April 4th show - Hopkins, Randle & Jacobs

[aNorthernSoul]

One thought I had while listening... I don't understand how one minute it can be discussed that hypnosis makes one more suggestible then a few minutes later the same individual claims that it is no different than regular questioning other than the fact that the subject is in a relaxed state as both can be lead via the line questioning. The fact that the subject is more "suggestible" would indicate that they are also far easier to lead.

While some good points were raised, I am unsure how far you can go in a round table discussing the validity of a psychiatric practice without having a licensed psychotherapist or psychologist in the discussion. I don't mean that to be snide, it just seems rather illogical to me. Also, I think in order to take Jacobs seriously within the discussion, he should have been questioned regarding the audio recordings of his discussions with "Emma." Giving him the benefit of the doubt, if they were sliced or taken out of context, fine... let him present evidence of such. In my opinion, I think the recording of the things he said and his behavior throughout those recordings are important and disturbing enough that more direct questioning was in order as he is being presented here as a respected authority on the topic which seems directly in conflict with his behavior within those recordings. I'm not saying his guilty, but even after reading his rebuttal on his site, I don't think this issue was properly addressed if he IS indeed innocent of any improper behavior. It is stated in the recordings that they are both recording many of their discussions so can he not just present contradictory evidence? He keeps saying there is another side to the story but he doesn't really offer it up besides claiming she is crazy and providing scenarios that suggest that. I just don't find that response adequate to still be presented as an authority on this topic... and that is without bringing in his lack of qualifications to be addressing the inner workings of and possible manipulation of the human mind. I understand the question was asked, but there was no examples offered of material presented that raises the concerns. It seems like the only real evidence being offered up is by the accuser... shouldn't that have been addressed?

 

[jratcliff]

>>I am unsure how far you can go in a round table discussing the validity of a psychiatric practice without having a licensed psychotherapist or psychologist in the discussion.

Very well said indeed!

The problem of the so called 'alien abductee' needs to be addressed by the mental health community first, and self anointed 'UFO abdunctionologists' last. In what world do we live in where a round-table of discussion on the topic of 'alien abductees' and 'hypnosis' doesn't begin with competent mental health professionals? This is simply absurd.

During the podcast there was a section where David Jacobs started talking about the dangers of amateurs in the field and I started screaming at my Ipod, aloud, you are talking about yourself!

What are Jacob's or Hopkins's professional qualifications as a therapist? What right do they have mucking around in people's minds using a technique which the medical community feels is both useless for memory retrieval and fraught with danger of abuse and misuse?

I think we need another round on this one. Next time bring on Hopkins, Jacobs, and about two or three professors of psychiatry and let's see how the show unfolds.

John

 

[Gene Steinberg]

I think the best focus would be on mental health professionals who have a decent amount of experience handling abductees. Just picking therapists without such experience wouldn't be productive, since they would likely have little knowledge about the matter.

It's a good suggestion and I welcome some names to consider.

 

[jratcliff]

Gene, I agree with you to some degree on that point. It's a shame John Mack isn't with us anymore to talk about this topic. However, regarding the issue of false memory and hypnosis, I don't think you need someone who is familiar with the abductee phenomenon to comment intelligently on the appropriate use of these techniques. There is a lot of data on false memory recovery and hypnosis and how dangerous it is to use it in the way that 'researchers' like Hopkins and Jacobs use it to retrieve supposed 'real' memories.

How is an alien abductee being convinced they are giving birth to alien hybrid babies after undergoing hypnosis by Jacobs really all that much different than a person who believes they are sufferers of ritual satanic abuse when hypnotized by other 'researchers'?

Personally, I'm not sure there is a big difference. I would certainly like to hear a qualified expert in the field talk about the topic.

John

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Gene, I agree with you to some degree on that point. It's a shame John Mack isn't with us anymore to talk about this topic. However, regarding the issue of false memory and hypnosis, I don't think you need someone who is familiar with the abductee phenomenon to comment intelligently on the appropriate use of these techniques. There is a lot of data on false memory recovery and hypnosis and how dangerous it is to use it in the way that 'researchers' like Hopkins and Jacobs use it to retrieve supposed 'real' memories.

How is an alien abductee being convinced they are giving birth to alien hybrid babies after undergoing hypnosis by Jacobs really all that much different than a person who believes they are sufferers of ritual satanic abuse when hypnotized by other 'researchers'?

Personally, I'm not sure there is a big difference. I would certainly like to hear a qualified expert in the field talk about the topic.

John

I don't think it would be productive if they didn't have knowledge of abductions, because otherwise they'd be as uninformed about such matters as abduction researchers might, to some, be uninformed about mental health therapy.

Care to suggest some names?

 

[trainedobserver]

One thing that "alien abduction" research is lacking is accountability. How can you have standards without accountability to some governmental body? Without some sort of licensing/accreditation institution imposing standards it seems unlikely they would be strictly followed.

 

[wicro]

I think the best focus would be on mental health professionals who have a decent amount of experience handling abductees. Just picking therapists without such experience wouldn't be productive, since they would likely have little knowledge about the matter.

