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1st June Show with Dr. Bernard Haisch

Forums New posts
expanding on the guest's background

I lost some respect for Dr Haisch after this interview. Hocus pocus compared to his real physics work. I've got a copy of a paper done by him with Dr's Rueda and Puthoff about the subject of inertia and space-time and reconciling energy and matter with the universe. Sure, it would be a bit above the heads of many people, but from a paranormal standpoint, why not go to someplace that just might actually help explain some of the things that we have been confused by on the Paracast? Bringing in one more God talk doesn't really get anywhere but entertainment of the religious spooky view of the universe, and Haisch could do a LOT better, I think. I emailed him once about the paper and he pooh-poohed my idea (one that deserved to be treated that way at the time...) about aether physics.
Instead of going to the "we can't understand God" direction, let's go in the direction that maybe this is a bottom-up pattern to the universe, not a top-down one. What if every particle in existence has some characteristic that we haven't defined so far, which leads to an affinity for increasing complexity? If so, then the inevitable result would be some form of intelligence, and if so, to think we are at the top of that evolution is simply egotistical, when our 'intelligence' is nowhere near as complex as the biosphere's ability to adapt to change.
Also, this stuff that our planet is a 'miracle' because the conditions are 'just right' for life has got to stop. Our planet has the conditions it has BECAUSE of life. Life exists in the very rocks at incredible depths, some cells are suspected of a rate of division once in thousands of years. If it wasn't the way it is, then some other planet around some other star would be this way or have some other form of biosphere. Who's to say yet whether Jupiter's spots aren't self-perpetuating living entities of order?
I'm not even saying there can't be an afterlife for our consciousness. In a universe of infinite possibilities and an underlying affinity for patterns, any form of order that can sustain itself from the random energies is almost a given.
Get Haisch back and pair him up with a physicist or someone like Stan Friedman and let's take apart a UFO or two.
 
expanding on the guest's background

Apologies all around. Part of the show was cut off from a battery death, and I hadn't heard it all when I wrote that post.
I still think the universe is bottom up, not top-down, and zero point work simply points in the direction of our ignorance of all things small, so we shouldn't explain them with things Big.
Dr. Haisch gets some respect back from me. ;-) DOH!
After listening to this paracast, I recommend everyone read "The Jesus Incident" by Frank Herbert.
"What is Life" by Erwin Schroedinger
http://www.dieoff.org/page150.htm

Bottom up: Net Creativity.
The tiger evolves in response to the available prey, not the other way around. Cause and effect must be held to, or science becomes Hollywood.

auntiegrav said:
I lost some respect for Dr Haisch after this interview. Hocus pocus compared to his real physics work. I've got a copy of a paper done by him with Dr's Rueda and Puthoff about the subject of inertia and space-time and reconciling energy and matter with the universe. Sure, it would be a bit above the heads of many people, but from a paranormal standpoint, why not go to someplace that just might actually help explain some of the things that we have been confused by on the Paracast? Bringing in one more God talk doesn't really get anywhere but entertainment of the religious spooky view of the universe, and Haisch could do a LOT better, I think. I emailed him once about the paper and he pooh-poohed my idea (one that deserved to be treated that way at the time...) about aether physics.
Instead of going to the "we can't understand God" direction, let's go in the direction that maybe this is a bottom-up pattern to the universe, not a top-down one. What if every particle in existence has some characteristic that we haven't defined so far, which leads to an affinity for increasing complexity? If so, then the inevitable result would be some form of intelligence, and if so, to think we are at the top of that evolution is simply egotistical, when our 'intelligence' is nowhere near as complex as the biosphere's ability to adapt to change.
Also, this stuff that our planet is a 'miracle' because the conditions are 'just right' for life has got to stop. Our planet has the conditions it has BECAUSE of life. Life exists in the very rocks at incredible depths, some cells are suspected of a rate of division once in thousands of years. If it wasn't the way it is, then some other planet around some other star would be this way or have some other form of biosphere. Who's to say yet whether Jupiter's spots aren't self-perpetuating living entities of order?
I'm not even saying there can't be an afterlife for our consciousness. In a universe of infinite possibilities and an underlying affinity for patterns, any form of order that can sustain itself from the random energies is almost a given.
Get Haisch back and pair him up with a physicist or someone like Stan Friedman and let's take apart a UFO or two.
Click to expand...
 
d.braun said:
Schticknz, perhaps “complete” would be a more useful term than “perfect” in describing God - and YOU are the experience of “It” (as your waking identity) exploring in great detail, just a small, specific part of Its completeness. Your will is your personal guide ... ... ...
Click to expand...

