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Consciousness and the Paranormal — Part 10

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smcder said:
Don't play the guru with me, Mike ... ;-)
Click to expand...

Do you see me as such ?

art.love.guru.par.jpg
 
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@Constance

Responding to paragraphs from a number of posts today:

smcder said: ↑

That's the paradox, consciousness is the basic "stuff" of reality but you say it doesn't go away when we are deeply asleep ... we are un-conscious ... is there an analogous un-physical? In other words if consciousness is basic, you are letting it play two different roles - one is "stuffy" and differentiates and evolves, the other is consciousness including self-consciousness, that's the dualism you aren't seeing in your view.

smcder said: ↑

Indeed the body continues to consciously experience during deep sleep and anesthesia; what does "go away" during deep sleep and anesthesia is the representation of an experiencing self—which is generated by the body/brain. And there is a growing body of evidence supporting this.

constance
Re the underscored, just to repeat, my experience is that I am often present in my dreams as an experiencing self that I recognize as the self I have developed in my prior lived experience; and that in my experience, and I think is everybody's experience, our accustomed 'self', with its biographical memories intact, returns as soon as the anaesthetic wears off. In the operation I described, the shift from being 'out' to being immediately cognizant of myself and my situation, was instantaneous -- like a light turning on again after being turned off. So I would amend your sentence


"what does "go away" during deep sleep and anesthesia is the representation of an experiencing self"

smcder I think that's @Soupie's phrase ...


to "what does "go away" during deep sleep and anesthesia is the sense and recognition of one's experiencing self" {a condition captured in the title of a book on Buddhism that, as I recall, states that: Wherever you go, there you are.}

----

Re the underscored, just to repeat, my experience is that I am often present in my dreams as an experiencing self that I recognize as the self I have developed in my prior lived experience; and that in my experience, and I think is everybody's experience, our accustomed 'self', with its biographical memories intact, returns as soon as the anaesthetic wears off. In the operation I described, the shift from being 'out' to being immediately cognizant of myself and my situation, was instantaneous -- like a light turning on again after being turned off. So I would amend your sentence

and that in my experience, and I think is everybody's experience, our accustomed 'self', with its biographical memories intact, returns as soon as the anaesthetic wears off. In the operation I described, the shift from being 'out' to being immediately cognizant of myself and my situation, was instantaneous -- like a light turning on again after being turned off.

I have experienced it like that - one time I think I came to in mid-sentence - but that makes it a bit more mysterious, some part of me may have been experiencing, but not that part that started the sentence 2 hours before - time and memory come into play here, though ... (not that I want to get into a what is time discussion along with what is a mechanism and what is experience and ... ;-) but it is relevant - on @Soupie's metaphysics, what is time? That has to be considered before we assume that under CR anything goes away (temporally).

Now, the last time (just a couple of weeks ago) I did not come back as soon as the anesthetic wears off ... depending on what you mean by "as soon as" ... I woke up prematurely and they did put me out - but later, I remembered more, I think than when I first came to during the procedure and the coming back to consciousness was, in my experience, drawn out and a confusing affair - with gradual restoration of where and who I was - So I am not sure there is an "everybody's experience" it should be easy to find accounts of anesthetic experiences ... I would think something is known of the range of experiences ... I would hope.

 
@Constance - I am copying and pasting because a REPLY doesn't pick up all the text.

smcder said: ↑

I thought you meant you could provide evidence that the body continues to consciously experience during deep sleep and anesthesia (what does it mean the "body" continues to experience - what does it mean for the body to "experience" here?) P consciousness - remember, can't go away, as it is reality - so the above gets hand-wavy on your own terms. To just say the sense of self goes away ok ... but maybe you just don't remember after anesthesia? Have you done a good search on that? Maybe people remember more later? How would you ever show the memories aren't there?

I would say instead that "P consciousness is our existential access to reality as both our experientially "lived reality" and the possibilities of the extended nature of the whole of reality beyond the horizons of what is visible, sensible, present for us in embodied lifetimes.

