Barney and Betty Hill...again.

[Kandinsky]

You're probably wondering why the world needs another thread about Barney and Betty Hill? It's been discussed to death over the decades and there's still no consensus about what happened. If we put aside the abduction side of the incident, it remains a UFO sighting. Before the dreams and hypnosis sessions, they were both in agreement that they'd seen an unidentified light in the sky for several miles of their journey home that night.

The reason for this thread is that I found an mp3 file of Whitley Strieber narrating the book... Amazon.com: Interrupted Journey: Two Lost Hours Aboard a Flying Saucer (9780285624504): John G. Fuller: Books: Reviews, Prices more

Like many, Whitley Strieber isn't someone I have in my bookmarks/favourites. He's Coast to Coast gold, but probably not to Paracaster's tastes...

What makes this narration worth posting is the second half. It features the hypnosis sessions of Barney and Betty in their raw form. We've all read about the case and know it all well. It's a different matter to just listen to the tapes without any imagery or flashing BS.

Hearing Barney's emotional reaction as he recounts seeing beings on a craft is slightly blood-curdling. He sounds terrified. Betty's account is even more intriguing. I've got a few ideas about the accounts and I'm curious to see how you guys interpret the evidence. Whatever your thoughts, it's worth downloading just as a book to listen to. It's 2 and a half hours long.

The file is from the excellent site...English North Ontario UFO Research & Study.

The download link is http://www.noufors.com/audio/theinteruptedjourney.mp3 (Right Click-Save as)

 

[tyder001]

I think (and I know I'm in the minority here) Whitley is underrated. Yeah he's rather dramatic and goes farther out there than I would. But, he (imo) has really thought about these kinds of things and I find his journals to be interesting. Don't agree with everything he says but I do enjoy the "conversation."

 

[trainedobserver]

Hearing Barney's emotional reaction as he recounts seeing beings on a craft is slightly blood-curdling.

Agreed. Its unsettling to listen to a grown man in such a state. Whatever Barney saw, it scared the living b-jesus right out of him without a doubt. The section where he agonizes about not being able to take the glasses down is about as scary as it gets. When I was about 11 or so my Mom let me join the Sci-FI book club and "The Interrupted Journey" was one of the first books I ordered. That was my introduction into the UFO subject.

 

[Kandinsky]

Agreed. Its unsettling to listen to a grown man in such a state. Whatever Barney saw, it scared the living b-jesus right out of him without a doubt. The section where he agonizes about not being able to take the glasses down is about as scary as it gets. When I was about 11 or so my Mom let me join the Sci-FI book club and "The Interrupted Journey" was one of the first books I ordered. That was my introduction into the UFO subject.

It is isn't it? His groan of terror is primeval. Even keeping his eyes closed through most of the experience is interesting.

What particularly strikes me is Betty's voice as she relates pleading with the 'guy' to come back to Earth one day. If we met a good guy from 'elsewhere,' would we express the same sentiment? Would we offer to introduce them to to the scientists of our country? If we did try, would we be considered 'contactees' and be regarded as wacko crazy? All the dialogue where the 'guy' explains that they aren't meant to remember and even if they do, they'll have different memories that will 'drive them mad.'

It foreshadows so much that would become the abduction experience in the 80s onwards.

Anyway, I hope some new guys enjoy the tapes and some older guys enjoy it as a blast from the past. It's refreshing to hear a classic UFO incident that doesn't involve demons or sinister forces. Instead, it's all trade routes and scientific exploration. It's the ufology of when I was a kid and I believe aliens were good guys!

 

[NTS]

I agree somewhat about Strieber. His early novels like "The Wolfen" and "Warday" were good reads, and if he'd kept on like that he'd probably have a Stephen King level of popularity today. I haven't paid attention to him since "Communion" though. Based on bits and pieces I've seen here and elsewhere, he sounds disturbed.

Edit: I remember hearing discussion of Betty and Barney Hill when their story first came out. Nobody I knew at the time (I was maybe 10 or so) took their account at face value. IIRC people didn't think they were lying but thought they had psychological problems. One explanation put forth was that the Hills were a mixed-race couple, at a time when it was unusual and in some places could put them in danger. Because of that they might have been more afraid of attack than most people are. Not saying I believe this but it's what I heard then.

