Lets see now..........
Seems to me reality has been ticking along just dandy for billions of years without the human condition to cause it to exist.........
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Banned From The UFO Collective Google Group
- Thread starter BoyintheMachine
- Start date
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Lets see now..........
Seems to me reality has been ticking along just dandy for billions of years without the human condition to cause it to exist.........
trainedobserver
Paranormally Disenchanted
Mike,
So the steps are:
1. I and my team of neuro engineers came into your home last night,
2. we gased you while you were asleep and
3. transfered your brain patterns to a replicant body so perfect as to be indistinguishable from the original,
4. we destroyed the body you wore yesterday.
5. You woke up this morning none the wiser.
6. Having just found out the awful truth do you still feel like you ?"[/quote]
You've made a grammatical error and a fatal logical one. The subject of step 5 is not that of 4. You cannot kill me in step 4 and have me wake up in step 5. The copy wakes up in step 5 thinking it is the original. I am dead, I cannot wake up in the morning.
To answer the question of step 6: The copy having found out you have killed the real human of which it is a copy, stops at nothing to get revenge and destroy the dangerous cult that threatens to destroy the living and replace them with lifeless automatons.
You seek eternal perfection through technology. I understand that. That is a desire for transcendence that is at the heart of most religious belief systems. Unfortunately it is a unreachable goal as well as being ultimately undesirable.
Living organisms created through the native intelligence of millions of years of evolution cannot be "replaced" by objects constructed by products of that process. It's absurd on so many levels.
So the steps are:
1. I and my team of neuro engineers came into your home last night,
2. we gased you while you were asleep and
3. transfered your brain patterns to a replicant body so perfect as to be indistinguishable from the original,
4. we destroyed the body you wore yesterday.
5. You woke up this morning none the wiser.
6. Having just found out the awful truth do you still feel like you ?"[/quote]
You've made a grammatical error and a fatal logical one. The subject of step 5 is not that of 4. You cannot kill me in step 4 and have me wake up in step 5. The copy wakes up in step 5 thinking it is the original. I am dead, I cannot wake up in the morning.
To answer the question of step 6: The copy having found out you have killed the real human of which it is a copy, stops at nothing to get revenge and destroy the dangerous cult that threatens to destroy the living and replace them with lifeless automatons.
You seek eternal perfection through technology. I understand that. That is a desire for transcendence that is at the heart of most religious belief systems. Unfortunately it is a unreachable goal as well as being ultimately undesirable.
Living organisms created through the native intelligence of millions of years of evolution cannot be "replaced" by objects constructed by products of that process. It's absurd on so many levels.
trainedobserver
Paranormally Disenchanted
It would be "another" by virtue of the fact it is a "copy." To believe they are "the same one" would defy logic and common sense.
Jeff Davis
Paranormal Adept
Information.
No. That's not what I am stating at all, and please believe me, I am no expert nor is this intended to be a formal address in the least. Learning or exploration is not a matter of recognition wherein we are piecing together image based reality solely on the act of observation, whereas the act of perception, with respect to the paranormal, most certainly is. Perception is synonymous with "insight". Perception is merely the process by which neurally perceived stimulus is identified via relative associative memory information retrieval and is assembled to form a composite identity in corroboration with the information available to the process. All perceptions are composite assemblies. Just like every image we see. Made up of many tiny pictures that are assembled to manufacture our vision's reality.
Most think that it's synonymous with zero point energy. Others claim that it's a yet discovered carrier wave of the hypothetical information particle. Others claim that it's integral and within ourselves and is actuated via light to create a relative sentient base line at the time of actuation.
marduk
quelling chaos since 2352BC
Hey guys, sorry I've been gone for awhile. Looks like I've missed some fun.
You're exactly right trainedobserver. Copying "you" does not necessarily transfer your consciousness to you #2. You now have two copies of you.
They may think they're the same, but they're not. Think very identical twins.
Killing twin #1 would still be a very real death.
You're exactly right trainedobserver. Copying "you" does not necessarily transfer your consciousness to you #2. You now have two copies of you.
They may think they're the same, but they're not. Think very identical twins.
Killing twin #1 would still be a very real death.
marduk
quelling chaos since 2352BC
Nope. Checked. Show me.Man, you are really hung up on that individual observer thing. Check out the EPR and Bell's theorem. You'll find more than enough to influence your own individual outcome.