So the above is my writing on the basis of my understanding of CR - if CR is true and Conscious Experience is the basis of reality ... then consciousness can't go away and in my sense of it, @Soupie has some difficulties explaining anesthesia (and death) deep sleep, etc - but I did make some responses to that - I also think a better understanding of what happens in anesthesia could support or un-support CR.

smcder
If it doesn't go away when we are asleep, but we aren't conscious ... what is consciousness when we are deeply asleep or anesthetized? At that point, it is not experiential (or it is experiential in the sense of what it is like to be anesthetized (see next post) and it is still substantial ... playing the role of structure and differentiation - that's dualism.) Consciousness provides both structure, is structure and differentiation (stuff) and it is "consciousness" in all its senses ... if it can do all that, then sure ...

constance I'm not following your meaning in the statement underscored in red. Can you help me to follow your thought?

smcder I'm not sure which part is red?

smcder said: ↑

I like Strawson (and Russell) 's non-emergent account of p consciousness as the intrinsic nature of matter.


Here is a picture of Bertrand Russell ("stinky" as he was known to his friends) maybe that will convince you.

constance It's a nice idea, and it has underwritten all kinds of wild speculations about consciousness and mind. Are any of those speculations persuasive, or even adequate, in your view at this point?

You know my position, I find no account persuasive or adequate - but Strawson/Russell is straightforward on the matter and that needs a good answering. Strawson asks why we think that matter can not be conscious? He and Russell say we know very little about matter extrinsically - that's why we have all the math ... but we know much about matter intrinsically, in fact it's the only thing we do know directly.
 
mike said:
To put it as simply as possible its a mathematics function.

The more parts that interact, the more complex thus

This Watch


Is more complex a mechanism than the machine below



A complex system is a system composed of many components which may interact with each other. In many cases it is useful to represent such a system as a network where the nodes represent the components and the links their interactions.

The more components the more complex.

In IIT the more information in the system, the more complex that system is


This article presents an updated account of integrated information theory of consciousness (IIT) and some of its
implications. IIT stems from thought experiments that lead to phenomenological axioms (existence, compositional-
ity, information, integration, exclusion) and corresponding ontological postulates. The information axiom asserts
that every experience is specific – it is what it is by differing in its particular way from a large repertoire of
alternatives. The integration axiom asserts that each experience is unified – it cannot be reduced to independent
components. The exclusion axiom asserts that every experience is definite – it is limited to particular things and
not others and flows at a particular speed and resolution. IIT formalizes these intuitions with postulates. The infor-
mation postulate states that only “differences that make a difference” from the intrinsic perspective of a system
matter: a mechanism generates cause-effect information if its present state has selective past causes and selective
future effects within a system. The integration postulate states that only information that is irreducible matters:
mechanisms generate integrated information only to the extent that the information they generate cannot be par-
titioned into that generated within independent components. The exclusion postulate states that only maxima of
integrated information matter: a mechanism specifies only one maximally irreducible set of past causes and future
effects – a concept. A complex is a set of elements specifying a maximally irreducible constellation of concepts,
where the maximum is evaluated over elements and at the optimal spatio-temporal scale. Its concepts specify a
maximally integrated conceptual information structure or quale, which is identical with an experience. Finally,
changes in information integration upon exposure to the environment reflect a system’s ability to match the causal
structure of the world. After introducing an updated definition of information integration and related quantities,
the article presents some theoretical considerations about the relationship between information and causation and
about the relational structure of concepts within a quale. It also explores the relationship between the temporal
grain size of information integration and the dynamic of metastable states in the corticothalamic complex. Finally,
it summarizes how IIT accounts for empirical findings about the neural substrate of consciousness, and how vari-
ous aspects of phenomenology may in principle be addressed in terms of the geometry of information integration.

http://www.architalbiol.org/aib/article/viewFile/15056/23165867
Click to expand...

If you are a maths person or programmer (Python) - you can play with Phi here:

Integrated Information Theory

Integrated Information Theory

This is the PyPhi getting started page ...

Getting started — v0.9.0 documentation
 
Thanks for those responses, Steve. We seem to be experiencing some "slippage of the text" because of limitations embedded in the quoting functions of the Paracast forum hardware. I'll respond to one or more of your last two posts after I take care of some errands.
 
mike said:
To put it as simply as possible its a mathematics function.

The more parts that interact, the more complex thus

This Watch

images


Is more complex a mechanism than the machine below


Mondo-Hand-Mincer-10.jpg


A complex system is a system composed of many components which may interact with each other. In many cases it is useful to represent such a system as a network where the nodes represent the components and the links their interactions.

The more components the more complex.