 

[Kandinsky]

I agree somewhat about Strieber. His early novels like "The Wolfen" and "Warday" were good reads, and if he'd kept on like that he'd probably have a Stephen King level of popularity today. I haven't paid attention to him since "Communion" though. Based on bits and pieces I've seen here and elsewhere, he sounds disturbed.

Edit: I remember hearing discussion of Betty and Barney Hill when their story first came out. Nobody I knew at the time (I was maybe 10 or so) took their account at face value. IIRC people didn't think they were lying but thought they had psychological problems. One explanation put forth was that the Hills were a mixed-race couple, at a time when it was unusual and in some places could put them in danger. Because of that they might have been more afraid of attack than most people are. Not saying I believe this but it's what I heard then.

Mmmmmmm.....I just can't relate to Strieber. I've heard him on Coast To Coast and he's a few steps too far for my interest. He reads well however.

The file is 60mb and it's well worth it to listen to the hypnosis tapes. Barney's first one begins at 1:03. There's so much more life in there than the transcripts we've read in the past. Sure, there are skeptical arguments that Barney had nightmares and Betty somehow mistook them for a reality in her own mind due to inner anxiety about being married to a black man. Sure! Why not? It sounds fairly ridiculous to me and fairly unique in psychology, but is it any more unlikely than they were abducted?

I don't share the certainty of Stan Friedman, but the Hill's experience is right up there (imo) in the credibility stakes. I believe it was a genuine shared experience. I'd like to believe it was a genuine ETI contact and it's how I'd prefer to imagine part of the UFO phenomena to be. Being objective, I haven't a clue what happened (or if), but yeah, it's a genuine shared experience in my book. If you listen to the tapes, you'll maybe understand what I'm trying to get across.

 

[Trajanus]

It's refreshing to hear a classic UFO incident that doesn't involve demons or sinister forces. Instead, it's all trade routes and scientific exploration.

Trade? Pretty one sided.

It's the ufology of when I was a kid and I believe aliens were good guys!

Even after Mantell, Moncla, Michalak etc?

 

[Kandinsky]

Trade? Pretty one sided.

Even after Mantell, Moncla, Michalak etc?

Yeah, agreed. There's no 'trade' in that story as we understand it. Not without pulling out the 'secret agreements' undercurrent of ufology anyway.

Mantell could have been pilot error and the Michalak case is one I suspect as a hoax. Moncla is an honest mystery case...a classic.

What I meant was that, as a kid, I had ideas that there were good aliens out there. Now and then, I'd climb on the shed roof and lie back. I'd look at the stars and imagine being taken away to explore the galaxies and generally be a hero of the derring-do and chivalrous variety...kind of like a pre-teen Han Solo before he developed the badass attitude! I'd read the 'Bermuda Triangle' tales and all about Vallentich and didn't equate the disappearances as a bad thing.

Where most boys dream of being soldiers and firemen...I dreamt of being a gangster, space hero or international cat burglar stealing from the rich to public acclaim. Basically a textbook 'problem child.'

 

[saucerwench]

I have ('evolved') along in the Ufo subject to quite a cynical state, but when you remind me of the Hill case, there are profoundly anomalous aspects to it that I cannot dismiss and explain. I remember when Betty Hill said the "Leader" inserted a long needle into her navel and told her "It is a pregnancy test". Betty said, (I -think- this was on 'In Search Of' with Leanord Nimoy) "That was no pregnancy test that --I-- know of." Much later on, the procedure called 'laperoscopy' had come into existence. Also, the 3-D star map that Marjorie Fish developed based on Betty's info. It was a -real- and binary star system.

I sometimes think the Ufo phenomenon has markedly changed in several ways from then to now. It seems logical that it would not remain stagnant, though.

 

[trainedobserver]

...as a kid, I had ideas that there were good aliens out there.