Jeff Davis
Paranormal Adept
I think of existence, and then I think of reality. Reality tends to be defined as the quality or state of being real. Who determines that quality or state precisely? Who, and what more precisely, is reality relevant to? Reality is subjective due to the fact that it's comprised of perceptions. Existence is not because it depends on record. Those records can be flawed due to perception, but we do not have to depend on recognition to understand and record the past. There are countless examples of those with mental illness, many with conditions rising from injury, who's reality is vastly different than yours or mine. Here is an interesting piece of subculture for you.
Maybe Logic:Â Â The Lives and Ideas of Robert Anton Wilson -- Illustrated Interview
Jeff Davis
Paranormal Adept
Marduk, if you can honestly tell me that you are familiar with how Bell's theorem absolutely destroys the EPR and local realism, there is nothing I can tell you. You *should* know all this.
marduk
quelling chaos since 2352BC
OK. Here's the problem, simply stated, by a fan of Bell, right here:
"...as we stated, Bell's original proof was in terms of hidden variable theories. His assumptions were:
Bell's Theorem
Emphasis mine. Note it's made on an assumption.- Logic is valid.
- Hidden variables exist.
- Hidden variables are local.
Bell's Theorem
Also note that Bell's theorem says nothing at all about consciousness or the observer effect, which is of course what I thought we were talking about.
Didn't you come into this conversation stating that everything was up for grabs because of QM, now you're saying QM is invalid because of Bell's theorem?
And forgive me, but it seems like we're counting the number of angels dancing on the head of a pin here...
"Though the series of increasingly sophisticated Bell test experiments has convinced the physics community in general that local realism is untenable, it remains true that the outcome of every single experiment done so far that violates a Bell inequality can still theoretically be explained by local realism, by exploiting the detection loophole and/or the locality loophole. To avoid the locality loophole, the experimenter has to arrange that the particles travel far apart before being measured, and that the measurement process is rapid and moreover successful. The most serious loophole is the detection loophole, which means that particles are not always detected in both wings of the experiment. It is possible to "engineer" quantum correlations (the experimental result) by letting detection be dependent on a combination of local hidden variables and detector setting. Experimenters have repeatedly stated that loophole-free tests can be expected in the near future.[19] On the other hand, some researchers point out that it is a logical possibility that quantum physics itself prevents a loophole-free test from ever being implemented."
Bell test experiments - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
And finally, back to basics -- and the thrust of the argument, I believe here:Bell test experiments - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"An important aspect of the concept of measurement has been clarified in some QM experiments where a small, complex, and non-sentient sensor proved sufficient as an "observer"—there is no need for a conscious "observer".[7]
A consequence of Bell's theorem is that measurement on one of two entangled particles can appear to have a nonlocal effect on the opposite particle. Additional problems related to decoherence arise when the observer too is modeled as a quantum system.
The uncertainty principle has been frequently confused with the observer effect, evidently even by its originator, Werner Heisenberg.[1] The uncertainty principle in its standard form actually describes how precisely we may measure the position and momentum of a particle at the same time — if we increase the precision in measuring one quantity, we are forced to lose precision in measuring the other.[8] An alternative version of the uncertainty principle,[9] more in the spirit of an observer effect,[10] fully accounts for the disturbance the observer has on a system and the error incurred, although this is not how the term "uncertainty principle" is most commonly used in practice.
Observer effect (physics) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Observer effect (physics) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Forgive me if I've mixed up posters. There has been Scotch in my bloodstream recently.
marduk
quelling chaos since 2352BC
We're back to Russell's teapot now?
Jeff Davis
Paranormal Adept
There is a great deal on the table, so it's by no means just the Scotch post tense. BTW, Bell's theorem does not state QM is wrong or invalid. LOL! What the heck is that? It's called progress, or revision. Here is some more perspective on the matter.
My nomination for post of the year.
Jeff Davis
Paranormal Adept
Only if you are hung up on proof. I entertain speculation and do my best not to get too serious about my own views. I realize that there is NO proof for 99% of this stuff. If there were, it certainly would not be labeled theoretical. Just evidence to inform opinions, opinions to formulate consensus, and consensus to validate good ol' human nature.
marduk
quelling chaos since 2352BC
OK I'm lost.
What exactly is the position that you're asserting?
??? and again ?
