Alexander - UFO's are real

[trainedobserver]

I am in-contact with John Alexander. I think that I like his views but he keeps leaving me with questions swirling around my mind. I have asked him how he thinks that Ufology should advance given the fact that he says that people within the field do not even know the right questions to ask.

That's a good one. I think Alexander is certainly right in that regard. Pop culture Ufology is way off in the weeds and thinks it already knows the answer having not yet even correctly formulated the question.

One of his arguments that makes a great deal of sense to me is the political one. If any government, political party, or politician had knowledge of an alien presence on the Earth they would undoubtedly use it in the political arena to embarrass their enemies and to garner power and influence. Certainly hostile foreign governments would not agree to play along with the United States on this subject and nothing else. It doesn't make political sense.

My feeling is that Alexander may be accurately portraying the current landscape. UFOs exist and are tracked by military sensors but no one knows what they truly are, where they come from, or what they are doing here. There is nothing to disclose. That no agency has picked up the tar-baby once the Air Force dropped it seems plausible from a political standpoint if not a military one. I think his concern is that there should be a funded effort to study UFOs and he couldn't find one in existence within the military command structure. It seems pretty clear he thinks it is a subject well worth their attention and funding.

It's almost as though pop Ufology is the great stumbling block to advancing the study of UFOs in the scientific and military arenas. The more absurd quasi-religious belief systems that spring up around UFOs the harder it is to find people willing to pick up the sticky mess and examine it.

I think Alexander knows more than he is telling but I think he is shooting straight about a great deal of the myths he addresses in his book. Was he kept in the dark and fed crap the whole time he was looking into the subject? Maybe, but maybe he is telling it like it is.

 

[softbeard]

I am in-contact with John Alexander. I think that I like his views but he keeps leaving me with questions swirling around my mind. I have asked him how he thinks that Ufology should advance given the fact that he says that people within the field do not even know the right questions to ask.

I can't say I am at all surprised at how Alexander views the situation. The 'special-people-in-the-know' theory always sounded bogus to me. There was always a lot of smoke, but never anything substantial (almost like everything dealing with UFO's) in these supposed government shadow organizations that were purportedly hiding all this juicy info about alien visitors. Of course you can't know for sure what's out there, but I think the theory that everyone, including all the 'government agencies' are just as much in the dark as everbody else is the right theory to bet on.

 

[trainedobserver]

It seems that if there is some shadow government agency with real knowledge of UFOs it is so shadowy as to not exist for all practical purposes. Any technical knowledge or advanced systems they command are totally useless to the nation and the world. They aren't being used in the war on terror, drugs, or the ongoing nuclear crisis we find ourselves immersed (literally) in. It doesn't make sense to have ARVs for example, and not use them on the battlefield or as replacements for the shuttle. I can't get my head around it.

 

[mike]

I can't say I am at all surprised at how Alexander views the situation. The 'special-people-in-the-know' theory always sounded bogus to me. There was always a lot of smoke, but never anything substantial (almost like everything dealing with UFO's) in these supposed government shadow organizations that were purportedly hiding all this juicy info about alien visitors. Of course you can't know for sure what's out there, but I think the theory that everyone, including all the 'government agencies' are just as much in the dark as everbody else is the right theory to bet on.

I tend to agree, Looking at the phenomena itself, it exhibits a sense of deliberate deception/elusiveness.
This is coming from the phenomena itself, i think its reasonable to say if anyone has the resources to find the answers, Govts are better equiped than individuals, but that doesnt then mean they have found answers.
I like to ponder not so much what they are and where they are from, but why the elusiveness.
I think its a good question, and while there may well be a good reason why biological entitys from elsewhere might choose to hide, like Alexander, i suspect the real reason is more complicated than that

 

[Christopher O'Brien]

Looking at the phenomena itself, it exhibits a sense of deliberate deception/elusiveness.
This is coming from the phenomena itself...why the elusiveness[?].

At the risk of sounding (yet again) like a broken record, the rhetorical questions you are posing are perfect examples of the deceptively "elusive" and ephemeral nature of most (if not all) paranormal phenomenon. I contend that there appears to be an as-yet unknowable, causal mechanism i.e., tricksterism at work, and the agenda behind this mechanism's true nature should also be scrutinized. Hard data monitoring is an obvious next step, but we need to knuckle down and fully examine the implications of what appears to be a trickster-ish agenda.

 

[mike]

I guess when i look at the phrase trickster, my problem is the causal relationship.
To me the word trickster implys playing tricks for the sake of playing tricks, ie no real reason at all, just for the fun and gratification of the "trickster"
For me trickster implys the sorts of pranks ellen degeneres plays on her guests for the purpose of getting a laugh.
Where as i think the motive behind the deception is likely to be deeper than that.
Thats my only issue with the word trickster, to me it implys prankster, that is somewhat frivilous in application
Where as i think the motivation behind the elusive nature of the phenomena is more serious in nature

Clearly reading your post above we are on the same page.

