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C2C, 2-22-15: Hrs 1-2, Jacques Vallee—Hrs 3-4 Ray Stanford!


The object shows up in TWO photos. Ray has a shot taken simultaneously of Hynek taking a short and both photos appear to show a small object way in the distance. Is it a "UFO?" I don't know, but there is a strong possibility. FWIW: here is another photo (taken some months later) that has what appear to be three craft hovering just above the horizon.
Is Zamora "on record" stating these photos have the exact same object in view that he saw take-off ??? I don't think so, and that is my point too! Hynek and Ray show-up 5 days later and propagate the idea this is probably the same object Zamora witnessed. Chris, this is pure propaganda being used by Hynek and Ray for their own purposes, beliefs, and agendas. It has nothing to do with Zamora except that it's an opportunity to "steal the publicity" to propagate their myths and their agendas. It really is bizarre, imo. Selling a book and doing military PR.
 
He who laughs last, laughs best...

Just to be clear, I'm not laughing at anyone. Ray is an odd duck, but then so am I. Pretty sure there are a lot of us here. :)

I do think all the hullabaloo over the Roswell Slides is silly, especially the endless speculation based on very fuzzy video images taken from a trailer or whatever that was. It did not hold my attention for long. Proves nothing. We know exactly the same amount about what the slides actually show. Maybe they are the real thing, maybe not. Arguing about it now is just about the silliest thing I've seen in a while. That's a little unnerving, considering the time I've spent (wasted?) on such topics in recent years.

Maybe Ray has what he says he has, maybe not. Chris, your insistence and constant support of Ray goes some distance to keeping it interesting, but in the end we still don't know jack about it. Arguing about that now is just about as big a waste of energy as the endless speculation and melodrama surrounding the slides. Less entertaining, too. The longer Ray waits to unveil his "proof", the less credibility he has with all us outsiders, which is pretty much everyone but a handful of people. Whether he is operating as a real scientist when it comes to his claims is a valid question, but it's really hard to tell. I'm pretty sure any real scientist would consider his behavior beyond the pale, but like everything else about his claims, only time will tell.

This thread, with its insufferable rehashes of things like the Zamorra sighting, reminded me a lot of the movie "Groundhog Day" so I posted a very appropriate YT clip. Pretty much everything on the web on paranormal topics is in the same category as far as I'm concerned, though, especially the UFO and Bigfoot topics. That's why I have avoided it altogether for several months, and I must say I prefer reality. I stop in here occasionally to see if there is actually anything new worth looking at, and usually leave thanking my earlier self for getting the hell off the hamster wheel.
 
That's why I have avoided it altogether for several months, and I must say I prefer reality. I stop in here occasionally to see if there is actually anything new worth looking at, and usually leave thanking my earlier self for getting the hell off the hamster wheel.
Well said. I'm no diplomat and prefer to be blunt, and Ufology and Ray can't be part of a true scientific effort until there is an organized group of scientists willing to study this seriously and have peer review too. Vallee could be chairman of the board, imo, but there is so much infighting and too few visible scientists that the only way forward might work as an anonymous scientific organization "going virtual" and encrypted on the Internet.

One way to do this would be by anonymous volunteer scientists that could have their credentials verified by some independent authority, but, also, allow them to remain anonymous too. Maybe there are enough retired scientists and aerospace people interested that could organize it too?

Chris indicated today that Ray has a presentation on the way. Is it just for insiders or open to the public too? When?
 
Besides my post just above in response to your comments quoted here "just above" I need to offer some more information that explains further WHY Zamora says "white objects" on a radio show that IS micro-managed by the military and is BS. Pure propaganda. Use an authority figure to lie on behalf of patriotism and National Security, and the ducks can become anything! Quack, quack.

Ray Stanford: "By contrast, he had talked very freely about them to Dr. J. Allen Hynek and me, along with State Police Sergeant Samuel Chavez, who was the fourth and only other person allowed at the site on the morning of April 29, 1964, the fifth day after the landing. [See for reference, page 61 of the U.S. hard-cover edition of my book on the case.]"

Ray continues: As things had happened, sometime after 7:00 P.M. on the evening after Zamora's terrifying encounter, Federal Bureau of Investigations agent J. Arthur Byrnes, Jr., had interrogated the witness. Upon hearing Zamora tell in no uncertain terms that he had seen the two diminutive, white-clad, bipedal beings standing right beside the NW landing leg of the craft and with their head tops coming to only "well below" (Zamora's words) the 5' 2" creosote bust's uppermost part, the F.B.I. agent firmly told Zamora (The words are reported here exactly as Zamore later confessed them to me.), "It will be better if you don't publicly mention seeing the two small figures in white. No one will believe you anyhow."

