things, to get us to think about consciousness at the appropriate level of generality and abstraction. . . ."
 
Very interesting, but perhaps unnecessarily complex. Maybe a good idea to review the following link in relation to the paper:

https://www.iep.utm.edu/phen-red/

It seems to me that if the exercise is to question our assumptions about the truth ( "the case" ) of a situation, that engaging in deep meditation may not be necessary. For example, all we need to do is find an exception to our assumptions about the situation. Not that I'm opposed to meditation. It's just that in some cases it might be taking the long slow way around. For example with "hyletic data" ( synonymous with qualia ) such as color, we might assume that it is the case that a Ferrari is red, because we see it as such. To find the exception, we only need ask the question, does everyone see it as red? Clearly our knowledge of color-blindness means that we can answer that question with a "No".


The paper linked below should contextualize and clarify the significance of Williford's paper on hyletic data.

"Discursive and Somatic Intentionality:
Merleau-Ponty contra McDowell or Sellars”

Carl B. Sachs

"Introduction

That philosophy does away with myths is one of the oldest myths about philosophy. One such myth is that Kant overcame the opposition between the Scylla of dogmatic rationalism and Charybdis of skeptical empiricism. The truth behind this myth lies in Kant’s rejection of “the sensory-cognitive continuum.”1 The sensory-cognitive continuum (SCC) holds that there is no interesting difference in kind between perceiving and thinking. 2
Post-Kantian philosophy of mind is “anti-Cartesian” by distinguishing between (at least) two different capacities that are individually necessary and jointly sufficient for cognitive judgments, i.e. assertions that can be integrated into an evolving, well-confirmed theory about the world as that which we discover rather than create. Kant thereby distinguishes between “sensible intuitions” (the representational states associated with our capacity to be sensually affected by objects) and “concepts” (the representational states associated with our capacity to judge by following rules).The Kantian rejection of the SCC informs both Wilfrid Sellars and Maurice Merleau-Ponty, and yet each also held that Kant’s rejection of the SCC was inadequate. Kant’s rejection of the SCC hinges on his account of apperceptive consciousness: consciousness of oneself, self-consciousness. As Rosenberg (1996) nicely puts it, the “problematic of apperception” concerns how to understand what it is to be an experiencing subject, conceptually distinct from any possible object of experience, whether of “outer” or “inner” sense.3

In the Kantian account, and above all in the Transcendental Deduction, self-consciousness is correlated with and inseparable from consciousness of objects. But distinguishing between sensory and cognitive consciousness raises the corresponding “problematic of non-apperception”: whether there is non-apperceptive
consciousness, consciousness that is neither consciousness of self nor (following the Deduction) of objects, in the demanding senses that give rise to the familiar problems of epistemology and philosophy of mind. Sellars and Merleau-Ponty both hold that accounting for the distinction between perception and thought requires accounting for non-apperceptive consciousness.

As I will show in detail, the issues between Sellars and Merleau-Ponty concern just how this kind of consciousness should be characterized, the grounds upon which it is introduced, and the role that the concept of it plays. Whereas Sellars introduces what he calls the “sheer receptivity” of sensations as an explanatory concept, Merleau-Ponty introduces what he calls “motor intentionality” of our bodily orientations as a phenomenological (hence transcendental) concept. Likewise, Sellars thinks of non-apperceptive consciousness qua sheer receptivity as neither self-consciousness nor object-consciousness, whereas Merleau-Ponty thinks of non-apperceptive consciousness qua bodily awareness as both ‘pre-subjective’ and ‘pre-objective’. (In both cases, however, perception differs from thought because it involves a kind of consciousness distinct from propositionally-structured, judging-involving consciousness of self and objects.) Yet Sellars and Merleau-Ponty differ over whether non-apperceptive consciousness must be non-intentional or if non-apperceptive consciousness has its own kind of intentionality. Here I take Sellars to defend the first option and Merleau-Ponty the second . . . ."