If we accept that deception is a large part of the equation, then identifying the "illusion" will always be fruitless, thats the very purpose of the illusion, it is perhaps far more useful to explore the implications of the need for an illusion and not the manifestation of the illusion itself

To me one answer seems logical, that some aspect of the reality behind the phenomena is being hidden, the next question is then what would it be, why would it be hidden. Is there a need to hide an ETH reality ?
To me it seems that in of itself doesnt deserve the degree of secrecy we observe.
But then i am looking at this from a single perspective, a number of reasons are touted as to why ET's would hide, and while many seem logical, it strikes me there are other scenarios that would attract a higher order of probability in terms of a need to hide.
Time travelling humans for example.

For example of the two possibility ET's visting earth, and TT humans visiting the past, imo its the second scenario that has a greater need to hide its reality

Not suggesting its one or the other, if i had to guess id say TT humans and ET are here, That our notion of linear time is limited by our being stuck in it.

We are fish in fish bowls, able to describe the bowl and its contents, perhaps to limited degree the room the bowl is in, but unable to describe anything outside the house itself

Another scenario i'm partial to, is that conciousness is the rarest element in the universe, that no two are ever alike.
That because of that its not allowed to go to waste, that what we perceive as our terrestrial existance, birth life and death, is only the larval stage of a larger reality. That what we (are encouraged to ?) see is akin to tadpoles in a pond, There is no need for the tadpoles to know they will become frogs, they will find out in time

There are also negative scenarios, for example that our conciousness is being taken at death to animate cloned biobots which are then used as a slave workforce by those who create them.
It would be prudent not to ever let the species you are exploiting know this, as they may decide to destroy the hatchery in order to spare future generations such a fate.
An analogy would be if every chicken on the planet comitted suicide one day, they would become extinct and so no one would eat chicken ever again

 

[bbridges]

That's good 'food' for thought. If the ultimate game is the development of consciousness,being directed by itself, so to speak, the interaction of various individual consciousnesses, existing at various degrees of awareness of itself could create quite a rich tapestry. The aspect of that consciousness that experiences itself in a somewhat limited though evolving state and experiencing what it regards as 'free will,' could manifest itself as the 'world field', so to speak, where new information must be 'discovered' to expand. That, of course begs the question of the ultimate purpose of the game. Perhaps there is no 'ultimate purpose', just the inevitable arrival of total consciousness of all of its conscious 'parts, resulting in the cessation of the game. And then , perhaps, it starts anew, like an inbreath/outbreath, or expansion/contraction kind of thing. We like entertainment, so perhaps that what pure consciousness is doing, ultimately. Like many games we play, it ain't over til the last player finishes.

 

[Randall]

At the risk of sounding (yet again) like a broken record, the rhetorical questions you are posing are perfect examples of the deceptively "elusive" and ephemeral nature of most (if not all) paranormal phenomenon. I contend that there appears to be an as-yet unknowable, causal mechanism i.e., tricksterism at work, and the agenda behind this mechanism's true nature should also be scrutinized. Hard data monitoring is an obvious next step, but we need to knuckle down and fully examine the implications of what appears to be a trickster-ish agenda.

Well when it comes to high security decentralized, compartmentalized black projects you don't have to go beyond human deception, intrigue and spy games to explain trickster type scenarios going on.

However I must admit that this is the first time I've considered how the elusiveness of; or at the very least, the transient nature of the various phenomena is consistent across the array of experiences. This again ( not meaning to sound like a broken record myself ), is further circumstantial evidence that we may be dealing with a highly evolved and technologically advanced alien presence that is responsible for the really weird stuff. Why aliens? Because the high technology is at the top of the list of requirements for pulling it all off. Obviously some of this stuff we can't do ourselves. Of course that is presuming we are keeping the whole paradigm within our spacetime. Once we go beyond that and start dealing with something waaaay out there ... then what kind of puppet master is running the show ... and for whose benefit? Perhaps we are nothing more than unsuspecting participants in some vast theatre of the oppressed?

 

[softbeard]

...are perfect examples of the deceptively "elusive" and ephemeral nature of most (if not all) paranormal phenomenon. I contend that there appears to be an as-yet unknowable, causal mechanism i.e., tricksterism at work, and the agenda behind this mechanism's true nature should also be scrutinized.

I've mentioned this before, but all these arguments about tricksters are based on implicit assumptions which are not necessarily true. Mainly, the assumptions implicit in the 'trickster' argument is that we (ie., humans) are somehow a target or object of attention of whatever this 'alien' intelligence is. This may not necessarily be the case. I know it's hard for us to conceive that any 'alien' visitor would would not immediately recognize us as the dominant species on this planet, but it should be considered. 'They' may not give a whit about us, or even recognize that we exist or that we are taking notice of them. For all we know, they may recognize our cows as the major intelligence on earth and are trying to establish dialogue with our bovine herds instead of doing the 'obvious' and landing on the White House lawn.
I think it's very important to try to recognize all assumptions we are making first, before proceeding to draw any types of conclusions from the situation we face.