Ray continues: Now please note the following fact carefully: ZAMORA AGREED NOT TO TELL about the "as though in white coveralls", diminutive beings he had seen by the creosote bush, adjacent to the NW landing strut. Zamora had served in the U.S. army, and respecting government authority, had taken his promise to the F.B.I. agent as an oath to officialdom. Resultantly, until later when Zamora got suspicious that the government was trying to hide something they didn't want the public to learn about, when asked about his initial description of the beings, would simply say things like, "Well, I did see something like a couple of pairs of white coveralls, kinda' like hanging on a clothesline, you know..." He never explained how one of the two pair of coveralls, upon seeing his police car top the mesa, had, "...jumped, kinda' like startled, you know..." Personally, I think the white coveralls hanging on a clothesline comment was really just a sarcastic quip, because of the non-disclosure promise agent Byrnes had extracted from him. Whatever its origin, Hynek referred to it in his media conference on April 29, in a continuing government attempt to obfuscate the sighting of very much alive humanoids occupying those 'coveralls'.
===========================================

This whole incident becomes propaganda for specific agendas once Hynek and Stanford are involved within 5 days after the sighting. At least Zamora is on record saying these "people" [because he assumed so, and YES, that is a fact... possible car crash, etc.] were below 5'2" in height. There are plenty of 4 foot tall adults, and I think the military uses short people for all kinds of specialized missions too! Furthermore, depending on angle of view, and distance, and Zamora's very limited short viewing time, then Zamora's height estimate can easily be off by a foot or more. It's just an estimate from only seconds of viewing time at a far distance recalled from memory several days later too!

Get Ray Stanford and Hynek there within 5 days of this sighting, and this whole incident becomes extremely suspect. It's propaganda. It's ET's and their UFO's too! Ducks quack and ducks walk, and, not so coincidentally, ducks fly and get photographed at just the right moment and become flying saucers too! Take that picture against a full moon at night, and you have "a flock" of ET UFO's flying formation too! LOL. Quack, quack.
I had to come back to this because the other day what you wrote made me spit coffee all over my keyboard and it needed time to dry. So ok, lets get this straight....we can't trust Zamora anymore once the FBI got to him....he no longer saw little people but instead "midgets" that the military often used???.....o.k.....and Hyneck and Ray instructed him along those lines that he was really seeing aliens.....o.k....and his radio show interview was partly fabricated....wait...did you say car accident??? the same car that flew up in the air, left markings on the ground and his backup also saw this "car" floating in the air....cause if it was just a car accident with two little midgets, I mean, man...that's some cool shit....Do you write sci-fi for a living???? You know what really happened....swamp gas.
 
Here is a commercial-free version of the C2C show w/ Jacques Vallee and Ray Stanford:
[Ray's caveat:] "But one warning: THAT DRAWING WITH THE ALLEGED 'RED INSIGNIA' SHOWN...IS THE FAKE ONE, not the real one, which, DEFINITELY WAS AN INVERTED V WITH THREE LINES ACROSS IT. In the interview, I talk mostly about the Socorro case, but you are definitely going to hear some new facts about it, IF you listen all the way through. ;)"

 
Darn! Somehow I missed your link, and I found it on youtube just today. So, I listened, but...
I'll ask Ray about his promise to provide the audio of the call.
BTW, I realize you don't care, but from what I hear from a few who tuned in, Ray's appearance on C2C last night went smashingly well. Knapp emailed him after the show w/ a wonderful thank you note and an offer to help out w/ one of Ray's projects. Ray is changing the scientific world of ichnology when he looks down, I can't wait to see what happens when he releases the results of his true scientific passion: looking up!:p
Did you ask Ray about his radar audio tape he made of the FAA guy's comments? No rush, this is just a reminder...

Ray only talked about selling his "rare book" [for $60] and repeated a rehash of Socorro. Tell us something new, please.

What's new? Ray claims he has 1 or 2 photos of the 'same' UFO craft Zamora saw. How can he possibly prove that? He says one of the 2 objects clearly shows the landing gear too. Guess what... He will reveal this picture if someone will sponsor a new book about it. Can he be any more crass and direct about his motives. Money?

Btw, he admitted the object appears to be at least a half-mile away, and he does not say how he obtained this photo. Plus, the photo was taken in August about 4 months AFTER the Socorro incident. Then the show ends with Ray saying he has better photographic evidence of other UFO's that are better than the Socorro incident. Ray sure knows how to "beat the system" to offer proof of anything. It always evaporates at the last moment.
 
