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Atlantis - Mystery Solved?
- Thread starter tokarski21
- Start date
Red
Paranormal Adept
I think we can largely agree that Plato's dialogues are fiction, but how many times has good fiction been written that was based on a small kernel of truth?
Plato is rumored to have spent some time in Egypt. The Egyptians most certainly traded with the Minoans and would may have been aware of the fate of the Minoan settlement on Santorini and the damage done to the island of Crete. I don't feel it is much of a stretch that Plato took the stories he got from the Egyptians and used them as a basis for his dialogues.
I get suspicious when someone claims to have found Atlantis, but I always find the possible discovery of heretofore unknown cities very tantalizing.
Plato is rumored to have spent some time in Egypt. The Egyptians most certainly traded with the Minoans and would may have been aware of the fate of the Minoan settlement on Santorini and the damage done to the island of Crete. I don't feel it is much of a stretch that Plato took the stories he got from the Egyptians and used them as a basis for his dialogues.
I get suspicious when someone claims to have found Atlantis, but I always find the possible discovery of heretofore unknown cities very tantalizing.
soundbarrier
Paranormal Novice
This might all make sense based on the timeframe quoted - but consider that what would an analysis look like going back, say, 300,000 yrs. - or a million years.
We really have no idea what the earth was like - or what/who populated it. This assumes that populations had the same needs and the same "civilization" setups.
So what if :
The whole thing was different - there were plenty of animals and wild fruits/vegetables. No need for domestication at all - all needs were already put on earth.
Now let's just say that whatever you "needed" you could form - from your mind. Technology was non-existent, it simply wasn't needed - you could just "imagine " it and it became real - food shelter clothing company etc.
We really don't know anything before 10 or 20,000 yrs ago - it's all just theory - based on who gets the money to study what - and so the world goes 'round - and 'round and round.
Our current "technology" and "advancement" is based on " things" - space travel, computers,cars, ipods, etc.
Let's imagine there was no technology - but advancement was on a whole different road - more spiritual, or whatever word you want to use - more inward instead of outward - we supposedly use 10% of our brain - so what's the other 90% doing ?? nothing according to the " experts " - maybe we should try advancing in THAT direction instead of more memory in your ipod.
just some thoughts - the real answer is we don't have the answers - and now I'll ask - what's the difference if Atlantis was real or not, or if we find it or not ?
Would it change anything ?? I doubt it .
We really have no idea what the earth was like - or what/who populated it. This assumes that populations had the same needs and the same "civilization" setups.
So what if :
The whole thing was different - there were plenty of animals and wild fruits/vegetables. No need for domestication at all - all needs were already put on earth.
Now let's just say that whatever you "needed" you could form - from your mind. Technology was non-existent, it simply wasn't needed - you could just "imagine " it and it became real - food shelter clothing company etc.
We really don't know anything before 10 or 20,000 yrs ago - it's all just theory - based on who gets the money to study what - and so the world goes 'round - and 'round and round.
Our current "technology" and "advancement" is based on " things" - space travel, computers,cars, ipods, etc.
Let's imagine there was no technology - but advancement was on a whole different road - more spiritual, or whatever word you want to use - more inward instead of outward - we supposedly use 10% of our brain - so what's the other 90% doing ?? nothing according to the " experts " - maybe we should try advancing in THAT direction instead of more memory in your ipod.
just some thoughts - the real answer is we don't have the answers - and now I'll ask - what's the difference if Atlantis was real or not, or if we find it or not ?
Would it change anything ?? I doubt it .
That is just a common myth that won't die.
Do we really use only 10 percent of our brains?: Scientific American
http://www.snopes.com/science/stats/10percent.asp
That is right up there with the myth that we have to drink 8 glasses of water a day or be chronically dehydrated.
drsamisaladin
Paranormal Novice
Dear Dr. Schuyler,
Forgive my delay in responding again to the thread; dinner time here in Italy intervened...
