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April 28, 2013 — Gene and Chris Talk Shop with Goggs Mackay

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TheJCBand said:
I came here to bring this up. The kind of attitude that Chris answered that question with is doing a disservice to the field. If there are so many good dashboard cam videos out there, it is NOT common knowledge. If you want people to take it seriously, don't act like you're being attacked when someone asks, just say that they exist, and post some examples on the forum.
Click to expand...

Well I wanted to bring this up too and support Angelo as I find he often has one of the most succinct critical voices out here that gets straight to the point - a very economical writer. But then he had to go and use this inane term that betrays any real valid criticism of Chris and points the conversation in a different direction....anyway, the point still stands and needs address.

What are in fact the definitive video or film pieces that have recorded UFO's? I think it would be great to hear from an expert in the field, like Chris, what are the big historical pieces that show us alien/craft from elsewhere in motion. Most of the top still images are disputed. Are there any quality video or film pieces? There is an endless amount of video, but Angelo's point, if i understood it correctly, is in an age when we have so many cameras recording the skies at all times, or on our person, often with an exceptional resolution and great low light sensitivty, why do we not have some clear, hardcore evidence? I wonder whether or not all the video/film footage is nothing but Third Phase of Moon - speculation about blury, out of focus, almost always distorted imagery that, rarely shows point of entry or exit (there should always be exit of the craft from the frame should there not?). Most of the praised videos look more like lens and light distortions or a suspiciously like a flock of birds.

The Phoenix lights is a spectacular story but does the footage hold any water - in fact to any of the stories of incredibly large nighttime floating ships hold any merit in an age of advanced, experimental human craft? If anyone saw those pics Ecker posted of the planes being secretly moved from manufacturing plant to Area 51 you know what i mean - they look spectacularly alien for their age.

Goggs wanted to see video of ships demonstrating amazing examples of flight, especially those dramatic moments of acceleration up into the stars. That's what the alien craft I saw do at one point in my childood and it blew my mind. I have not really seen that repeated in any of the historical footage, though the Australian TV sequence from the 70's is pretty exceptional and comes close to being highly impressive. Could someone provide a definitive list of credible clips? Chris made it sound like good footage is everywhere, as in you just have to wade through thirdphase of moon junk and you'll find the buried treasure. I don't believe that line of thinking for a second. If anything, the proliferation of the video camera and very cheap recording mediums has just made for increased speculation, skepticism and less evidence.
 
@Burntstate - For starters, just to make it easier, restrict any search to like the '90s or before. With analogue it is at least easier to believe there has been no CGI.
Actually some of the UFO docs, the older ones, have some pretty good footage.

But here are a few reasons I believe there isn't too much smoking-gun type footage of 'real' UFOs:

These objects are in the sky, and not often are they very low. So for starters, there is almost always a minimum distance that they usually are. We don't know when they will turn up, unlike say, going to watch planes take off at an airport.
They don't often hang around very long, so there are no doubt many sightings that are so short, people either don't have time to get a camera out, or they don't want to even try as they would need to take their eyes off the object and may be worried that by the time they have a camera ready, they will have missed even an opportunity to view it with their own eyes. Having never seen a UFO myself, If I saw one traversing the sky, I don't know if I would fumble around getting the camera on my samsung phone on camera mode etc, I might be worried that I'd get no picture and that I would miss actually viewing the object myself.

Not everyone is looking up at the sky looking for UFOs so you can bet there are many instances when a UFO is around, but people simply don't notice it.

I always remember that it only takes a single 'real' UFO to make the concept real. Out of all the pics and vids and sightings over the decades, I genuinely think there is at least one non-human made, structured, intelligently controlled flying object.
At least one, and it only takes one. But I stress, I've not seen one myself. Putting myself in Chris O'Briens' shoes, he says he has seen quite a few, and I'm sure he is positive that not all of them were man-made or flares or lanterns etc. I have no problem believing pilots like Cpt Ray Bowyer, who along with his co-pilot, the crew of another aircraft, and half his passengers, saw more than one object over the English Channel, and the initial object he estimated to be around a mile in diameter.
I don't buy a single debunking explanation for that sighting, nor the JAL incident over Alaska. The debunking on that incident by Phil Klass was just dumb, ill-thought out and not scientific at all.
 
Goggs Mackay said:
@Burntstate - For starters, just to make it easier, restrict any search to like the '90s or before. With analogue it is at least easier to believe there has been no CGI.
Actually some of the UFO docs, the older ones, have some pretty good footage.

But here are a few reasons I believe there isn't too much smoking-gun type footage of 'real' UFOs:...

I always remember that it only takes a single 'real' UFO to make the concept real. Out of all the pics and vids and sightings over the decades, I genuinely think there is at least one non-human made, structured, intelligently controlled flying object.
At least one, and it only takes one.
Click to expand...