Maybe I came across as a bit harsh but as consciousness and reality are such amorphous constructs or concepts to understand maybe the couple of hour chat over a phone line is not the most succinct way of discussing such metaphysical or abstract ideas. So please excuse me if I came across as being a bit of party pooper.

Richard Feynman once put out the idea that the universe is in fact composed entirely of light. Actually to put it more accurately, the universe is actually composed of a single photon ... a single photon travelling back and forth through time and space. And of course as we have only just really started thinking about the nature of the reality (whether its created by us or some other entiry outside time and space) who's to say that he is wrong.

There is just as much validity to that idea as the fractal/holographic idea of the universe which is where I tend to lay my hat for a few minutes when I decide to think about such metaphysical ... things.
 
Just listened to the interview and I'll have to listen again to get more out of it. I agree in part with his theory, mostly that perhaps there is some intelligence behind the scenes. But,....

Consciousness. If we subscribe to consciousness coming from us(humans) or other worldy beings then would God have waited billions of years for a life form to develop that which he could experience? It seems like such a long time to wait for such an experience should it have occurred.

Perhaps matter has this property, which we call consciousness, but may be different and exhibit different external properties or lack thereof. By this I mean that life apparently arose from inanimate matter(Naturalism). How?? How was matter able to (intelligently?) "lego" itself together to create life? It may seem that matter has a potential property that allows for something beyond itself in certain situations. I'm not sure where this might fit into his theory, if at all, but consciousness, as we know it, has barely come into existance, say billions of years after the big bang. Thoughts?

Reincarnation. If we are to "better" ourselves in recent lives then why don't we know about any of our previous lives "errors" during our lifetime? That is unless you go into past life regressions (ummm, maybe this is to foster a growth of hypnotherapists) It doesn't seem to me that if reincarnation is true that it would be a climbing the Karmic ladder or anything. This is simply because we are unaware of our supposed past deeds. Perhaps we "recycle" somehow, but to become more spiritually palatable?? This is where I thought he was taking a great leap, as if the theory isn't a leap anyway.

The last comment regards the universe being "tuned" for our existence. Maybe that is true. It does seem that is any of many factors were even slightly off, that we wouldn't be here. BUT, on the other hand, maybe we are here BECAUSE of this environment. We might be here because we(collectively life) we are the only thing that can exist in such a universe. This is the opposite view of Bernards theory, but it deserves adequate attention as well. And some leading string theorists think this may be the case.

A VERY interesting topic. I hope to see some more of this genre discussed on the show. Can it give us any insight into the UFO question?? Perhaps there are some answers within the realms consciousness, psychology, physics, and other sciences. Thanks for the great interview
 
TClaeys said:
The last comment regards the universe being "tuned" for our existence. Maybe that is true. It does seem that is any of many factors were even slightly off, that we wouldn't be here. BUT, on the other hand, maybe we are here BECAUSE of this environment. We might be here because we(collectively life) we are the only thing that can exist in such a universe. This is the opposite view of Bernards theory, but it deserves adequate attention as well. And some leading string theorists think this may be the case.
Click to expand...

I think you're working too hard to put reasons to the order. There are a lot of things which happen in our world that life has found 'workarounds' in order to compensate. These workarounds happen because life explores all possible complexities of itself while the disasters that happen only happen one at a time. One form of life doesn't intentionally develop into the next species. Each species is mutated at random so many times per capita, and the cumulative effect is that the reproductive members that fit a particular place or time manage to thrive. The rest die. We tend to think in terms of some linear path for the development of Life, but that's because we are always looking at the historical record, and almost 100% of the time, we see only the ones that succeeded. In reality, there are many many failures for each one successful variant. Since the failures are usually 'one-offs', they don't fill up the river bends and tar pits which we depend on for statistical analysis of a species form.

The occurrences of living creatures amounts to a white noise pattern that is amplitude modulated by the environment. Consciousness is just one more variant of adaptability that allows us to cross the gaps between environmental niches (savannah to jungle to desert) and later in human development, we managed to start carving out big chunks of the environment as our living space. Petroleum allowed us to push the amplitude of a specific niche (urban living) into a very high spike of population and consumption, while simultaneously suppressing diversity of our species by economic means (military is a branch of our economy).