I did too. Then it changed to bad aliens or maybe worse indifferent aliens. Now, it appears to me the real problem isn't the temperament of any extra-terrestrial or non-human civilization (regardless of their place of origin) or its inhabitants, it is level of development and the natural consequences of higher developed civilizations initiating contact with a much less advanced one. It just never, ever, works out good for the lesser or "discovered" civilization. It's like a natural sociological law or something. I think that is what we have to fear from finding out "we're not along." We could become the next Aztecs or Mayans and our culture(s) could be eradicated through mere contact with one that overpowers and drowns out our own. "No solicitors" needs to be plowed out in large letters on the moon or something.

 

[ArchieBedford]

Thanks for posting this Kandinsky.

I recently re-read "Communion" after 23 years and found it a lot less shock-scary than the first time round. Certainly Strieber's experiences as he relates them compare quite closely to those of thousands of others as they report them. He didn't rush to judgment about what these beings might be but explored a lot of possibilities (like plausible connections with encounters in folklore and the "maybe they're our future selves travelling back in time" ideas) with intelligence and insight. IMO he lost his way in later years a bit, but he's not the first (or last) to do that. Having this shit happen to you in our present-day culture is enough to drive anyone over the edge.

The Hill case remains compelling due to the weight of accumulated evidence, like the magnetic anomalies on the car, Barney's shoes, Betty's torn & stained dress, the missing time element (unknown in the public domain at the time) and the really weird stuff which happened to both of them in the months following like the returned jewelry in the pile of leaves on the kitchen table. There's also the fact that the sighting was reported by other people in that part of NH on that night and the interest the local USAF base showed in the case. The suppressed memories certainly seemed to be real, and Benjamin Simon was a first-class hypnotist who had worked for years with the military to resolve what we'd now call PTSD in combat veterans and knew what he was doing. Broadly he uncovered a similar narrative to other cases, but years earlier. But you have to admit that if the Hill incident had happened to only one person rather than two, it probably would not have become so well known and wouldn't be so credible.

And you're right that you can't invent terror like that. He's re-living something real.

 

[Kandinsky]

I did too. Then it changed to bad aliens or maybe worse indifferent aliens. Now, it appears to me the real problem isn't the temperament of any extra-terrestrial or non-human civilization (regardless of their place of origin) or its inhabitants, it is level of development and the natural consequences of higher developed civilizations initiating contact with a much less advanced one. It just never, ever, works out good for the lesser or "discovered" civilization. It's like a natural sociological law or something. I think that is what we have to fear from finding out "we're not along." We could become the next Aztecs or Mayans and our culture(s) could be eradicated through mere contact with one that overpowers and drowns out our own. "No solicitors" needs to be plowed out in large letters on the moon or something.

I get the point and it's one that's hard to ignore. At the same time, it's worth pointing out that we're speculating within a closed system using only our human history as a comparison with the unknown. Unfortunately (or not!), it's the only benchmark we have and it doesn't bode well...depending on the manner of contact.

If contact has been, or will be made, it's naturally going to be on their terms and will reveal a lot about them. The bullshit scenario favoured by many is hovering craft over all the major cities and landing on the White House lawn! Ridiculous. How easily can that be taken as an act of conquest?!

Perhaps the safest way would be a series of messages and information exchanges? Some shared histories, footage etc. Whatever the process, there is a way for contact to be made without devastating a culture or guaranteeing a negative impact. It'd be a measure of the contacting culture/s to see which approach was taken. Anything less than a very slow process could be a red flag to their ethos and intentions?

Anyway, we're blathering about angels on a pin and we don't even know there's a pin...yet!

---------- Post added at 05:31 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:20 AM ----------

The suppressed memories certainly seemed to be real, and Benjamin Simon was a first-class hypnotist who had worked for years with the military to resolve what we'd now call PTSD in combat veterans and knew what he was doing. Broadly he uncovered a similar narrative to other cases, but years earlier. But you have to admit that if the Hill incident had happened to only one person rather than two, it probably would not have become so well known and wouldn't be so credible.

And you're right that you can't invent terror like that. He's re-living something real.

Thanks.

What do think of Barney's impressions of the 'guys?' I found that part quite striking and suggestive of human qualities.