I agree on the analog vs. digital discussion, though there was some technical confusion between what a super 8 film camera is vs. a super8 video camcorder on this episode. All your other points are accurate and valid. I have tested this theory twice: once trying to record a Chinese lantern with a cell phone, and the other I ran into the house to get a handheld 1080p camera to record a firey chunk of something entering our orbit with pizzazz. On both occasions the objects were too mesmerizing, and by the time I snapped out of it and had tech in hand they had sailed out of my sky view. This tells me that even with our modern high resolution, low light, ease of use tech, that it is very, very hard to capture ephemeral sky objects.

This also makes me suspect most other footage in general, except when a tv crew just happens to be on scene shooting, and picks up extraterrestrial content for posterity. I find most footage catured by so called 'researchers in ufology' to be motivated more by $$$ than happenstance investigation. The irony is that all that old pre-cgi era footage rarely has the access to quality optics and the benefit of great resolution.

So Goggs, nice hearing you in on a 'talk shop' episode - too bad Lance's skeptical voice was not also there to round off the diversity of voices. It was good to hear your desire to know "they are out there" is rooted in a vision of humanity's transcendence of our currently limited capacity for space travel. So in your opinion, what are your favourite time based recordings of UFO's? I read the Alderney Channel sightings and what struck me about this very convincing, multiple witness, with some limited radar sighting, is that for this 10-15 minute airline incident in 2007 there are no still or time based recordings of these well described ships. What gives? None for the JAL sighting either, right?

Is there something going on in these equations that see great witnesses and no footage, great claims but evidence is withheld, really interesting footage but of nothing definite? Maybe it is just a concept.
 
Ok, I was wrong, there is a photo of the two Alderney ships, but they don't offer much by way of confirmation. This is still just a very interesting story and adds to the moutain of other intriguing tales with slippery bits of evidence.

Guernsey_UFOs.jpg
 
Goggs, was a verdict ever given on John Lear's Turkish UFO videos... were they real or fake? They were the ones filmed on super VHS, and showed little green aliens in their craft for about 8 minutes, then the video ended off the Turkish coast with the UFOs flying off. There were close ups of the UFOs magnified. But for all I know it could have been faked.

Anyone know more if these were authenticated. John says they were authenticated by a Turkish university and I think acknowledged by the Turkish government as UFOs.

- Digital_Archivist
 
This was an interesting extension to last week's episode and it brought up a few issues to me while listening.

1. I wonder about the difference between contemporary huckster/showman-type figures like Mr. Cousins and more revered ufological figures like Gray Barker and, to a lesser extent, Jim Moseley. (I don't include Dr. Greer here because I agree with Mr. Mackay that he is more of a cross between a Daniel Fry and a David Koresh.)

While I am a fan of both Mr. Barker and Mr. Moseley, I think their known history of hoaxing and willingness to embellish or fabricate experiences makes at least a passing comparison to Mr. Cousins reasonable. Please understand, I'm not trying to denigrate either Mr. Barker or Mr. Moseley with this comparison. In fact, I think Mr. Moseley's Shockingly Close to the Truth is one of the best first hand accounts of the Golden Age of the UFO culture ever written.

Ultimately, I suppose it's a little Fantasy Ufology. What would happen if we plucked Gray Barker out of the 1950s and dropped him in the 21st Century, with all the gadgets and outlets we have available now? Would we view him the same way as we view Mr. Cousins? Just a thought form to try and put Mr. Cousins in some sort of context.

2. As someone who can't believe and, at the same time, can't be skeptical about the UFO subject, a question like Mr. Fiorentino's really strikes a chord, and I was sincerely disappointed when Mr. O'Brien didn't take it seriously. It seems as though Mr. Fiorentino and Mr. Moody are reasonably up-to-date on the subject matter, and tend to ask intelligent questions, so it was deflating to hear Mr. O'Brien adopt a similar tact to the one he demonized Dr. Greer for taking earlier in the show.

A few weeks ago, when Mr. Steinberg made a somewhat related point to Grant Cameron, I was perplexed that Mr. Cameron either didn't understand or refused to engage with Mr. Steinberg's thoughts about how ubiquitous cameras are these days. In some ways, it seems as though some UFO researchers become stuck in the time period in which they came up in the field -- much like the theory that many people's taste in clothing is dictated by the style of the era in their lives when they were happiest.

Regardless of format, quality, etc., there are cameras present at every single event of any kind now, no matter how big or small. The Boston Marathon manhunt proved this point very well, I believe. Even a rural UFO sighting or crash event, though, would be shot, edited, and uploaded within hours after it happened because it seems like most farm kids have cellphones and PCs now.

On a related tangent, I wonder to what extent the shame factor that is so typically associated with UFOs and the paranormal has been overshadowed by the lust for a few fleeting moments of fame in the larger society. People debase themselves in all manners on television every night just so people will see their faces and know their names. Of course, this does bring up the point that the most trustworthy witnesses with the most rock solid video evidence are not of the same ilk as the group of guys who agree to be interviewed by the likes of Mr. Cousins while showing the UFO video they shot.
 