1 As Rosenberg puts it, “Sellars follows Kant in rejecting the Cartesian picture of a sensory-cognitive continuum”(2007, 22). O’Shea follows suit in his “Having a Sensible World in View: McDowell and Sellars on PerceptualExperience” in Philosophical Books 51:2, pp. 63-82.
2 The idea of the SCC held sway over much of early modern thought about the nature of the mind. Kant understood himself as innovating by rejecting the SCC: “In brief, Leibniz intellectualised appearances, just as Locke. . . .sensualised the concepts of the understanding. . . . Instead of looking at understanding and sensibility as two sources of quite different kinds of representations that have to be linked together to yield objectively valid judgments about things, each of these great men holds to one only of the two faculties, taking it to be the one that directly refers to things in themselves, while marginalizing the other faculty as merely something that serves to confuse (Leibniz) or to organize (Locke) the representations provided by the favored faculty” (CPR B327; Guyer and Wood translation).
3 See Rosenberg’s The Thinking Self (Ridgeview Publishing, 1996, 2008).



https://www.academia.edu/1078991/Di...Dowell_or_Sellars_?email_work_card=view-paper
 
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It occurs to me that MP's paper "The Primacy of Perception" might be helpful at this point, in lieu of reading, for the time being, his lengthy book Phenomenology of Perception. As I recall, MP presented this paper to his colleagues at the College de France or the Sorbonne after the publication of Phenomenology of Perception. "The Primacy of Perception" is available at the link below in pdf, including the lengthy discussion of it by MP and his colleagues following his presentation of the paper.


http://www.hass.rpi.edu/public_html/ruiz/AdvancedIntegratedArts/ReadingsAIA/Merleau-Ponty_The Primacy of Perception.pdf
 
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The paper linked below should contextualize and clarify the significance of Williford's paper on hyletic data ... https://www.academia.edu/1078991/Discursive_and_Somatic_Intentionality_Merleau-Ponty_contra_McDowell_or_Sellars_?email_work_card=view-paper
At present, I don't see any direct connection. The paper doesn't mention hyletic data or Williford. But I suppose one might infer a number of conceptual intersections. What do you think the significance of Williford's paper on hyletic data is ( to you - in you own words )? Do you see why "hyletic" seems to me to be used synonymously with "qualia" ( in the article )? Are there any differences? If so, what do you think they are?
 
Sorry to misunderstand what you've written, as I apparently have done. For me our existential situation is not 'unthinkable' nor a cause for anguish.

. . .



That's just it: I don't find our existential 'framework' to be 'unthinkable'. Nor do the phenomenologists, who have described it eloquently. It just is what it is, and leaves room for us to attempt to justify our lives in the ways in which we behave toward other living beings, in what we accept or reject in human society.


ps, have you read the later Heidegger concerning his concept of our Appropriation by Being to be the shepherds of being in our world?


"Nor a cause for anguish..." is an interesting afterthought. I guess I don't experience any mental or physical suffering from encountering the "unthinkable"--I feel I must say this to clear up any further misunderstandings.

I am of course always interested in what others would describe as an eloquent discourse regarding the very foundations of our ability to experience something like a satisfactory description or story that helps us all fully grok the fundamentals of our own ability to "think" or "wonder" about the same.

The answer you provide is as ancient as they come: "It is what it is" --> you might find an earlier form of such a statement in the old texts that say "אֶהְיֶה אֲשֶׁר אֶהְיֶה" sometimes translated as "I will be what I will be."
 
At present, I don't see any direct connection. The paper doesn't mention hyletic data or Williford. But I suppose one might infer a number of conceptual intersections. What do you think the significance of Williford's paper on hyletic data is ( to you - in you own words )? Do you see why "hyletic" seems to me to be used synonymously with "qualia" ( in the article )? Are there any differences? If so, what do you think they are?

Twp papers by Shaun Gallagher, linked below, will provide you with some background in understanding Husserl's concept of hyletic data and the questions raised in modern philosophy of mind and consciousness studies concerning qualia, sense, and bodily sensations as grounding consciousness in what MP called "the perceptual faith" -- the knowledge acquired by embodied consciousnesses through their lived experience that they perceive and exist in an actual physical world, though without knowing objects in-themselves. Williford's excellent paper explores the existence of hyletic data even at the level of prereflective, pre-thetic, consciousness. The recent links I've posted should, if read carefully, lead to a grasp of the foundations of phenomenological philosophy.

note: I'll set the links to the two Gallagher papers when I recapture them. I've recently switched from Microsoft Edge to Chrome and am finding that links are dropped in f-ing Chrome.
 
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