The one who looked at Barney and reminded him of 'red-haired Irishmen' with their hatred of black guys stood out to me. It's the look of someone prepared to enjoy giving you a beating. Also one that reminded him of a Nazi? They sound like 'rank and file' folk...with a loathing/distrust for the natives...human reactions again.

Betty's experience, in contrast, seemed almost like a meeting with a well-mannered Colonial junior doctor or officer. Again, the personality, as related by Betty, is remarkably human.

 

[Trajanus]

....Mantell could have been pilot error and the Michalak case is one I suspect as a hoax.

Michalak was as sick as a dog. If he hoaxed it, he sure went through enormous trouble.

Moncla is an honest mystery case...a classic.

Right.

 

[trainedobserver]

At the same time, it's worth pointing out that we're speculating within a closed system using only our human history as a comparison with the unknown. Unfortunately (or not!), it's the only benchmark we have and it doesn't bode well...depending on the manner of contact.

True. I am often accused to taking an anthropomorphic view of any potential ET contact and I just have to ask what are the alternatives? Our imaginations? I'd rather be safe than sorry. If some cosmic-Cortez steps on our shores it would serve us well to be prepared mentally and military to resist. Imagine if some alien race of galactic missionaries were to arrive and insist that humanity worship an alien societies deities and adopt their culture?

On another note. It has been pointed out over the years that while some technological aspects of the 'alien abduction' experience seem to be highly advanced compared to ours a great deal of it is not. Certainly their behavior and methods appear primitive and 'unenlightened.'

 

[Trajanus]

... Imagine if some alien race of galactic missionaries were to arrive and insist that humanity worship an alien societies deities...

If our recent history is any guide, I'd question whether they have any. Progress has weakened religion, especially in Europe.

On another note. It has been pointed out over the years that while some technological aspects of the 'alien abduction' experience seem to be highly advanced compared to ours a great deal of it is not. Certainly their behavior and methods appear primitive and 'unenlightened.'

Maybe more primitive means are used if for example, they're more likely to survive rigors of spaceflight. Or fit into smaller craft.

 

[trainedobserver]

Progress has weakened religion, especially in Europe.

But certainly you are aware the increasing Islamic population of Europe and the world-wide propensity for superstitious and irrational belief systems? Here in the US there are just about two religious institutions for every block. Sometimes more than that. This does not touch the 'new age' and self-styled spiritualism that enjoys so much airtime on youTube for example.

Maybe more primitive means are used if for example, they're more likely to survive rigors of spaceflight. Or fit into smaller craft.

I don't get the point you are trying to make. I'm talking about the alledged 'behavior' of these creatures or their masters if you will. Theft of biological material and offspring, kidnapping, torture, experimental surgery, deception, mind-control, etc., etc., etc. Their list of crimes and barbaric behavior rival anything the SS could be accused of.

 

[Kandinsky]

Michalak was as sick as a dog. If he hoaxed it, he sure went through enormous trouble.

More like 'caused enough trouble.' He effectively derailed the chain of evidence for the investigation iirc.

---------- Post added at 08:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:24 PM ----------

True. I am often accused to taking an anthropomorphic view of any potential ET contact and I just have to ask what are the alternatives? Our imaginations? I'd rather be safe than sorry. If some cosmic-Cortez steps on our shores it would serve us well to be prepared mentally and military to resist. Imagine if some alien race of galactic missionaries were to arrive and insist that humanity worship an alien societies deities and adopt their culture?

On another note. It has been pointed out over the years that while some technological aspects of the 'alien abduction' experience seem to be highly advanced compared to ours a great deal of it is not. Certainly their behavior and methods appear primitive and 'unenlightened.'

It's a real shit to think about, isn't it?! The Hill's account seem to feature protagonists with very recognisably human motivations and actions. In modern terms, I'm reminded of Big Pharma patenting certain genes of isolated cultures for their potential value in future medical technologies. For example, heightened resistance to viruses or increased metabolism of oxygen and so forth.

The haplotypes of various human groups are encoded with advantages in specific environments. Gene therapy is in its infancy with us, but perhaps a more advanced group of cultures/civilisations would see our gene pool as a grocery shop of ingredients for the recipe of beings adaptive to certain environments/climates?