Our current God is the automobile, and it's a poor substitute for Creativity.
 
AuntieGrav,

Sorry, no I should have been more clear. I'm not talking evolution here. I understand that. What I am talking about is that the universe itself has been fine tuned for life in general to have happened.

It seems that some look at the teetering expansion of the universe, gravitational forces, strength of nuclear forces, the assymetry of matter and anti-matter and conclude that it happened so that we(life in general) might arise. If any of these factors were "off" by a tiny fraction no life would be here. I'm just saying that maybe the universe was not "tuned" for life, but just that life as we know it, arose in this universal physical environment because its the only thing that could have, not the other way around.

I hope that makes more sense.
 
TClaeys said:
AuntieGrav,

Sorry, no I should have been more clear. I'm not talking evolution here. I understand that. What I am talking about is that the universe itself has been fine tuned for life in general to have happened.

It seems that some look at the teetering expansion of the universe, gravitational forces, strength of nuclear forces, the assymetry of matter and anti-matter and conclude that it happened so that we(life in general) might arise. If any of these factors were "off" by a tiny fraction no life would be here. I'm just saying that maybe the universe was not "tuned" for life, but just that life as we know it, arose in this universal physical environment because its the only thing that could have, not the other way around.

I hope that makes more sense.
Click to expand...

It does. I guess it's similar to what I was trying to say, actually. Perhaps when one finds bits of the truth, they find the same truth. Imagine that.

My experience with weeds and bugs tells me that life doesn't need much fine tuning to find a way. It leads me to think that life is inevitable, but it doesn't require much in the way of a prepared path. Any energy, any resources, any direction will do. Perhaps it is the same for the evolution of matter from energy, particles from waves, etc.

Maybe we are all a result of waves ringing as music in a solid crystal universe.
 
Thanks for the great show. It was such an interesting discussion. I ordered his book while listening to the interview. Gene and David asked some great questions.
 
Hello all, I’ve been listening to the Paracast and reading the boards for several months now. I Just recently caught up to the latest episode. I love the show and enjoy reading all the extremely intelligent posters on the forum. I’m so impressed that I am posting this thought/question to see what others have to say about it. I am usually very reserved and quite about my intellectual/spiritual journey, so posting on a forum like this is new to me. After many years of hitting a brick wall with my truth seeking, I thought I’d give it a try.
Some background: I have always wondered about the meaning/purpose of our existence since a child. I started with the traditional western religious beliefs (mostly due to guilt programming I received as a child). I managed to break “free” at an early age and turned to Eastern philosophies, which at the time, made more sense to me and felt as close the truth as I, or anyone, could find. After many years of spiritual and intellectual growth, I have hit another wall, maybe the same one as when I was a child, and am not sure about anything. After a life centered on believing in God, it is tough to face the idea that all the religious and spiritual ideas, practices, faiths, beliefs may be nothing more then mankind’s natural mechanism for dealing with their mortality.
My question/thought is this: There is one thing that has kept me from completely giving up any “faith” I have left. It may sound strange but I am really looking to see if anyone has the same thoughts or can offer some insight. That thing is the idea of the endless expanse of space. There are so many mysteries in life, for which there are a variety of theories that man has come up with to try and explain. I have never heard anyone even attempt to theorize on the vastness of space as it may relate to our mortality. We have learned so much about the universe. We talk about planets and stars that are billions and billions of light years away. What I think about is what is beyond that. Understanding this may not be possible because with any level of scientific or logical thought process. I get a headache just thinking about it. It’s like my brain is not capable of understanding even a microcosm of what’s out there. It is that very fact that gives me some faith. But at this point in my life, I am a lot like Mr. Biedny in that I am no longer interested in faith or believe. I want to know!!! I’m not a well educated person and don’t have any scientific background, so I hope all this is not too juvenile for all the brain power on this board. Well there it is. Thanks for reading and any feedback is appreciated.
 
louis belanger said:
Neuroscientists have discovered recently that light is perceived one tenth of a second before it is seen.
Click to expand...

Parapsychologists have discovered recently that events are perceived 2-3 seconds before they occur!

(See Dean Radin's work on presentiment)
 
I couldn't listen to the whole thing, because both people in the conversation are lousy at metaphysics, but did they get to asking H about good old ufo's? He's written some interesting things on the topic.
 