In IIT the more information in the system, the more complex that system is


This article presents an updated account of integrated information theory of consciousness (IIT) and some of its
implications. IIT stems from thought experiments that lead to phenomenological axioms (existence, compositional-
ity, information, integration, exclusion) and corresponding ontological postulates. The information axiom asserts
that every experience is specific – it is what it is by differing in its particular way from a large repertoire of
alternatives. The integration axiom asserts that each experience is unified – it cannot be reduced to independent
components. The exclusion axiom asserts that every experience is definite – it is limited to particular things and
not others and flows at a particular speed and resolution. IIT formalizes these intuitions with postulates. The infor-
mation postulate states that only “differences that make a difference” from the intrinsic perspective of a system
matter: a mechanism generates cause-effect information if its present state has selective past causes and selective
future effects within a system. The integration postulate states that only information that is irreducible matters:
mechanisms generate integrated information only to the extent that the information they generate cannot be par-
titioned into that generated within independent components. The exclusion postulate states that only maxima of
integrated information matter: a mechanism specifies only one maximally irreducible set of past causes and future
effects – a concept. A complex is a set of elements specifying a maximally irreducible constellation of concepts,
where the maximum is evaluated over elements and at the optimal spatio-temporal scale. Its concepts specify a
maximally integrated conceptual information structure or quale, which is identical with an experience. Finally,
changes in information integration upon exposure to the environment reflect a system’s ability to match the causal
structure of the world. After introducing an updated definition of information integration and related quantities,
the article presents some theoretical considerations about the relationship between information and causation and
about the relational structure of concepts within a quale. It also explores the relationship between the temporal
grain size of information integration and the dynamic of metastable states in the corticothalamic complex. Finally,
it summarizes how IIT accounts for empirical findings about the neural substrate of consciousness, and how vari-
ous aspects of phenomenology may in principle be addressed in terms of the geometry of information integration.

http://www.architalbiol.org/aib/article/viewFile/15056/23165867
Click to expand...
So the most complex of all is the universe. And then the solar system has more parts than the human (obviously because the human is just one part of the solar system)...? the concept of complexity is vacuous by way of relevance to mentality and consciousness.
IIT is deeply flawed for similar reasons because it is about amounts of stuff... Nevermind what 'the stuff' actually is ...
 
Pharoah said:
So the most complex of all is the universe. And then the solar system has more parts than the human (obviously because the human is just one part of the solar system)...? the concept of complexity is vacuous by way of relevance to mentality and consciousness.
IIT is deeply flawed for similar reasons because it is about amounts of stuff... Nevermind what 'the stuff' actually is ...
Click to expand...

You can have complex systems inside complex systems.

Tell me , Do you think consciousness exists and if so where do you think consciousness comes from.
 
Pharoah said:
And information is...?
Click to expand...

Information is that which informs. In other words, it is the answer to a question of some kind. It is thus related to data and knowledge, as data represents values attributed to parameters, and knowledge signifies understanding of real things or abstract concepts.[1] As it regards data, the information's existence is not necessarily coupled to an observer (it exists beyond an event horizon, for example), while in the case of knowledge, the information requires a cognitive observer.[2]

Information is conveyed either as the content of a message or through direct or indirect observation of anything. That which is perceived can be construed as a message in its own right, and in that sense, information is always conveyed as the content of a message.

Information can be encoded into various forms for transmission and interpretation (for example, information may be encoded into a sequence of signs, or transmitted via a sequence of signals). It can also be encrypted for safe storage and communication.

Information reduces uncertainty. The uncertainty of an event is measured by its probability of occurrence and is inversely proportional to that. The more uncertain an event, the more information is required to resolve uncertainty of that event. The bit is a typical unit of information, but other units such as the nat may be used. For example, the information encoded in one "fair" coin flip is log2(2/1) = 1 bit, and in two fair coin flips is log2(4/1) = 2 bits.

The concept that information is the message has different meanings in different contexts.[3] Thus the concept of information becomes closely related to notions of constraint, communication, control, data, form, education, knowledge, meaning, understanding, mental stimuli, pattern, perception, representation, and entropy.
 
mike said:
Information is that which informs. In other words, it is the answer to a question of some kind. It is thus related to data and knowledge, as data represents values attributed to parameters, and knowledge signifies understanding of real things or abstract concepts.[1] As it regards data, the information's existence is not necessarily coupled to an observer (it exists beyond an event horizon, for example), while in the case of knowledge, the information requires a cognitive observer.[2]

Information is conveyed either as the content of a message or through direct or indirect observation of anything. That which is perceived can be construed as a message in its own right, and in that sense, information is always conveyed as the content of a message.

