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Barney and Betty Hill...again.

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trainedobserver said:
But certainly you are aware the increasing Islamic population of Europe and the world-wide propensity for superstitious and irrational belief systems? Here in the US there are just about two religious institutions for every block. Sometimes more than that. This does not touch the 'new age' and self-styled spiritualism that enjoys so much airtime on youTube for example.
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On the other hand, there is the looming extinction of catholic priests, the growing proportion of nonbelievers, and the dissemination of knowledge via Ehrman's books about how phony christianity really is. I think secularization will affect even Islam as people become better educated.


I'm talking about the alledged 'behavior' of these creatures or their masters if you will. Theft of biological material and offspring, kidnapping, torture, experimental surgery, deception, mind-control, etc., etc., etc. Their list of crimes and barbaric behavior rival anything the SS could be accused of.
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Right. Their actual behavior makes a mockery of the old "space brothers" notion.
 
I love the Betty and Barney Hill story. It's got everything that fascinates me about the paranormal and is probably the single greatest reason that I seek out esoterica and listen to paranormal radio shows: I'm always on the lookout for tales that give me that same frisson of excitement that the B&B story gave me as a kid.

But I've learned to separate my love of stories from my understanding of how the world really works. I did a lot of post-B&B reading about the case and long ago came to the conclusion that there's not much there. I'm not 100% certain that the story is baloney, but if I had to bet...

We humans deceive ourselves that we can't be deceived, that our perceptions and memories are infallible. And it's worked pretty well, evolution-wise. In the game of survival, it's always better to err on the side of caution when estimating the size of threat (say, a mountain lion) or the imagined horrors of things that go bump in the night. Our dreams seem real to us right up until the time we wake up, and maybe just a little bit longer for some. Our imaginations, boon to our survival, can re-write our memories in ways that we don't have the power to perceive. I clearly remember things from my youth that didn't happen the way I remember them. I've edited and refined the memories over the years and have come to know that the memories are faulty only because of objective physical evidence (pictures, recordings, the consensus of other rememberers). The point is we don't always get it right and it's sometimes hard to realize that.

I believe that Betty Hill had a world-view that was significantly at odds with reality, built up over years of interest in ufos and aliens. I believe this world-view corrupted her perceptions and that her imaginings influenced Barney, who may also have independently shared these beliefs. Certainly Betty's post-abduction career became increasingly bizarre and she could not reliably distinguish between a landed ufo and a street light. Her 1995 book contains stories so delusional that even her biggest supporters were forced to avert their eyes. Barney's passion in relating his story under hypnosis is riveting, probably because he actually really believed it after a couple of years of living with Betty and her stories. I say again: by the time Barney Hill underwent this session, some part of him actually believed it. I think some part of Whitley Strieber actually believes that everything that he says happened to him is objectively true. I think that John Edward probably knows he's a cold-reading charlatan. I believe that J Z Knight was a pretty good actress and the chance that she was actually channeling an entity named Ramtha is very very very slim. But one can't ever really be totally certain, can one?

I know this is not going to be popular with readers of this forum, but I highly recommend a site called Skeptoid, which doles out common sense analysis of popular and paranormal topics each week in the form of a 15-minute podcast. I would especially direct you to the episode on the Hill abduction: Betty and Barney Hill: The Original UFO Abduction . The host can be a little patronizing but he serves up heaping helpings of common sense every week.

I still need my fix of paranormal stories, but find that the weekly Skeptoid podcasts keep me grounded in reality.
 
crabtown said:
..I believe that Betty Hill had a world-view that was significantly at odds with reality, built up over years of interest in ufos and aliens. I believe this world-view corrupted her perceptions and that her imaginings influenced Barney, who may also have independently shared these beliefs.
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Not to any significant degree. "Don't be ridiculous" he told his wife after the incident.

Certainly Betty's post-abduction career became increasingly bizarre and she could not reliably distinguish between a landed ufo and a street light.
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Yeah I read that. But from a skeptical perspective, it would've been far more impressive if perceptual issues had been noted prior to the September 1961 affair. After the event, it could've affected her as did aging perhaps. And she was never a trained observer. Years ago, during a walk around my neighborhood at dusk, I overheard an old woman say "it's not moving..could be just a star." She was considering whether Venus might be a UFO. Venus is a very familiar sight to me but not everybody.

Her 1995 book contains stories so delusional that even her biggest supporters were forced to avert their eyes.
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Again, the experience must have affected her greatly.

Barney's passion in relating his story under hypnosis is riveting, probably because he actually really believed it after a couple of years of living with Betty and her stories. I say again: by the time Barney Hill underwent this session, some part of him actually believed it...
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Prior to his abduction i.e. while he was still consciously aware of what was going on, he saw, through binocs, a strange craft with strange entities. Later some physical evidence was noted.