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I had to come back to this because the other day what you wrote made me spit coffee all over my keyboard and it needed time to dry. So ok, lets get this straight....we can't trust Zamora anymore once the FBI got to him....he no longer saw little people but instead "midgets" that the military often used???.....o.k.....and Hyneck and Ray instructed him along those lines that he was really seeing aliens.....o.k....and his radio show interview was partly fabricated....wait...did you say car accident??? the same car that flew up in the air, left markings on the ground and his backup also saw this "car" floating in the air....cause if it was just a car accident with two little midgets, I mean, man...that's some cool shit....Do you write sci-fi for a living???? You know what really happened....swamp gas.
That's very entertaining except that Zamora himself thought it might have been a car accident, when he first saw it. The height of the little people could be between 4 feet to 5 feet, so those are not midgets by any means. [Hynek is the one about Swamp Gas.]
 
THANKS. Ray needs to keep his word, and three years is long enough to wait. Remind Ray that his health can fail at any time; he can lose his ability to accomplish anything more if he falls ill or gets injured or becomes frail no matter what his will power is now. It will be lost at some point during old age. Death is a certainty.

Ray can release his photos and films, so WE can all "care"... ;)

Hey, I just found-out that Ray is 75 years old, now. Someone posted this in 2012, and please note he has a heart condition too...

This was posted in 2012: " He is, after all, 72 years old, has only about 85% of his heart left beating, [...] "

This wreaks more UFO Mythology in the making...
 
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Hey, I just found-out that Ray is 75 years old, now. Someone posted this in 2012, and please note he has a heart condition too...

This was posted in 2012: " He is, after all, 72 years old, has only about 85% of his heart left beating, [...] "

This wreaks more UFO Mythology in the making... Ray will die before we see the 1985 film. And, the FAA audio tape I mentioned in this thread will disappear too!

Will Ray prove me wrong??? I can hope so. Seriously. I would love to be proven wrong. Chris, make me eat my words! Please.
Normally I wouldn't say this out loud but the fact is that many of us have taken a kick at the Ray Stanford horse and O'Brien takes it on the chin all the time. A lot of us have buried that hatchet long ago. Chris believes what he believes; many believe different and that's ok. Stanford isn't sharing and O'Brien isn't his keeper so there really isn't anywhere to go with this convo. A dissection of the forum, as I'm sure you've done, tells you all there is to know about this topic. Either that or contact Stanford directly as there are no answers here to be found.

Chris' brother is working through cancer right now and if you haven't experienced a family member going through that piece of life's excruciation let me tell you plain and simple - it's agony. May you never have to live through it. So while this may be a forum that's open 24/7 that doesn't mean we stop being human. So can you just give it a fucking rest for a bit and just let it pass while the man deals with the heavy real parts of his life. That strikes me as the decent thing to do at the time. If you go back and read through your post you'll see how insensitive it actually is.
 
I removed the part that you quoted regarding Chris. I won't mention Chris or ask him to check with Ray, since you're exactly right... his brother is facing cancer treatment...
 
The opening act is fantastic. It is the second part that bothers me. Again, Ray will go on national radio and hype up his evidence, tell everyone how concrete it is, then fail to release any of it. Again, if Ray is uninterested in submitting his work to a real academic institution for proper research, then he should stay off the airwaves and stop promoting evidence he refuses to release. It is utterly pointless and extremely frustrating to anyone with a serious interest in this subject.

I don't understand why someone would dive into the minutia of the Zamora case and waste time trying to defend their version of a crappy sketch of a symbol, when they are in possession of film footage of a "flying saucer shooting a plasma beam in broad day light" and possibly a photograph of the egg craft itself.

This would be like Ray spending a lifetime trying to determine if the impression in the mud was made by a dinosaur foot, while claiming to have said foot in his possession thereby unequivocally proving the cause of the impression...it doesn't make sense. You wouldn't analyze the soil to see if it contained bone fragments, when you pulled a complete fossil of a foot from the imprint. This is essentially what Ray does with his research in the "symbol" and other minor details. If you are sitting on groundbreaking evidence of flying sauces on film...you wouldn't care about sketches and impressions. Getting that film authenticated would do far more for your research and do far more underline and support your UFO claims than a sketch of a crappy symbol down at the national archives.
 
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Going to be a great show for sure.

After years of hearing Ray at this point i think Ray's "Evidence" is going to have to be reviewed posthumously. Chris do you know who will inherit these materials and if a chain of custody can be established?
Not being morbid just realistic.

What ever happened to Ward?!?!
 
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