Information can be encoded into various forms for transmission and interpretation (for example, information may be encoded into a sequence of signs, or transmitted via a sequence of signals). It can also be encrypted for safe storage and communication.

Information reduces uncertainty. The uncertainty of an event is measured by its probability of occurrence and is inversely proportional to that. The more uncertain an event, the more information is required to resolve uncertainty of that event. The bit is a typical unit of information, but other units such as the nat may be used. For example, the information encoded in one "fair" coin flip is log2(2/1) = 1 bit, and in two fair coin flips is log2(4/1) = 2 bits.

The concept that information is the message has different meanings in different contexts.[3] Thus the concept of information becomes closely related to notions of constraint, communication, control, data, form, education, knowledge, meaning, understanding, mental stimuli, pattern, perception, representation, and entropy.
Click to expand...

In your own words...Mike.

Wait, do you have your own words?

 
mike said:
You can have complex systems inside complex systems.

Tell me , Do you think consciousness exists and if so where do you think consciousness comes from.
Click to expand...
Ah. So it isn't just complexity after all. It is about the nature of the complexity. So now you just have to figure what the "nature" bit is and why it is such an important additional ingredient.
 
mike said:
Information is that which informs. In other words, it is the answer to a question of some kind. It is thus related to data and knowledge, as data represents values attributed to parameters, and knowledge signifies understanding of real things or abstract concepts.[1] As it regards data, the information's existence is not necessarily coupled to an observer (it exists beyond an event horizon, for example), while in the case of knowledge, the information requires a cognitive observer.[2]

Information is conveyed either as the content of a message or through direct or indirect observation of anything. That which is perceived can be construed as a message in its own right, and in that sense, information is always conveyed as the content of a message.

Information can be encoded into various forms for transmission and interpretation (for example, information may be encoded into a sequence of signs, or transmitted via a sequence of signals). It can also be encrypted for safe storage and communication.

Information reduces uncertainty. The uncertainty of an event is measured by its probability of occurrence and is inversely proportional to that. The more uncertain an event, the more information is required to resolve uncertainty of that event. The bit is a typical unit of information, but other units such as the nat may be used. For example, the information encoded in one "fair" coin flip is log2(2/1) = 1 bit, and in two fair coin flips is log2(4/1) = 2 bits.

The concept that information is the message has different meanings in different contexts.[3] Thus the concept of information becomes closely related to notions of constraint, communication, control, data, form, education, knowledge, meaning, understanding, mental stimuli, pattern, perception, representation, and entropy.
Click to expand...
But who or what gets to do the asking of the question? And how does "data" come to represent something that has value in the first place. Who says for instance that 1 has greater value than 2 or even that there is such a thing in physical reality as 1 or 2?
 
Pharoah said:
But who or what gets to do the asking of the question? And how does "data" come to represent something that has value in the first place. Who says for instance that 1 has greater value than 2 or even that there is such a thing in physical reality as 1 or 2?
Click to expand...

Are you perhaps confusing data with knowledge ?

As it regards data, the information's existence is not necessarily coupled to an observer (it exists beyond an event horizon, for example), while in the case of knowledge, the information requires a cognitive observer

Data, information, knowledge and wisdom are closely related concepts, but each has its own role in relation to the other, and each term has its own meaning. According to a common view, data is collected and analyzed; data only becomes information suitable for making decisions once it has been analyzed in some fashion. [6] Knowledge is derived from extensive amounts of experience dealing with information on a subject. For example, the height of Mount Everest is generally considered data. The height can be recorded precisely with an altimeter and entered into a database. This data may be included in a book along with other data on Mount Everest to describe the mountain in a manner useful for those who wish to make a decision about the best method to climb it. Using an understanding based on experience climbing mountains to advise persons on the way to reach Mount Everest's peak may be seen as "knowledge". Some complement the series "data", "information" and "knowledge" with "wisdom", which would mean the status of a person in possession of a certain "knowledge" who also knows under which circumstances is good to use it.

Data is often assumed to be the least abstract concept, information the next least, and knowledge the most abstract
 
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