Those interested in the subject of the fictional nature of Plato's Atlantis story should not overlook the more important philosophical endeavors and intentions of Plato. That is, by pointing out the fictional element, I do not want to put the stress there, but rather my point is that Plato used fiction to try to think deeply about matters of human nature and politics.
To get the fictional point out of the way, in Timaeus 26 Plato has Critias tell Socrates regarding the previous Atlantis story as "imaginary citizens and city," others translate the Greek here as "fiction" and "fable."
That aside, serious readers may wish to consult the "Appendix on Atlantis" in: Plato. Timaeus and Critias. Translated with an Introduction and an appendix on Atlantis by Desmond Lee. Penguin: London, 1977, 146-67. D. Lee was a Cambridge scholar of international respect.
Dr. Lee discusses a possible historical memory of Minoan Crete behind the Atlantis story. That is very plausible. What is not plausible is taking Plato's imagnary and idealized descriptions of Atlantis as historically accurate. That was not his intention at all.
I rather like Dr. Lee's claim that Plato became the first science fiction writer by crafting the Atlantis story the way he did. This only increases my respect for Plato.
I must leave this subject now in the capable hands of the other Paracast forum members...
Warm thanks to all for their insightful comments.
Dr. Sami Saladin
Pisa, Italy
Forgive my delay in responding again to the thread; dinner time here in Italy intervened...
Those interested in the subject of the fictional nature of Plato's Atlantis story should not overlook the more important philosophical endeavors and intentions of Plato. That is, by pointing out the fictional element, I do not want to put the stress there, but rather my point is that Plato used fiction to try to think deeply about matters of human nature and politics.
To get the fictional point out of the way, in Timaeus 26 Plato has Critias tell Socrates regarding the previous Atlantis story as "imaginary citizens and city," others translate the Greek here as "fiction" and "fable."
That aside, serious readers may wish to consult the "Appendix on Atlantis" in: Plato. Timaeus and Critias. Translated with an Introduction and an appendix on Atlantis by Desmond Lee. Penguin: London, 1977, 146-67. D. Lee was a Cambridge scholar of international respect.
Dr. Lee discusses a possible historical memory of Minoan Crete behind the Atlantis story. That is very plausible. What is not plausible is taking Plato's imagnary and idealized descriptions of Atlantis as historically accurate. That was not his intention at all.
I rather like Dr. Lee's claim that Plato became the first science fiction writer by crafting the Atlantis story the way he did. This only increases my respect for Plato.
I must leave this subject now in the capable hands of the other Paracast forum members...
Warm thanks to all for their insightful comments.
Dr. Sami Saladin
Pisa, Italy
Kieran
Paranormal Adept
The Atlantis fable could be a fictional account of a civilisation that never existed, our maybe Plato's accounts of Atlantis stems from stories, he heard in his youth our later in adulthood? As far evidence for such a civilisation having existed 10,000 years ago or more. There is Circumstantial evidence to be found in certain areas of the world.
If we find ruins our make an Archaeological discovery in the near future, and it does fit the accepted model of accepted history. My view is this will be kept a secret. This stance has been somewhat proven with other discoveries found in South American. Where you find a standoffish approach, has indeed been adapted as practice for years by History buffs, writers of human history and Archaeologists. There is no mistake it happens for a reason.
I have a fantasy, the Island that is Ireland where I was born. Is indeed Atlantis. Ireland has a rich history that involves the supernatural and other odd Phenomenon. For obvious reasons, acceptance of should beliefs is not acceptable in a modern society. I could dismiss it all as fantasy. If I listen and follow others. Cant', What I've witnessed and others who I don't know, have witnessed tells me there is reality there. And the Poems, myths and folklore from My culture, further help me believe in that reality somewhat. The similarities, in what people witnessed thousands of years ago and today are compelling.