I'm just speculating about possibilities.

Behaviour-wise...back in the days of the Belgian Congo, it's on record that we'd use a number of tricks and deceptions to encourage the idea that 'white men' were gods and capable of magic. If any of the 'abduction phenomena' is true, perhaps there's a similar aspect of 'smoke and mirrors' at play?

From the piratical smash n grab of Colares to the Hills or even Pascagoula, one theme seems to be a focus on extracting biological samples. Speculatively, there's a suggestion imo that we may have more in common with 'whoever' from 'elsewhere' than all the mystery BS is designed to imply. ???

 

[ArchieBedford]

What do think of Barney's impressions of the 'guys?' I found that part quite striking and suggestive of human qualities. The one who looked at Barney and reminded him of 'red-haired Irishmen' with their hatred of black guys stood out to me. It's the look of someone prepared to enjoy giving you a beating. Also one that reminded him of a Nazi? They sound like 'rank and file' folk...with a loathing/distrust for the natives...human reactions again. Betty's experience, in contrast, seemed almost like a meeting with a well-mannered Colonial junior doctor or officer. Again, the personality, as related by Betty, is remarkably human.

These are good questions to which the answers may be quite complex. One factor may be the oft-reported experience of the abductors putting screen memories in the minds of abductees to make themselves look like someone/something else familiar to them, in order to generate emotional response (usually compliance). I myself have experienced precisely this trick on at least three occasions, all fully consciously remembered. It's always someone I know or have met in real life and on two of the occasions I was at least temporarily fooled, i.e. what they were doing achieved its objective. I don't know how they do it, but they can, for sure. The image is very vivid but it's not animated i.e. it's like a frozen image and one of them is always immediately behind the generated image: it's like a mask, which draws your attention.

I'm minded to quote something Jacques Vallee wrote in "Passpost to Magonia" which I also recently re-read after decades:

"The behaviour of non-human visitors to our planet, or of a superior race coexisting with us on this planet, would not necessarily appear purposeful to a human observer. Scientists who brush aside UFO reports because `Obviously intelligent visitors would not behave like that' simply have not given serious thought to the problem of non-human intelligence..."

which makes the general point quite well. However, I contend that it is possible to make sense of what they are doing when the phenomenon is studied enough: just because their actions do not closely correspond to the way we might do things does not therefore mean it can't, with study and insight, be at least partially understood as consistent and purposeful.

 

[Kieran]

---------- Post added at 05:31 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:20 AM ----------



Thanks.

What do think of Barney's impressions of the 'guys?' I found that part quite striking and suggestive of human qualities.

The one who looked at Barney and reminded him of 'red-haired Irishmen' with their hatred of black guys stood out to me. It's the look of someone prepared to enjoy giving you a beating. Also one that reminded him of a Nazi? They sound like 'rank and file' folk...with a loathing/distrust for the natives...human reactions again.

Betty's experience, in contrast, seemed almost like a meeting with a well-mannered Colonial junior doctor or officer. Again, the personality, as related by Betty, is remarkably human.

Barney, obviously came into contact with some Irish-Americans, that were not too friendly towards him, but American has always been a hot-belly for racist feelings were Whites discriminated against blacks.

How much proportionally were the Irish of American more worse than other cultures? If you take a look at the Civil War that happened in 1860 might be wrong about that date. The majority of Irish fought for the Union against the South, if the Irish hated the blacks so much why didn't all switch sides to the South?

Also, Bob Geldof who is Irish not English. He was born in Dublin. He helped save millions of lives during the 1980's with Live AID. Which had a large impact on helping the poor of Africa for decades. Some trivia for you people.

One of my favourite actors is Daniel Day Lewis. He was born in London England, but he was brought up in Ireland at early age, his father is Irish and his mother is of Baltic- Jewish decent.

Just say Bob Geldof never lived and say he was not of Irish nationality!!

Would Live Aid that happened in the 1980's, which helped millions from dying of hunger and starvation, ever happened!! I guess we'll never know thank god.

The Irish have a good reputation, among folks around the world, like we are a friendly people and we are welcoming people, honestly most nations around the world, i tend to believe like us?