It's a good suggestion and I welcome some names to consider.

I don't think it would be productive if they didn't have knowledge of abductions, because otherwise they'd be as uninformed about such matters as abduction researchers might, to some, be uninformed about mental health therapy.

Care to suggest some names?

May I suggest Dr Chris French ? You can find his main website here. He seems quite conducive to engage with paranormal proponents, I have heard him on several pod-casts debating such issues as well as having read several of his papers in the course on my research.

 

[Andrea]

During the podcast there was a section where David Jacobs started talking about the dangers of amateurs in the field and I started screaming at my Ipod, aloud, you are talking about yourself!

Jacobs says "I've had thousands of people writing me over the years....I've only worked with about 150 people ..."

So, I'm not a research scientist or a statistician, but isn't 150 people a small database? Particularly given his estimate of the huge numbers of hybrids he postulates coming from huge numbers of abductees.

But what really gets my goat is when he says he's writing a How To book about how to do hypnosis with abductees.
"People who are regular hypnotists can't do it. People who are spiritualists can't do it. People who are in the new age can't do it and all that." ("all that" what??) Apparently the only "people" who CAN do it (is) a history professor with no mental health background proclaiming himself as the expert. Obviously, he started without all this special training and knowledge and even if he has it now, where is the peer review, the licensing board, etc. There isn't any.
He goes on to say, "It takes a special kind of training and a special kind of questioning; and it also takes a knowledge of the abduction phenomenon itself..The problem is it's pretty wild and wooly out there. Anybody and his cat can do hypnosis." Ok, someone has to start, but the guy is so arrogant. And if, as appears to be the case in his conversations w/ Emma, he's afraid the hybrids may track him down through her, one wonders how he's going to like cat food.

Having listened to a couple of his conversations w/ Emma, I can't help but see him as an overbearing, arrogant, man who was unable to even really listen to what she had to say. He consistently interrupted her, laughed at her, threatened her, and in general, could not hear her or provide her with a safe space to say what she had to say. He was so controlling that I have to wonder how much he controls the direction of his hynotherapy sessions, consciously or unconsciously. I would like to see him man up to his mistakes and we'd all feel better about this, but apparently this is not going to happen. I can't imagine that someone this self-absorbed and arrogant would be the person of choice as a researcher/hynoTHERAPIST for someone who is feeling vulnerable, frightened, and bewildered by the unexplained.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Jacobs says the tapes were heavily edited. Unless an independent professional audio engineer can somehow get ahold of the original recordings and test for possible edits (which may not be that revealing with low-quality material), this will likely remain a he said/she said claim.

---------- Post added at 11:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:40 AM ----------

May I suggest Dr Chris French ? You can find his main website here. He seems quite conducive to engage with paranormal proponents, I have heard him on several pod-casts debating such issues as well as having read several of his papers in the course on my research.

Thanks. I'll look into that.

 

[trainedobserver]

... Apparently the only "people" who CAN do it (is) a history professor with no mental health background proclaiming himself as the expert. Obviously, he started without all this special training and knowledge and even if he has it now, where is the peer review, the licensing board, etc. There isn't any.

I can't see how this sort of business is a good idea for any of the participants. The risks are tremendous. Legally, medically, professionally, I cannot see how it can be justified by anything other than a trained medically licensed individual. Just the fact that you are are dealing with people who think they are being abducted by "someone" calls for a certain level of legal consideration I'd think.

 

[aNorthernSoul]

Jacobs says the tapes were heavily edited. Unless an independent professional audio engineer can somehow get ahold of the original recordings and test for possible edits (which may not be that revealing with low-quality material), this will likely remain a he said/she said claim.

I don't buy that claim, personally. Or at the very least, I require him to back up his statements if I am expected to entertain them. Both parties have made it clear that they were both recording their conversations... except the odd time where his recorder was not working and requested her to send him a copy which she claims to have done. So just present a clip that differs from anything Emma posted which would identify the modifications via any editing on her part. It IS a matter of "he said / she said" but the problem is, the most damning evidence was what "he said" in the recordings, in my opinion. Also, after listening to the recordings, I am not hearing any evidence of tampering off hand. Obviously it would require fairly advanced investigation but at first listen, the conversations and statements are quite fluid. Well, apart from the strange circular pattern of Jacob's interaction/statements... though not a signal of tampering. Because he has stated he was also recording their conversations though, why is there a need to analyze it, simply present the published conversations as he recorded them to show us plainly how they differ from what she put out there? He gives off the impression that he is shrugging of her claims and using character assassination to convince us all to not take the evidence she presented seriously when what he should be doing is presenting evidence to support his case on the issue. He should know this as that is what competent researchers do after all no matter the topic/case.

I am saying all this from an outside looking in perspective, obviously... but it seems wildly odd that so many researchers are not requiring research or evidence to support his claims, while ignoring the evidence presented by the other party. Don't you find that odd... or at best, questionable?

 

[Andrea]

Jacobs says the tapes were heavily edited. Unless an independent professional audio engineer can somehow get ahold of the original recordings and test for possible edits (which may not be that revealing with low-quality material), this will likely remain a he said/she said claim.

