Been HAD...AGAIN!

[ondafritz]

So what? Wasn't Travis Walton convicted for forging his name on a bunch of payroll cheques about 4 years prior to his alleged abduction experience? Nobody holds that against him.

Apples and oranges. The question then becomes has Travis Walton ever denied his conviction? And did he ever lie about any of the events surrounding his experience? How much money or fame has Travis Walton gained from his encounter? And did he ever disgrace the United States Marine Corp. by attesting to having served in that uniform fraudulently? Has Travis ever been accused of impersonating an officer of the law or any other first responder?

 

[Hotkafka]

So what? Wasn't Travis Walton convicted for forging his name on a bunch of payroll cheques about 4 years prior to his alleged abduction experience? Nobody holds that against him.

Um?... One can only assume you're playing for the laughs. You're kidding right?

 

[Randall]

Apples and oranges. The question then becomes has Travis Walton ever denied his conviction? And did he ever lie about any of the events surrounding his experience? How much money or fame has Travis Walton gained from his encounter? And did he ever disgrace the United States Marine Corp. by attesting to having served in that uniform fraudulently? Has Travis ever been accused of impersonating an officer of the law or any other first responder?

ondafritz,

Well you see, I'm pretty sure it was Phil Klass who pointed out that it was Walton and Rogers, Rogers being the younger brother of the head of the woodcutting crew who pleaded guilty to first degree burglary and forgery charges in 1971. So I guess we don't really need to ask if he deinied the charges do we? But hey, just because he forged signatures on payroll cheques doesn't mean he forged his abduction does it? Apparently he got probabtion and paid back the company. As for any gain from his abduction story, I dunno ... the film was screened at 1,435 theaters grossing $6,116,484 in its opening weekend and went on to gross $19,885,552 in ticket sales through a 4-week theatrical run ... then there was the book deal. But hey ... who knows how much Walton ever made himself off that, and you know going down in ufology history isn't exactly the be all and end all. So was it really for the fame? How many ufologists have even heard of the Sitgreaves National Forest Incident? There certainly isn't any proof it was a hoax, and Walton was never charged with anything. Besides UFO experiences can happen to anyone ... I doubt the aliens really have much regard for our justice system and really couldn't care less whether or not Walton had gotten himself into some teen age mischief. There are some other issues like the lie detectors and the GSW report, but how relevant can those be? Apparently there are plenty of people who think Walton is just a great guy and all that stuff is just ancient history so far his life goes now. So I'm certainly not going to crucify him. You'll have to decide for yourself about his story.

 

[ondafritz]

ondafritz,

Well you see, I'm pretty sure it was Phil Klass who pointed out that it was Walton and Rogers, Rogers being the younger brother of the head of the woodcutting crew who pleaded guilty to first degree burglary and forgery charges in 1971. So I guess we don't really need to ask if he deinied the charges do we? But hey, just because he forged signatures on payroll cheques doesn't mean he forged his abduction does it? Apparently he got probabtion and paid back the company. As for any gain from his abduction story, I dunno ... the film was screened at 1,435 theaters grossing $6,116,484 in its opening weekend and went on to gross $19,885,552 in ticket sales through a 4-week theatrical run ... then there was the book deal. But hey ... who knows how much Walton ever made himself off that, and you know going down in ufology history isn't exactly the be all and end all. So was it really for the fame? How many ufologists have even heard of the Sitgreaves National Forest Incident? There certainly isn't any proof it was a hoax, and Walton was never charged with anything. Besides UFO experiences can happen to anyone ... I doubt the aliens really have much regard for our justice system and really couldn't care less whether or not Walton had gotten himself into some teen age mischief. There are some other issues like the lie detectors and the GSW report, but how relevant can those be? Apparently there are plenty of people who think Walton is just a great guy and all that stuff is just ancient history so far his life goes now. So I'm certainly not going to crucify him. You'll have to decide for yourself about his story.

Please understand that nowhere in my post did I validate or show any support for Travis Walton's abduction incident. I just asked if he has ever lied about committing a crime or about belonging to any military or public safety organization. As a rule I have a problem with most abduction stories. It is a genre of this crazy field that I just can't quite wrap my arms around. The only one I give a second look to is the Hill incident. Seems to me that if Betty and Barney made it up then they deserve a Pulitzer prize for original fiction and a oscar for acting in a drama while under hypnosis. If anyone can prove Travis Walton a fraud then I am right there with you. But please understand the catch word is "PROVE".

 

[Randall]

Please understand that nowhere in my post did I validate or show any support for Travis Walton's abduction incident. I just asked if he has ever lied about committing a crime or about belonging to any military or public safety organization. As a rule I have a problem with most abduction stories. It is a genre of this crazy field that I just can't quite wrap my arms around. The only one I give a second look to is the Hill incident. Seems to me that if Betty and Barney made it up then they deserve a Pulitzer prize for original fiction and a oscar for acting in a drama while under hypnosis. If anyone can prove Travis Walton a fraud then I am right there with you. But please understand the catch word is "PROVE".

ondafritz,

Of course. I understand completely ... and it was a perfectly fair question of you to ask. I also tend to agree with you on abductions in general. I don't entirely dismiss them, but as you say, there is this nagging issue of proof around the whole phenomenon. I was recently contemplating the the issue of proof and why it is so elusive, when the Trickster element came to mind, so I wrote a post about that here:

https://www.theparacast.com/forum/threads/7925-Thoughts-on-the-Trickster?p=123995#post123995

Perhaps you might have some comments?