As for Ireland been Atlantis. I don't think it was Ireland if it existed. I'm currently reading a book in English about Ancient Greece. My opinion and I've had this opinion for a number of years. The story of Atlantis was referring to the large land masses in the Atlantic. The accounts could only be referring to the lands within the sea of the Atlantic and the sea of the Pacific. Remember he said the land was larger than Libya and Asia put together. And is was the past the pillars of Hercules. You follow the line and you are in the Atlantic. What do you find a large land mass in the Atlantic. That landmass was not known about in Ancient Greece during Plato's time. According to historians. Our was it?
If we find ruins our make an Archaeological discovery in the near future, and it does fit the accepted model of accepted history. My view is this will be kept a secret. This stance has been somewhat proven with other discoveries found in South American. Where you find a standoffish approach, has indeed been adapted as practice for years by History buffs, writers of human history and Archaeologists. There is no mistake it happens for a reason.
I have a fantasy, the Island that is Ireland where I was born. Is indeed Atlantis. Ireland has a rich history that involves the supernatural and other odd Phenomenon. For obvious reasons, acceptance of should beliefs is not acceptable in a modern society. I could dismiss it all as fantasy. If I listen and follow others. Cant', What I've witnessed and others who I don't know, have witnessed tells me there is reality there. And the Poems, myths and folklore from My culture, further help me believe in that reality somewhat. The similarities, in what people witnessed thousands of years ago and today are compelling.
As for Ireland been Atlantis. I don't think it was Ireland if it existed. I'm currently reading a book in English about Ancient Greece. My opinion and I've had this opinion for a number of years. The story of Atlantis was referring to the large land masses in the Atlantic. The accounts could only be referring to the lands within the sea of the Atlantic and the sea of the Pacific. Remember he said the land was larger than Libya and Asia put together. And is was the past the pillars of Hercules. You follow the line and you are in the Atlantic. What do you find a large land mass in the Atlantic. That landmass was not known about in Ancient Greece during Plato's time. According to historians. Our was it?
soundbarrier
Paranormal Novice
Hey, thanks, I knew about the 8 glasses of water but not the 10% - I guess a typical example of how wrong information becomes fact - funny - I always wondered how they knew that
Red
Paranormal Adept
I was doing some additional reading and came upon the following from the histories written by Diodorus in the 1st century B.C.
"The island of Rhodes was anciently inhabited by those called Telchines, who as an old story goes were the offspring of Thalassa and with Caphira the daughter of Oceanus brought up Neptune who was committed to their care by Rhea. It is said they invented several arts and found out many other things useful and conducive to the well being of man's life. ...But these Telchines were likewise reported to be conjurers for they could raise storms and tempests with rain, hail and snow whenever they pleased; which the magicians, as is related in history, were used to do. They could likewise transform themselves into other shapes and were envious at all who learned their art."
The Minoans, who as a seafaring race would be associated with the sea, had a colony on Rhodes that was established around 1480-1600 B.C.
Diodorus continues, "...Afterwards, the Telchines, foreseeing an inundation coming upon Rhodes, forsook the island and were dispersed and scattered abroad." The Minoan colony on Santorini is believed to have been evacuated before the eruption. The question remains if the colony on Rhodes got the warning to evacuate as well; or if the story of Rhodes becomes mixed with the story of the Minoan colony at Santorini, because Minoan society was a dim memory long before the time of Diodorus . I am inclined to believe the latter. It should be noted that there are a number of volcanoes in the Aegean Volcano Arc. There probably were cultural memories of eruptions and tsunamis that predated Thera. Especially as the Minoans apparently knew they needed to evacuate the colony on Santorini even though they only had a few months warning.
A tsunami resulting from the eruption is believed to have effected Crete and other Minoan colonies and perhaps as far as Cyprus.
Diodorus claims the destruction from the flood was so great, that the Greeks lost their own history.
"...Afterwards, when most of the inhabitants of Greece were destroyed by the flood and all records and ancient monuments perished with them, the Egyptians took this occasion to appropriate the study of astrology solely to themselves and whereas the Grecians, through ignorance, as yet valued not learning it became a general opinion that the Egyptians were the first that found out the knowledge of the stars. And so even the Athenians themselves, though they built the city Sais in Egypt yet by reason of the flood, were led into the same error of forgetting what was before."