Ok we drink too much and party hard, which is bad for you with excess, but you only have one live, why sit back and be bored go out and enjoy live!!

Back to UFO's. I think the Betty and Barney case if true?

Clearly shows that two entities have some type-of partnership, going on, and we can look to the Travis Walton case as further evidence of that working relationship . The Nazi-Irishman being, Barney is describing a humanoid creature with hair and clothes, and there is strong possibility least my opinion that being was infact not alien, but a human just like us and the race from which he comes has been hiding among us for a very long time.

It just my opinion just like Stanton Freidman says the small guys came from Zeta Reticuli.

I think there is a strong possibility, we have Aliens visitings us, but I don't personally believe the human looking beings are Aliens. I think there off-shoot or something from us, who once lived on the planet before us, and may even be our ancestors? (the missing link you might say) and the small like creatures may turn out to be holograms or machines build by these humans. It just a theory like any other.

I am open to the possibility, the small beings are visitors who long ago made contact with humans. Why do people argue about Aliens in the past, intervention into society in the past would have been easier for non-humans, less people around and far less of a threat to do so.

I think that a Civilizations existed long ago had a number of flying vehicles.

I think there is evidence for a Nuclear-War in the distant past, and that is why today, there is a cover-up of new discoveries, that don't fit the view we have of history.. We probably disagree fine, it just my opinion at the end of the day, i can't prove any of these theories to your satisfaction, but this in a nutshell is fastly becoming my view, which could some day, prove to be true.

Before you dismiss the Nuclear war in the past theory. There is evidence of a sort with Vitrified ruins; look it up online interesting reading.

The places "Vitrified Ruins" are located is France, Germany, India, Scotland, Ireland, Turkey, parts of the Middle East and Parts of American. Some of the most amazing Archaeological discoveries have been happening in Turkey for the last decade, I believe a site was recently found that is over 11,OOO years old. Archaeologists are still being hush about this discovery.

Graham Hancock was talking about this on Radio program, he make a great guest , why he has never been on before the Paracast is a puzzle to me?

 

[Kandinsky]

These are good questions to which the answers may be quite complex. One factor may be the oft-reported experience of the abductors putting screen memories in the minds of abductees to make themselves look like someone/something else familiar to them, in order to generate emotional response (usually compliance). I myself have experienced precisely this trick on at least three occasions, all fully consciously remembered. It's always someone I know or have met in real life and on two of the occasions I was at least temporarily fooled, i.e. what they were doing achieved its objective. I don't know how they do it, but they can, for sure. The image is very vivid but it's not animated i.e. it's like a frozen image and one of them is always immediately behind the generated image: it's like a mask, which draws your attention.

This sounds quite intriguing. Until recent months, I held no interest in 'abduction experiences' besides the physical cases like Dechmont woods, Pascagoula and Hills etc. For one reason or the other, the subject has become more interesting and no longer one I'm as quick to dismiss. It might sound odd, but I wonder if what's being hidden is they are us? Or at least some iteration of us...

---------- Post added at 10:15 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:56 AM ----------

Clearly shows that two entities have some type-of partnership, going on, and we can look to the Travis Walton case as further evidence of that working relationship . The Nazi-Irishman being, Barney is describing a humanoid creature with hair and clothes, and there is strong possibility least my opinion that being was infact not alien, but a human just like us and the race from which he comes has been hiding among us for a very long time.

Yeah, I don't believe Barney meant all Irishmen were racists or violent. I think he was relating a particular stereotype from his experience. In this case a racist ginger bastard!

As you know, I'm not a fan of ancient aliens or past nuclear wars. The evidence isn't strong enough for me to entertain the notion. On the other hand, it's an intriguing mental exercise to speculate how people who look a lot like us could take part in our society. If it was the case, they'd have very little problem rising to positions of power. A bloodless coup could take place within a generation or two.

This isn't what I believe is the case, but like I mentioned, I enjoy speculating in a futile attempt to conjure up a notion that could be the 'best fit' for UFO phenomena. The fact that thousands and thousands have already tried and failed makes it pointless, but it's something to do in the morning traffic.