Sorry for resurrecting old thread but I'm still going back and forward... trying to catch up with Paracast. Anyway, great show and hope that you guys will have more guests like Dr. Haisch in future.
 
Don Keyhotee said:
I couldn't listen to the whole thing, because both people in the conversation are lousy at metaphysics, but did they get to asking H about good old ufo's? He's written some interesting things on the topic.
Click to expand...

Who is good at metaphysics anyway?

And why you ponder that strangely metaphysical question, I think if you listen to this weeks episode of The Paracast (with Robert Hastings), you will find out that Haisch came on to the program NOT to talk about UFOs. He was quite clear about that.

Anyway, this program (with Haisch) was pretty darn waffly in my opinion. Definitely one of my least favourite episodes and I wish he would have come on to talk about UFOs ... he might have made more sense then :eek: (ouch felt that one :D).

ddd999 said:
Anyway, great show and hope that you guys will have more guests like Dr. Haisch in future.
Click to expand...

Ummm ... I most wholeheartedly disagree with you here ... (getting down on my hands and knees pleading to The Paracast gods) please no more guests like Haisch pleaase ... unless you can resurrect Terence McKenna ... please nooo ... nooo nooooooo ... just because he has a doctorate does not mean that he has a licence to spout drivel ... which most of this episode was in my eyes (urgghh drivel in my eyes ... what an icky thought :D) ... so please Gene and David ... no more waffly pseudo-psycho-babble shows, no more doughnut/bagel "jokes" (oh dear ... oh dear, humour really is in the ear of the beholder), no more Nick Pope (ohhh yeah ... one episode pretty much covers old Nick "yes I really am not still in the MOD after 21 years" Pope), and more regular appearances by Jacques Vallee, Mac Tonnies, Richard Dolan, Robert Hastings ... people not averse to making sense and being rational about this.

schtick now with a large cup of coffee so will probably now calm down a little ... probably
 
I enjoyed the show as well. I think it is interesting to note that the cosmology presented by Dr. Haisch is identical to the material which was produced by Jane Roberts back in the 1970's. Jane Roberts was kind of the original 'new age channeller' and produced copious amounts of material by a disincarnate intelligence who identified itself as 'Seth'.

I have always found this material quite fascinating and it echos the concepts presented by Dr. Haisch exactly. In the Seth material the word 'God' is always avoided as it produces confusion. Instead Seth almost always refers to the God concept as 'All That Is'. One aspect I like about Seth's description is that it is fractal in nature.

A couple of years ago I posted a message on my personal blog with a substantial excerpt from some of the Seth content. You can find that post here http://jratcliffscarab.blogspot.com/2006/12/nature-of-personal-reality.html

Here is a good link with some of the basic Seth concepts: http://www.think-aboutit.com/Spiritual/seths_concept.htm

The concept that is most relevant to this discussion is Seth's concept of 'God' which is as follows:

SETH'S CONCEPT OF GOD

Note: Seth uses the word "God" sparingly, usually he speaks of All That Is or the Primary Energy Gestalt.

If you prefer, you can call the supreme psychic gestalt God, but you should not attempt to objectify him.

What you call God is the sum of all consciousness, and yet the whole is more than the sum of Its parts.

He is not one individual, but an energy gestalt. He is a psychic pyramid of interrelated, ever expanding consciousness, that creates simultaneous and instantaneously, universes and individuals that are given duration, psychic comprehension, intelligence and eternal validity.

Its energy is so unbelievable that is does indeed form all universes; and because its energy is within and behind all universes, fields and systems, it is indeed aware of each sparrow that falls, for it is each sparrow that falls.

Dimly remembered through what you would call history, there was a state of agony in which the powers of creativity and existence were known, but the ways to produce them were not known. All That Is existed in a state of being, but without the means to find expression for Its being. All That Is had to learn this lesson, and could not be taught.

From this agony, creativity was originally drawn, and its reflection is still seen. All That Is retains the memory of that state, and it serves as a constant impetus toward renewed creativity. Desire, wish and expectation, therefore, rule all actions and are the basis for all realities. Within the dreams of All That Is, potential beings had consciousness before any beginning as you know it.