Although the claims of a Greek origin for Sais are most likely false, this is interesting because this is the city that Solon visited according to Plato’s claim and who had gotten the story from the Egyptian priest. This would seem to indicate that while Greece and the Minoan society had been affected by tsunami caused by the Thera eruption, Sais along with most of Egypt was not affected. Egypt was most certainly a trading partner of Minoan society and many Egyptians would have been aware of the destruction caused by the eruption due to the influx of refugees and disruption of trade.
"The island of Rhodes was anciently inhabited by those called Telchines, who as an old story goes were the offspring of Thalassa and with Caphira the daughter of Oceanus brought up Neptune who was committed to their care by Rhea. It is said they invented several arts and found out many other things useful and conducive to the well being of man's life. ...But these Telchines were likewise reported to be conjurers for they could raise storms and tempests with rain, hail and snow whenever they pleased; which the magicians, as is related in history, were used to do. They could likewise transform themselves into other shapes and were envious at all who learned their art."
The Minoans, who as a seafaring race would be associated with the sea, had a colony on Rhodes that was established around 1480-1600 B.C.
Diodorus continues, "...Afterwards, the Telchines, foreseeing an inundation coming upon Rhodes, forsook the island and were dispersed and scattered abroad." The Minoan colony on Santorini is believed to have been evacuated before the eruption. The question remains if the colony on Rhodes got the warning to evacuate as well; or if the story of Rhodes becomes mixed with the story of the Minoan colony at Santorini, because Minoan society was a dim memory long before the time of Diodorus . I am inclined to believe the latter. It should be noted that there are a number of volcanoes in the Aegean Volcano Arc. There probably were cultural memories of eruptions and tsunamis that predated Thera. Especially as the Minoans apparently knew they needed to evacuate the colony on Santorini even though they only had a few months warning.
A tsunami resulting from the eruption is believed to have effected Crete and other Minoan colonies and perhaps as far as Cyprus.
Diodorus claims the destruction from the flood was so great, that the Greeks lost their own history.
"...Afterwards, when most of the inhabitants of Greece were destroyed by the flood and all records and ancient monuments perished with them, the Egyptians took this occasion to appropriate the study of astrology solely to themselves and whereas the Grecians, through ignorance, as yet valued not learning it became a general opinion that the Egyptians were the first that found out the knowledge of the stars. And so even the Athenians themselves, though they built the city Sais in Egypt yet by reason of the flood, were led into the same error of forgetting what was before."
Although the claims of a Greek origin for Sais are most likely false, this is interesting because this is the city that Solon visited according to Plato’s claim and who had gotten the story from the Egyptian priest. This would seem to indicate that while Greece and the Minoan society had been affected by tsunami caused by the Thera eruption, Sais along with most of Egypt was not affected. Egypt was most certainly a trading partner of Minoan society and many Egyptians would have been aware of the destruction caused by the eruption due to the influx of refugees and disruption of trade.
Red
Paranormal Adept
I also came across some interesting parallels between Minoan religion and the Egyptian god Thoth.
Information regarding Thoth's origins can be found here:
Egyptian Hieroglyphics: references to Atlantis? (I don't agree with the author's conclusions, but he details the information of Thoth's origins from ancient texts.)
"Scattered though they may be, an interesting picture emerges from the numerous references to Thoth in the earliest writings of the ancient Egyptians--and that picture fits the theory of an Atlantean origin for this intriguing character. Although late writings depict him as a god, the earliest texts depict him as a king (The Palermo Stone versus The Coffin Texts; Faulkner, 1974).
Thoth was born in a distant country to the west which was across a body of water. Its main city was by the sea (Plato's metropolis). The land possessed volcanos and the city had a low mountain or large hill in the center. This land is sometimes referred to as an Island of Fire. (Book of the Dead, Hymn of Rameses IV and Pyramid Texts) Thoth is known as "Lord of the horizon"; and like Poseidon, the earthshaker, Thoth is sometimes called "cleaver of the earth" (Papyrus of Ani, Chapter LXI).