That is a fair statement, but A. He is free to provide the unedited versions since he apparently was also recording and B. Edited or unedited, there is no hiding his condescending attitude towards all whom he disdains for whatever reason.

He also alluded, in the very beginning of the interview, to the occasional person who slips through his screening process, the inference being, the mentally disturbed, the inference being, Emma/Alice. What credentials does he have to make this assessment, diagnose her, and discredit anything she may have to say by painting her with the brush that she's a nutcase, to use the vernacular? To me, this is another instance of poor and unprofessional behavior on his part. Kill her with innuendo.

While it's interesting to have a discussion on the efficacy of hypnosis w/ regard to the abduction phenomenon, I feel that The Paracast would have done better to provide a real rebuttal forum for Emma's material and that heard on Paratopia. I don't know if Dr. Jacobs would have been willing to enter that arena, but I think it would have been more useful. I see his willinginess to come on yesterday's show as an attempt to legitimize his professional standing while refuseing to enter a real discussion about the recent issues. This is his right, of course, but I don't think he's generating any confidence.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Actually, Jacobs says the conversations were recorded by Emma/Alice without his knowledge or permission. He calls them illegal and also refers to them as "out-of-context sections of confidential hypnosis sessions." On this week's episode of The Paracast, he claimed that his statements were heavily edited to make him look bad.

Does he have a copy? His statement doesn't say that. If the only copies are hers, and that appears to be the case, then it would probably be difficult or impossible to have them independently analyzed.

Also, if she has been stalking him, as he alleges, that would not auger well to accepting anything she says as correct. In saying that, however, there are legitimate criticisms to be made about Jacobs' investigative techniques, particularly when it comes to doing hypnosis, even if the sessions aren't being done by telephone.

But a he said/she said argument won't resolve anything. We need to consider the meta question of how best to research abduction cases and which methods work best.

 

[aNorthernSoul]

Well that seems even more odd as it seems to contradict statements even he himself made in the recordings... if they, or at least those portions are accurate. It's definitely something that I think requires more subjective and complete analysis of what information has been presented by both parties. I really feel if he is being attacked, he really needs to adjust how he is handling it though. And, no matter which side (if any) is correct in this situation, I think the situation as a whole demands attention to be paid to it, personally. I don't think a simple statement discrediting the evidence is sufficient yet the ball does seem to be in his court right now.

 

[Andrea]

During the podcast there was a section where David Jacobs started talking about the dangers of amateurs in the field and I started screaming at my Ipod, aloud, you are talking about yourself!

I didn't think to thank you for that image. I can imagine myself doing the same thing. Thanks for the laugh!

 

[Gene Steinberg]

During the podcast there was a section where David Jacobs started talking about the dangers of amateurs in the field and I started screaming at my Ipod, aloud, you are talking about yourself!

To bad there's no app for that.

 

[Andrea]

I think the best focus would be on mental health professionals who have a decent amount of experience handling abductees. Just picking therapists without such experience wouldn't be productive, since they would likely have little knowledge about the matter. It's a good suggestion and I welcome some names to consider.

It would be interesting to have to have a mixed group in order to at least try to get a range of opinions. What about Dr. Gary Schwartz? He may not have experience w/ people who feel they've been abducted per se, but he's open and done some interesting work.
Wikipedia: Schwartz received his PhD from Harvard University, and was a professor of psychiatry and psychology at Yale University as well as Director of the Yale Psychophysiology Center and co-director of the Yale Behavioral Medicine Clinic from 1976-1988. He is the Director of The VERITAS Research Program of the Human Energy Systems Laboratory in the Department of Psychology at the University of Arizona.<sup id="cite_ref-0" class="reference">[1]</sup><sup id="cite_ref-1" class="reference">[2]</sup>

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Lots of good ideas there. Let's keep them coming.

 

[DVS]

I thought this was a great episode

I think Chris had a good question regarding Black ops/psy-ops considering what the CIA has already done to people throughout their history.. I think it sounds plausible.. They are capable of technology such as "voice of God" I would like to know more about the case you spoke about.. Can you provide some more info maybe another show on this topic ..

Gene brought up a good point, I remember in a History channel show they referenced sleep paralysis or night terrors centuries ago.. They used to describe as a demon sitting on someone chest and that's why they couldn't move.. Maybe the imagery throughout the centuries changed to "gray aliens" but back then they thought of demons.

I'm so glad that video tape topic came up. It's something i've been wondering about for so long.. Why not a hidden camera in someones room such as those little ones hidden in someone's teddy bear.

I really liked how it ended, I like to hear the guys sound like they getting more aggressive with getting hard evidence like video in which I hope they can come up with something interesting and come back again.

What was this even in NYC where people witnessed people floating again?? I would like to read more about this event.

Thanks Gene and I thought Chris did a great job co-hosting!

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Gene,

Not sure how many noticed but the old Paracast theme music is gone now. I love your new choice, the same music Long John Nebel used for the Party Line (from Forbidden Planet).

Lance

Five stars for being the only one to realize that.