 

[ondafritz]

ondafritz,

Of course. I understand completely ... and it was a perfectly fair question of you to ask. I also tend to agree with you on abductions in general. I don't entirely dismiss them, but as you say, there is this nagging issue of proof around the whole phenomenon. I was recently contemplating the the issue of proof and why it is so elusive, when the Trickster element came to mind, so I wrote a post about that here:

https://www.theparacast.com/forum/threads/7925-Thoughts-on-the-Trickster?p=123995#post123995

Perhaps you might have some comments?

Hello!
I just read your post on the mystery of the trickster element. I can't say I disagree. My feeling is there is just sooooooo much that we don't understand about what is going on. But I think that reasonable people can agree that "something" is going on. And the swamp gas explanation along with the other standard ilk that come from the skeptic playbook ring hollow to anyone who really thinks about what is clearly on display.

I have never had a paranormal experience. Darn it!!! I would love to see unexplainable lights in the sky. But everything I have seen up there... I can explain! Darn it!!!! No ghost... no nothing.

But it does not take away from the fact that enough people have seen enough weird stuff to conclude that the universe we live in is definitely a weird place!

I have also come to a conclusion about most ufo sightings. I believe that most ufo apparitions are ufos just passing thru. You know about the infinite improbability drive on the Heart of Gold from the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy? Where the ship passes thru all points in the universe at the same time? I believe the same thing happens with ufos. They have no clue we can see them when they are passing thru. As a matter of fact... if they did have a clue we could see them then they really don't care. They are going someplace else. And it is no different then us sitting at a rest stop watching cars on the interstate.

I just think that an open mind is needed. And what makes it hard to figger out is all of these frauds that permeate this field. And the people who give these clown credence.

 

[bbridges]

I still harbor doubts about Walton...

 

[Randall]

Woo Bashing

I still harbor doubts about Walton...

I'd say that would be normal. What is interesting about the case is that it represents one of the earlier more serious efforts to attack the character of the person rather than the story itself. This tactic has the added effect of staining the whole field. What could possibly make the pseudoskeptics happier? I'm not saying we shouldn't consider a person's history. But who's perfect out there and where's the line between constructive skepticism and woo-bashing? It's not always as clear cut as we'd like to think.

 

[trainedobserver]

I still harbor doubts about Walton...

Heretic! LOL!

I agree. The Walton case is an excellent example of Ufology run amok though. Isn't it interesting that many UFO investigations turn out telling us more about human psychology and social interaction in general than it does about the phenomena itself? What have we actually learned about UFOs, their occupants, or their purposes by these major cases? What cross-references and confirms other aspects of other cases. Very little if anything.

 

[The Tin Man]

So what? Wasn't Travis Walton convicted for forging his name on a bunch of payroll cheques about 4 years prior to his alleged abduction experience? Nobody holds that against him.

I don't think that it is the fact that he is merely a convicted criminal. It most likely is the fact that he was convicted of fraud which weighs against his ability to tell the truth.

 

[The Tin Man]

I believe that the reality is that if Imbrogno and Witkowski were honest about their backgrounds and occupations for pay most likely no one would have cared one way or the other. Their passion in searching for answers within UFOlogy would have more than compensated for their own perceived lack of credentials “to do the job.” Instead they force the public to question their motives and more important, the information that they claim to have uncovered and/or experienced.

“Oh what a tangled web we weave,
When first we practise to deceive!” --Sir Walter Scott,
Marmion, Canto vi. Stanza 17.
Scottish author & novelist (1771 - 1832)

 

[wwkirk]

Regarding Imbrogno, I was impressed by his background when he would speak on exotic subjects of dimensions and physical reality. It helped to think he knew what he was talking about. The revelation, however, popped that balloon. I was less familiar with Witkowski. In general, I feel less trusting of someone who has shown to be a liar. It leaves me not knowing what to believe.

I agree that they could have succeeded without embellishments, but they must have thought it gave them greater prestige.

 

[Decker]

Look, when I was a police officer I found the following to be "gospel!" If we had an informant working with us that was found to have lied about anything, from that point forward he had a microscope jammed up his ass. If they lie about one thing, how can you EVER trust them on anything? Witkowski I did not know, Imbrogno I did know. With Imbrogno I felt betrayed beyond belief. I knew him going back to the 80's, I liked Phil .. always thought he was real. He never pressed the boundries until the last couple of years.

Today, my bottom line on Phil is simple, if he combusted in front of me I would not piss on him to put out the fire.

Decker

 

[trainedobserver]

The thing is as Tin Man alludes to, all the lying wasn't necessary. The fact that it was unnecessary and so blatant tells you a great deal about whether they would lie about anything else. Those who deal in the fantastic have nothing but their credibility to use as coin. These two are flat broke.