Goggs Mackay said:
@Burntstate - For starters, just to make it easier, restrict any search to like the '90s or before. With analogue it is at least easier to believe there has been no CGI.
Actually some of the UFO docs, the older ones, have some pretty good footage.

But here are a few reasons I believe there isn't too much smoking-gun type footage of 'real' UFOs:

These objects are in the sky, and not often are they very low. So for starters, there is almost always a minimum distance that they usually are. We don't know when they will turn up, unlike say, going to watch planes take off at an airport.
They don't often hang around very long, so there are no doubt many sightings that are so short, people either don't have time to get a camera out, or they don't want to even try as they would need to take their eyes off the object and may be worried that by the time they have a camera ready, they will have missed even an opportunity to view it with their own eyes. Having never seen a UFO myself, If I saw one traversing the sky, I don't know if I would fumble around getting the camera on my samsung phone on camera mode etc, I might be worried that I'd get no picture and that I would miss actually viewing the object myself.
Click to expand...
My sighting was very low and slow, I had time to get a camera out but unfortunately it wasn't my pro camera, it was a brand new pocket style camera that I had basically no experience with and didnt get a good shot from it. The sub zero temps and strong wind didn't help either. IF I had my studio camera with I would have had some incredible shots. DAMN. I take my good camera everywhere I go now.
 
Digital_Archivist said:
Goggs, was a verdict ever given on John Lear's Turkish UFO videos... were they real or fake? They were the ones filmed on super VHS, and showed little green aliens in their craft for about 8 minutes, then the video ended off the Turkish coast with the UFOs flying off. There were close ups of the UFOs magnified. But for all I know it could have been faked.

Anyone know more if these were authenticated. John says they were authenticated by a Turkish university and I think acknowledged by the Turkish government as UFOs.

- Digital_Archivist
Click to expand...

The jury is still out and no doubt will be forever. I don't think much in the field is ever truly authenticated. But I for one, do not believe the explanation of a yacht, nor do I believe it's trickery, but what it was, who knows. By the way, perhaps cos I don't listen to anything John Lear says, I didn't know he was championing the case - obviously Dr Roger Leir does, having been present. But whatever those figures were, they were pretty creepy..
 
nameless said:
@goggs


still got my copy! its a bit scratchy and poppy thou cos its a weak flexi.

Unexplainedrecord.jpg
Click to expand...

YOU DA MAN, YOU DA MAN, YOU DAAAAAA MAN! yeah! double yeah! That is the very badger indeed. Any chance you can get the recording onto mp3 etc and post it for all (well me)?
Double yeah with cream on top.
Cheers
Goggs
 
Burnt State said:
Well I wanted to bring this up too and support Angelo as I find he often has one of the most succinct critical voices out here that gets straight to the point - a very economical writer. But then he had to go and use this inane term that betrays any real valid criticism of Chris and points the conversation in a different direction....anyway, the point still stands and needs address.
Click to expand...

What inane term did I use? I really didn't want to steer the question in the wrong direction. Cameras also bring up the SLV project - with all the alleged strange goings on there, has anything interesting and definitive been captured?

Chris said I don't want to "waste" (his word) the time and do my own research. I have an interest on the subject, but I also have a full time job and a family, with a new addition on the way in the fall. I listen to podcasts on the topic and peruse this forum. I'm doing my best to approach the topic logically and scientifically. I don't do it to make people angry, and I would like to know why it set Chris off so much.
 
I too think Chris was way to harsh with his reply, and the mocking of Angelo's voice was childish at best. His "blanket state" comment about Angelo was ironically cancelled out by Chris' own comments "you would be amazed at how many people are able to capture footage that none of us ever hear about..." and "there are TONS and TONS of footage being taken all around the world that none of us are ever going to hear about..." Chris how do you know about all this footage that no one knows about? :rolleyes:
 
Chris, of the "30 - 40 good quality pieces of evidence" on 3rdphase could you post maybe 5 or 6 for us to see what "gems" are supposed to look like?
 
I wasted my time and went searching for some good SLV UFO footage... I found that I did indeed waste my time. I figured with all the cameras pointed in the sky there I would see something extraordinary... nope. I suspect a trickster is at work keeping the secrets of the mysterious SLV. ;)
 
maybe not but at least I have been pretty close to a possible ET controlled air ship.
Lots of people might post images or video of their FIRST sighting but probably not their second.. which may explain some lack of footage or photos. I am not sure I would ever tell any close friends or relatives about another encounter. It really is not worth it. I would however tell everyone here.
 
So you're ready to move now? :)

Listen, I've lived in the Phoenix area for 20 years and I haven't seen anything unusual. I was home writing a tech book during the night of the Phoenix Lights. Oh well.
 
We're cursed Gene!
No, I love where I live. Right near the train station, quiet streets, lovely homes, friendly people, bilingual schools. With summer approaching I'll go back to watching the sky like I always do.
 
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