In Its massive imagination, It understood that the cosmic multiplication of consciousness could not occur within that framework. Actuality was necessary if these probabilities were to be given birth. All That Is saw an infinity of probable, conscious individuals. These probable individual selves found themselves alive within a God's dream and they clamored to be released into actuality. All That Is yearned to release them and sought within itself for the means to do so.

Finally, with love and longing It let go of that portion of itself, and they were free.

The psychic energy exploded in a flash of creation.

All That Is loves all that It has created down to the least, for It realizes the dearness and uniqueness of each consciousness which has been wrest from such a state of agony. It is triumphant and joyful at each development taken by each consciousness, and It revels and takes joy in the slightest creative act of each of Its issues.

All individuals remember their source, and now dream of All That Is as It once dreamed of them. And they yearn toward that immense source... and yearn to give it actuality through their own creations.

Now in the same way do you give freedom to the personality fragments within your own dreams and for the same reason. And you create for the same reason, and within each of you is the memory of primal agony-- that urge to create and free all probable consciousness into actuality.

The connections between you and All That Is can never be severed, and Its awareness is so delicate and focused that its attention is indeed directed with a prime creator's love to each consciousness.

All That Is knows no other. It does not know whether or not other psychic gestalts like Itself may exist. It is constantly searching.

All portions of All That Is are constantly changing. All That Is is constantly seeking to know Itself, for seeking itself is a creative activity and the core of all action.

You, as a consciousness, seek to know yourself and become aware of yourself as a distinct individual portion of All That Is. You automatically draw on the overall energy of All That Is, since your existence is dependent upon it.

The portion of All That Is that is aware of itself as you, that is focused within your existence, can be called upon for help when necessary. This portion of All That Is looks out for your interests and may be called upon in a personal manner. A psychic gestalt may seem impersonal to you, but its energy forms your person.
 
jratcliff63367 said:
I enjoyed the show as well. I think it is interesting to note that the cosmology presented by Dr. Haisch is identical to the material which was produced by Jane Roberts back in the 1970's. Jane Roberts was kind of the original 'new age channeller' and produced copious amounts of material by a disincarnate intelligence who identified itself as 'Seth'.

I have always found this material quite fascinating and it echos the concepts presented by Dr. Haisch exactly. In the Seth material the word 'God' is always avoided as it produces confusion. Instead Seth almost always refers to the God concept as 'All That Is'. One aspect I like about Seth's description is that it is fractal in nature.

A couple of years ago I posted a message on my personal blog with a substantial excerpt from some of the Seth content. You can find that post here http://jratcliffscarab.blogspot.com/2006/12/nature-of-personal-reality.html

Here is a good link with some of the basic Seth concepts: http://www.think-aboutit.com/Spiritual/seths_concept.htm

The concept that is most relevant to this discussion is Seth's concept of 'God' which is as follows:

SETH'S CONCEPT OF GOD

Note: Seth uses the word "God" sparingly, usually he speaks of All That Is or the Primary Energy Gestalt.

If you prefer, you can call the supreme psychic gestalt God, but you should not attempt to objectify him.

What you call God is the sum of all consciousness, and yet the whole is more than the sum of Its parts.

He is not one individual, but an energy gestalt. He is a psychic pyramid of interrelated, ever expanding consciousness, that creates simultaneous and instantaneously, universes and individuals that are given duration, psychic comprehension, intelligence and eternal validity.

Its energy is so unbelievable that is does indeed form all universes; and because its energy is within and behind all universes, fields and systems, it is indeed aware of each sparrow that falls, for it is each sparrow that falls.

Dimly remembered through what you would call history, there was a state of agony in which the powers of creativity and existence were known, but the ways to produce them were not known. All That Is existed in a state of being, but without the means to find expression for Its being. All That Is had to learn this lesson, and could not be taught.

From this agony, creativity was originally drawn, and its reflection is still seen. All That Is retains the memory of that state, and it serves as a constant impetus toward renewed creativity. Desire, wish and expectation, therefore, rule all actions and are the basis for all realities. Within the dreams of All That Is, potential beings had consciousness before any beginning as you know it.

In Its massive imagination, It understood that the cosmic multiplication of consciousness could not occur within that framework. Actuality was necessary if these probabilities were to be given birth. All That Is saw an infinity of probable, conscious individuals. These probable individual selves found themselves alive within a God's dream and they clamored to be released into actuality. All That Is yearned to release them and sought within itself for the means to do so.