{show and tell}
from "An Ordinary Evening in New Haven" ~~~
If it should be true that reality exists
In the mind: the tin plate, the loaf of bread on it,
The long-bladed knife, the little to drink and her
Misericordia, it follows that
Real and unreal are two in one: New Haven
Before and after one arrives or, say,
Bergamo on a postcard, Rome after dark,
Sweden described, Salzburg with shaded eyes
Or Paris in conversation at a café.
This endlessly elaborating poem
Displays the theory of poetry,
As the life of poetry. A more severe,
More harassing master would extemporize
Subtler, more urgent proof that the theory
Of poetry is the theory of life,
As it is, in the intricate evasions of as,
In things seen and unseen, created from nothingness,
The heavens, the hells, the worlds, the longed-for lands.
~~Wallace Stevens
"Cigano" by Djavan ~~~
from "An Ordinary Evening in New Haven" ~~~
If it should be true that reality exists
In the mind: the tin plate, the loaf of bread on it,
The long-bladed knife, the little to drink and her
Misericordia, it follows that
Real and unreal are two in one: New Haven
Before and after one arrives or, say,
Bergamo on a postcard, Rome after dark,
Sweden described, Salzburg with shaded eyes
Or Paris in conversation at a café.
This endlessly elaborating poem
Displays the theory of poetry,
As the life of poetry. A more severe,
More harassing master would extemporize
Subtler, more urgent proof that the theory
Of poetry is the theory of life,
As it is, in the intricate evasions of as,
In things seen and unseen, created from nothingness,
The heavens, the hells, the worlds, the longed-for lands.
~~Wallace Stevens
"Cigano" by Djavan ~~~
Burnt State
Paranormal Adept
Can I just say that Karla Turner is even starting to make more sense to me after moving through material that followed. That's some inventive thinking. I hope that creator of said thread is enjoying what getting Banned from the UFO Collective has spawned in this many twisting and turning snake trail of a thread.
I find Karla Turner's work to be the most strange material that i would put at the top of my list as being possibly just the most bizarre and uncertain of Ufological literature. Still, i find that a lot easier to grasp than the dissolution of our bodies and their reconstructions during AAP procedures. I do find that Karla takes other people's dreams and stories as truth and builds a suspicious reality on top of that. From that point onwards it's a devolving spiral as far as her interpretations of reality. Her suspicions and arguments of MILAB events i find to be rather doubtful and involving far too much risk to said military personnel from being discovered. I think the scene where she describes the mythic helicopter that had the the soldier descending through the roof - he materialized through it - while carrying a child version of the man in bed receiving his younger cloned alien self - well, i don't know, maybe it was the Karla video that created this whole discussion in the first place. maybe Karla was a witch and made that mad have those dreams in her house - maybe it's what he saw.
Jeff Davis said, "I think of existence, and then I think of reality. Reality tends to be defined as the quality or state of being real. Who determines that quality or state precisely? Who, and what more precisely, is reality relevant to? Reality is subjective due to the fact that it's comprised of perceptions. Existence is not because it depends on record. Those records can be flawed due to perception, but we do not have to depend on recognition to understand and record the past."
I'm not sure how to read that in light of Karla Turner as some would say that she is in fact writing a record based on the perceptions of some who are not quite certain what in fact is real but are narrating their experiences nonetheless and creating a new record of reality as a result. Many others tend to recognize this reality upon reading Karla's work and then we're in a real quagmire at that point. How can we know what it is we are recording if we can't recognize it? Isn't that a core part of the ufological and paranormal conundrum - that we don't have the words or concepts to be able to describe the things we see, or the things we experience. But then we go on to create belief systems out of them anyway?
July Mountain
We live in a constellation
Of patches and of pitches,
Not in a single world,
In things said well in music,
On the piano, and in speech,
As in a page of poetry --
Thinkers without final thoughts
In an always incipient cosmos,
The way, when we climb a mountain,
Vermont throws itself together.
~~Wallace Stevens
(as it happens, the last poem he published)
We live in a constellation
Of patches and of pitches,
Not in a single world,
In things said well in music,
On the piano, and in speech,
As in a page of poetry --
Thinkers without final thoughts
In an always incipient cosmos,
The way, when we climb a mountain,
Vermont throws itself together.
~~Wallace Stevens
(as it happens, the last poem he published)
nameless
Paranormal Adept
There should be paracast forum awards .