I wouldn't believe either of those two guys about what they had for breakfast much less anything else at this point. The fact that they still get speaking gigs says a lot about the trustworthiness of the folks giving them airtime don't you think? It reminds of a famous line from a classic film about monkeyshines.

"Its a madhouse! A madhouse!"
Charlton Heston - Planet of the Apes

 

[The Tin Man]

Look, when I was a police officer I found the following to be "gospel!" If we had an informant working with us that was found to have lied about anything, from that point forward he had a microscope jammed up his ass. If they lie about one thing, how can you EVER trust them on anything? Witkowski I did not know, Imbrogno I did know. With Imbrogno I felt betrayed beyond belief. I knew him going back to the 80's, I liked Phil .. always thought he was real. He never pressed the boundries until the last couple of years.

Today, my bottom line on Phil is simple, if he combusted in front of me I would not piss on him to put out the fire.

Decker

Exactly Don. It seems like the ramifications of "betrayal" are rarely factored in when they initiate the process. Hurt feelings, broken friendships, etc. are the flotsam and jetsam left in their wake.

 

[The Tin Man]

The thing is as Tin Man alludes to, all the lying wasn't necessary. The fact that it was unnecessary and so blatant tells you a great deal about whether they would lie about anything else. Those who deal in the fantastic have nothing but their credibility to use as coin. These two are flat broke.

I wouldn't believe either of those two guys about what they had for breakfast much less anything else at this point. The fact that they still get speaking gigs says a lot about the trustworthiness of the folks giving them airtime don't you think? It reminds of a famous line from a classic film about monkeyshines.

"Its a madhouse! A madhouse!"
Charlton Heston - Planet of the Apes

Ha ha! Great lines from a great movie! Good quote.

 

[The Tin Man]

Read here: Veteran's fake military record prompts questions about charity - Houston Chronicle

Here is a current semi-relevant article used to make my point from the previous post. This veteran was attached to military police units for ten years on active duty. But...he had to "embellish" his honorable record by making outrageous claims. To my point then; he could have succeeded wildly or failed based upon the true foundation of his actual achievements. No B.S. necessary. The dark and somber thread of facing "a machete-wielding child he'd killed in self-defense during a secret mission in Rwanda" still lingers in his memory! Really? Hmmm...I am going out on a limb here, but true Special Operations Command/Special Operations Group Operators will not talk about what they have done to non-peers. There is a reason they have adopted the motto of being "The Quiet Professionals (emphasis mine)." That is the first RED FLAG to be raised. Next, always look at the timeline. U.S. Special Forces had involvement there in approximately 1994-96. This former Soldier would have been very inexperienced and not yet at the required rank or level of training to "operate" in Rwanda, or anywhere else. This is the second RED FLAG to go up like "Maggie's Drawers." The next factor is not fully understanding the proper role of military units. U.S. Army Special Forces are not U.S. Navy SEALS. Special Forces units are "trainers/advisors." They primarily operate within indigenous peoples to educate them in disciplines from military tactics and weapon usage, to living off the land in finding edible foods and fresh potable water. This is done so as to raise partisan forces, etc. They can kill with the best of them but that is not their primary role. That is why the U.S. Navy SEALS have been spotlighted so much of late. Their primary mission is small unit surgical strikes and operations. That would be the third RED FLAG. OK, I am done with that tangent. Back to my point. In short; lying did little or nothing for our protagonist and cost him quite a bit. Lesson? Vet every vet! If someone claims military service all you have to say is: "Please show me your Form DD-214." Everything (and I mean everything!) the Service Member did on Active Duty is on that form. Dates of service, rank, awards, decorations, military schools and training, etc. If they will not show you the form that is the fourth RED FLAG to be raised. Why? Because every military Service Member who has served on active duty has one or was issued one. If the vet gives you stories about their military service record being "classified," "destroyed by fire," etc. it is a lie. Period. Those excuses are "Hollywood in nature" and are based upon flaccid fictitious premises such as "Mack Bolan" novels or the movie "Lethal Weapon" with main character Martin Riggs. That is the fifth and final RED FLAG to be raised. I am not sure why in a society where a valid birth certificate, Social Security card, etc. is needed just to obtain a state driver's license do we provide such latitude to liars who cannot support their claims because they advise the inquisitor that it is "top secret, etc." Maybe we as a society have fallen over the fence where life now imitates art. Really folks, do you need to have "confirmed (human) kills" under your belt or combat experience to be a successful UFO hunter, or accountant for that matter? To his credit perhaps our protagonist thought that having these experiences would help him in his PTSD counseling endeavor. Just remember though, that licensed psychiatrists/psychologists do good work too without having experienced the du jour trauma they are counseling first hand. Perhaps we would have a national shortage crisis in those fields if it was required that they deploy with the U.S. Navy SEALS and engage in close combat just "to get a taste." "Double tap 'em twice in the head Doc just to make sure they's dead!" I don't think so. One last thought. If you read the article closely you can get a feel for what you need to look for in the future. The opening sentence in fact says it all: "Paul Schroeder's tale was so vivid it verged on cinematic." Exactly!

--Per Aspera Ad Astra!