In Chapter LXXXV of the Book of the Dead (Papyrus of Nu), Thoth rules the "Western Domain," and by the end of the New Kingdom he is called "Lord of the West" (Seth, 1912). He is said to be the inventor of writing, astronomy, mathematics and civilization in general (Budge, 1960). Thoth is often called the Scribe (Pyramid Texts; Book of the Dead, et al.); his Egyptian name, Tehuti, means "the measurer" (Budge, 1960).
A catastrophe occurred which darkened the sun and disturbed the gods, but Thoth led them across the sea to an eastern country [Egypt]. Thoth is depicted as the "controller of the Flood," (Leyden Papyrus) and the Theban Recension includes the Island of Fire in the Flood story. (Papyrus of Ani, Chap. CLXXV) Thus it appears that Thoth was once the ruler of an Island Kingdom in the West before the Egyptian priests turned him into a god. The question therefore is: Was the Egyptian Tehuti-Thoth originally a migrant from Atlantis, and did he once rule as a king there?"
According to Budge's Gods of the Egyptians, Thoth is not only an intermediary between the gods, but also an intermediary between man and the gods after death. He has power over the weather, "I am he who sendeth forth terror into the powers of rain and thunder, .... I have made to flourish my knife along with the knife which is in the hand of Thoth in the powers of rain and thunder." He is also the master of the "divine word" and the author of the Book of Thoth which is said to give the reader the power of the gods, although at great cost. His forms included that of a baboon and an ibis headed male form. This seems eerily similar to the description of the Telchines that Diodorus gives, "...But these Telchines were likewise reported to be conjurers for they could raise storms and tempests with rain, hail and snow whenever they pleased; which the magicians, as is related in history, were used to do. They could likewise transform themselves into other shapes and were envious at all who learned their art." His origins date back to the Ogdoad of the Old Kingdom, the deities were eight in number; the four male deities were associated with frogs and the four female deities were associated with snakes. The ceramic figure of a female figure found by Sir Arthur Evans points to the existence of a snake goddess in Minoan culture. Even more interesting is the existence of daemons in Minoan culture who were believed to act as intermediaries between god and man. They are depicted as animal hybrids or animal human hybrids. Thoth is also attributed with the invention of opium; it's use is documented in both cultures.
Information regarding Thoth's origins can be found here:
Egyptian Hieroglyphics: references to Atlantis? (I don't agree with the author's conclusions, but he details the information of Thoth's origins from ancient texts.)
"Scattered though they may be, an interesting picture emerges from the numerous references to Thoth in the earliest writings of the ancient Egyptians--and that picture fits the theory of an Atlantean origin for this intriguing character. Although late writings depict him as a god, the earliest texts depict him as a king (The Palermo Stone versus The Coffin Texts; Faulkner, 1974).
Thoth was born in a distant country to the west which was across a body of water. Its main city was by the sea (Plato's metropolis). The land possessed volcanos and the city had a low mountain or large hill in the center. This land is sometimes referred to as an Island of Fire. (Book of the Dead, Hymn of Rameses IV and Pyramid Texts) Thoth is known as "Lord of the horizon"; and like Poseidon, the earthshaker, Thoth is sometimes called "cleaver of the earth" (Papyrus of Ani, Chapter LXI).
In Chapter LXXXV of the Book of the Dead (Papyrus of Nu), Thoth rules the "Western Domain," and by the end of the New Kingdom he is called "Lord of the West" (Seth, 1912). He is said to be the inventor of writing, astronomy, mathematics and civilization in general (Budge, 1960). Thoth is often called the Scribe (Pyramid Texts; Book of the Dead, et al.); his Egyptian name, Tehuti, means "the measurer" (Budge, 1960).