I still need my fix of paranormal stories, but find that the weekly Skeptoid podcasts keep me grounded in reality.
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Skeptics can be as unobjective as some believers.
 
It is difficult for me to listen to the hypnosis sessions and not believe that they experienced something very real. These two rather mundane people relate a fantastic and incredibly scary experience. Barney, agonizing and begging god for strength to bring the binoculars down is a reliving of an absolutely real event or some of the best acting I've ever heard IMHO. It gives me a chill every time I hear it.
 
trainedobserver said:
It is difficult for me to listen to the hypnosis sessions and not believe that they experienced something very real. These two rather mundane people relate a fantastic and incredibly scary experience. Barney, agonizing and begging god for strength to bring the binoculars down is a reliving of an absolutely real event or some of the best acting I've ever heard IMHO. It gives me a chill every time I hear it.
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Add to that certain physical evidence, and the case is good and deserves to be a classic. :)
 
I've posted this on at least one other thread here, but it bears repeating: Anyone who claims to have an informed opinion of the Hill case needs to have read the fairly recent book, "Captured" by Stan Friedman and Kathleen Marden. That and "Interrupted Journey" are required. :) Neither book is hard to find, or particularly long. There really are no excuses.

There has been a great deal written about the Hills over the years, and an awful lot of it is just bullshit. Yes, Betty got weird later on. So what? Neither Hill could be called anything like a UFO buff before their experience. There is a great deal of information in "Captured" that has never made it into the popular literature (at least in anything like undistorted form) before.

My favorite part of "Captured" is where Dr. Simon makes repeated attempts to change Barney's idea of what happened by asking a lot of blatantly leading questions during hypnosis sessions! Time after time he gave Barney suggestions that what they saw was something other than, well, a flying saucer. He never succeeded, of course. People who like to criticize the use of hypnosis in UFO research don't ever seem to mention that.
 
Double Nought Spy said:
...There has been a great deal written about the Hills over the years, and an awful lot of it is just bullshit. Yes, Betty got weird later on. So what? Neither Hill could be called anything like a UFO buff before their experience....
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Right, Betty only got weird after the fact. What matters is the Hills's state of mind just prior to the experience and nobody has been able to demonstrate any mental issues or serious UFOlogical interest.

Time after time he gave Barney suggestions that what they saw was something other than, well, a flying saucer. He never succeeded, of course...
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Which is remarkable considering Barney's unwillingness to believe when he first saw it.
 
The Barny & Betty story is hard not to think it was some Cold War sting maybe regarding LSD by those shadow mob. However, I have read Captured which was well written and must say Dr Simon was not the type of individual who would muck about with leading questions as he had overseen in trying to restore some normality of hundreds of WW2 & Korean Veterans from PTSD. A bloody hero in my books for that and wonder how many members have had combat returned Veterans in there home its like walking on bloody egg shells when they have there flashbacks. So I find the leading question! BS. Rather it might have come from other sources out of his control like the shadow mob maybe?
 
Maybe you should read that book again. If you do, you will find the substitution of memories to be an effective technique used (and maybe poineered) by Dr. Simon in his treatment of soldiers. It's all there in black and white, not a matter of opinion.

The Hill episode gave us many things, hypnosis as a tool for UFO investigations among them. Hypnosis, like dynamite, is a very effective tool when the situation calls for it and it's done properly. That last bit is probably the most important, in the use of either hypnosis or dynamite.
 
blowfish said:
The Barny & Betty story is hard not to think it was some Cold War sting maybe regarding LSD by those shadow mob. However, I have read Captured which was well written and must say Dr Simon was not the type of individual who would muck about with leading questions as he had overseen in trying to restore some normality of hundreds of WW2 & Korean Veterans from PTSD. A bloody hero in my books for that and wonder how many members have had combat returned Veterans in there home its like walking on bloody egg shells when they have there flashbacks. So I find the leading question! BS. Rather it might have come from other sources out of his control like the shadow mob maybe?
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Dr Simon deliberately used leading questions as part of clinical procedure to get at whatever the truth of the story was. He admitted it and was right to do so. Check out the Vallee Paracast interview. Vallee apparently met with the guy and discussed the case. According to Vallee, he believed the Hills had an experience that was real to them and wouldn't speculate what that 'experience' represented.
 
I understand your viewpoint and will listen to Vallee Paracast interview. However, leading questions by who and how do know he was not imformed to ask those question seems the Barny & Betty were very close to USA personnel from there local bases which some were very high up the chain of Command. During the Cold War FBI had its fingers into everything??
 
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