Finally, with love and longing It let go of that portion of itself, and they were free.

The psychic energy exploded in a flash of creation.

All That Is loves all that It has created down to the least, for It realizes the dearness and uniqueness of each consciousness which has been wrest from such a state of agony. It is triumphant and joyful at each development taken by each consciousness, and It revels and takes joy in the slightest creative act of each of Its issues.

All individuals remember their source, and now dream of All That Is as It once dreamed of them. And they yearn toward that immense source... and yearn to give it actuality through their own creations.

Now in the same way do you give freedom to the personality fragments within your own dreams and for the same reason. And you create for the same reason, and within each of you is the memory of primal agony-- that urge to create and free all probable consciousness into actuality.

The connections between you and All That Is can never be severed, and Its awareness is so delicate and focused that its attention is indeed directed with a prime creator's love to each consciousness.

All That Is knows no other. It does not know whether or not other psychic gestalts like Itself may exist. It is constantly searching.

All portions of All That Is are constantly changing. All That Is is constantly seeking to know Itself, for seeking itself is a creative activity and the core of all action.

You, as a consciousness, seek to know yourself and become aware of yourself as a distinct individual portion of All That Is. You automatically draw on the overall energy of All That Is, since your existence is dependent upon it.

The portion of All That Is that is aware of itself as you, that is focused within your existence, can be called upon for help when necessary. This portion of All That Is looks out for your interests and may be called upon in a personal manner. A psychic gestalt may seem impersonal to you, but its energy forms your person.
Click to expand...

Seth any many other gods like him in ancient mythology, that is if you believe in Mythology. Where supposed to be evil gods who came to earth to conquer Earth thousands and thousands of years ago. A race of aliens called the Asgard attacked them to prevent them from doing that. Little is known about the battles that happened. However you have to be careful with this stuff, because you cant verify it with anything. It is all legends and myths.
 
I wasn't referring to 'Seth' as in a God of mythology, I mean't 'Seth' as in a dude named 'Seth'. It could just as easily have been Mike, or Larry. I just refer to him as 'the Ghost' personally.

John
 
jratcliff63367 said:
I wasn't referring to 'Seth' as in a God of mythology, I mean't 'Seth' as in a dude named 'Seth'. It could just as easily have been Mike, or Larry. I just refer to him as 'the Ghost' personally.

John
Click to expand...

Yes i knew that "however this phenomen you are referring to is still a phenomen, just like ufo and aliens is a phenomen.If you are channeling a intelligence if that is real however?. You have to include all phenomen that we dont understand.however why i brought up seth is. Seth was said to be a god, however gods as i no them to be are spiritual entitys and i think if you are chanelling intellligence from beyond or whatever this entity was , it must be of a spiritual nature or god nature, this all speculation, who no's. And i believe your post was about a entity called seth, if it was a different you should have siad so. but seth is always mentioned in the works that you mentioned so i cant understand your rational thought on this.
 
I see what you are saying. Personally I have a very low opinion of channeling. I've attempted to read lots of channeled material and I find it almost universally to be complete and utter drivel. This is what fascinates me about the Seth material as it is quite detailed, deep, and not generally in conflict with what we have learned through the scientific method.

As Jane Roberts said herself, it really doesn't matter where the material originated, it stands on its own as a unique metaphysical framework and philosophy.

I find it quite interesting. I can't say that I believe it, but rather I believe that I don't find it objectionable.

John

P.S. When Jane Roberts channeled an entity named 'Seth' this ghost was not meant to be the 'God' Seth. The entity was just supposed to be a guy named Seth. A personality that had previously incarnated as an ordinary human being in the past. 'Seth' is just a name after all, the entity never referred to himself as anything other than just an ordinary guy in past lives.
 
jratcliff63367 said:
I see what you are saying. Personally I have a very low opinion of channeling. I've attempted to read lots of channeled material and I find it almost universally to be complete and utter drivel. This is what fascinates me about the Seth material as it is quite detailed, deep, and not generally in conflict with what we have learned through the scientific method.

As Jane Roberts said herself, it really doesn't matter where the material originated, it stands on its own as a unique metaphysical framework and philosophy.

I find it quite interesting. I can't say that I believe it, but rather I believe that I don't find it objectionable.

John
Click to expand...

No it is ok ,i was rambling anyway dude, i think too much,i get brain shock sometimes:D
 
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