A catastrophe occurred which darkened the sun and disturbed the gods, but Thoth led them across the sea to an eastern country [Egypt]. Thoth is depicted as the "controller of the Flood," (Leyden Papyrus) and the Theban Recension includes the Island of Fire in the Flood story. (Papyrus of Ani, Chap. CLXXV) Thus it appears that Thoth was once the ruler of an Island Kingdom in the West before the Egyptian priests turned him into a god. The question therefore is: Was the Egyptian Tehuti-Thoth originally a migrant from Atlantis, and did he once rule as a king there?"
According to Budge's Gods of the Egyptians, Thoth is not only an intermediary between the gods, but also an intermediary between man and the gods after death. He has power over the weather, "I am he who sendeth forth terror into the powers of rain and thunder, .... I have made to flourish my knife along with the knife which is in the hand of Thoth in the powers of rain and thunder." He is also the master of the "divine word" and the author of the Book of Thoth which is said to give the reader the power of the gods, although at great cost. His forms included that of a baboon and an ibis headed male form. This seems eerily similar to the description of the Telchines that Diodorus gives, "...But these Telchines were likewise reported to be conjurers for they could raise storms and tempests with rain, hail and snow whenever they pleased; which the magicians, as is related in history, were used to do. They could likewise transform themselves into other shapes and were envious at all who learned their art." His origins date back to the Ogdoad of the Old Kingdom, the deities were eight in number; the four male deities were associated with frogs and the four female deities were associated with snakes. The ceramic figure of a female figure found by Sir Arthur Evans points to the existence of a snake goddess in Minoan culture. Even more interesting is the existence of daemons in Minoan culture who were believed to act as intermediaries between god and man. They are depicted as animal hybrids or animal human hybrids. Thoth is also attributed with the invention of opium; it's use is documented in both cultures.
Slim Shady
Skilled Investigator
wheres the evidence that they farmed cereals and grain ? what if there main source of food was fruit and fish =P maybe had giant fish farms to keep there population fed
ALPHA ROMEO UNIFORM
Whittingham
Maybe Hoag might tell us 
Terjarv
Skilled Investigator
Sorry I'm new around here so you probably don't recognize me but I feel like you are treating real human history as if we are watching Battlestar Galactica.
---------- Post added at 10:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:32 AM ----------
This is certainly the most likely scenario although we have to accept that fact that Plato wrote many FICTIONAL stories to teach morals...so looking for a location that is a perfect fit just isn't going to happen
Terjarv
Skilled Investigator
Interesting, but I still think its Crete and the Minoans with some good storytelling by Plato
ALPHA ROMEO UNIFORM
Whittingham
That's so true Terjarv but history is written by the winners so maybe the details of the location was mixed in translations?
P
pixelsmith
Guest
old news. it is not atlantis.
Google Ocean: Atlantis 'found off Africa' turns out to be boat mapping lines - Telegraph
exo_doc
Foolish Earthling
I thought whats left of the island of Santorini was the most likely spot. If you decrease the time Plato gives by a factor of 10, the time frame even works.(He may have made a mistake in the math for translation) Theres even a nearby island formation that used to be referred to as the "Pillars of Hercules".
When Santorini blew, it wiped out a very advanced civilization, the remnants are remarkable. Sewers, running water, excellent artworks.
I know myth can become nuclear powered and seemingly unstoppable, but how does this one stay alive? Is it that compelling and awe inspiring?
When Santorini blew, it wiped out a very advanced civilization, the remnants are remarkable. Sewers, running water, excellent artworks.
I know myth can become nuclear powered and seemingly unstoppable, but how does this one stay alive? Is it that compelling and awe inspiring?
ALPHA ROMEO UNIFORM
Whittingham
Plato might of had a bad day when transcribing his theories A warrior at first was he and legends a must in a world of wars.
A warrior at first was he and legends a must in a world of wars.
Terjarv
Skilled Investigator
The obsession with Atlantis is rather bizarre, especially when there are zero facts to support anything. Oh and Plato wrote fiction!