 

[mike]

We are not the only tool users on earth, other species use tools too, Apes, monkeys, otters, birds even insects.
But we are the only species who create and use external energy sources, this imo would stick out like a sore thumb to another visiting species, given that to get here they too would have to create and utilise an external energy source to do so

 

[softbeard]

True enough; all assuming 'their' thinking and logic is more or less in line with ours. From all indications, the assumption that 'their' thinking and logic is similar/compatible to ours is also plausible; at least in my mind. From that, you probably can assume that we stick out.

 

[bbridges]

So it is reasonable to assume that there exists no already existing effort to study such an obvious potential threat? That, reasonable? Should I feel assuaged or embarrassed by this state of affairs?

 

[trainedobserver]

So it is reasonable to assume that there exists no already existing effort to study such an obvious potential threat? That, reasonable? Should I feel assuaged or embarrassed by this state of affairs?

No, it isn't reasonable. In fact, ignoring these things would seem to be a criminal act by both the government and the military. A great negligence of duty. However, the word threat is really key in surmising the situation. We are presented with a scenario where uncorrelated targets that do not fit a threat parameter are being disregarded by the system. These things come and go and by and large do not affect the day to day lives the majority of people on Earth. The United States Military is currently in a resource draining perpetual state of war with a nebulous network of bad actors with a stone age ideology. Are we to believe they are simultaneously engaged in a secret war with some other adversary who must be god-like in comparison? It causes the mind to bog down in the incongruousness of it all.

I'm no expert by any means. I am just an armchair general. But it does seem militarily inconceivable that unidentified objects violating national airspace would be ignored or that unidentified objects interfering with the nuclear weapons arsenal would not be pursued with great prejudice. Why aren't they though? Either they think they have identified these things or they do not fit the parameters of a threat and they have other things to worry about. Given how screwed up world leadership is, is it that big of a stretch seeing them ignore and obfuscate a problem they feel they can't do anything about?

I'm perplexed and mystified by all of it to tell you the truth. I think Alexander had the skill set and opportunity to find what he was looking for if it could be found. You have to assume that he either did, was read in and subsequently cannot reveal the whole truth, or that for whatever reason, he did not find it although what he did find led him to believe it was not or could not exist.

I think Alexander makes much more sense than 99% of what is being promoted by pop ufology today. I may not agree with everything he says, or what to agree with it, but he has a unique experience that gives him perspective that most won't be able to duplicate and therefore it is a valuable one to consider.

 

[paulb2b2]

Well IF the UFO Phenomenon equates to ETI nuts n bolts craft (which I am skeptical about) and IF they mess about with nuclear weapons then I think that the following extract from Robert Hastings would answer your question. Hastings words (below) should satisfy anyone who (a) believes in ETI nuts n bolts craft reality, (b) who wonders why the military dont respond (it would be like apes trying to outsmart humans) and (c) wonders why theres no official disclosure.
"If extraterrestrials are here then governments have everything to lose and nothing to gain by admitting that [fact], [i.e.,] without knowing the full intentions of whoever might be here. Are they hostile? We dont know. Do they intend some nefarious activities towards humankind? We dont know. So basically the odds that the U.S. government is going to admit that there are craft flying around airspace that run rings around our own aircraft literally [...] and we hope theyre friendly because we can't control them and [...] they seem to be interested in our nuclear weapons and seem to be shutting them down from time to time. The government has everything to gain by keeping quiet about that." (Hastings CNN Interview)

 

[softbeard]

... In fact, ignoring these things would seem to be a criminal act by both the government and the military. A great negligence of duty. However, the word threat is really key in surmising the situation...

Fair enough. But now this begs the question; what more, as a practical matter, is there to be done? Set up an 'official' world department of UFO investigations under the UN? That may be a good plot line for the next Hollywood movie, but I think you know where making an serious attempt at a proposal for something like this would wind up. And even if it were done, what would an agency like this accomplish?
First, we have to begin by asking what are our goals here. In my mind, it's obvious whatever goals are decided upon, they should be strictly passive at this time. That means information-gathering. Really, that's the only thing that can be done right now, as I see it, until we can better assess the situation. And, this is something that has been done in the past and is being done now by governments. Other than this, we can all talk about the subject, as we are doing now, and try to bring it more out in the open to be taken seriously.
Of course we run into trouble with that last part, but we have only ourselves to blame for that. So, it seems like I'm saying at least I don't have any bright ideas as to do much more than what we're already doing right now.

 

[Trajanus]

Well IF the UFO Phenomenon equates to ETI nuts n bolts craft (which I am skeptical about)

I don't know what else can cause radar sightings or landing marks.

"If extraterrestrials are here then governments have everything to lose and nothing to gain by admitting that [fact], [i.e.,] without knowing the full intentions of whoever might be here. Are they hostile? We dont know. Do they intend some nefarious activities towards humankind? We dont know. So basically the odds that the U.S. government is going to admit that there are craft flying around airspace that run rings around our own aircraft literally [...] and we hope theyre friendly because we can't control them and [...] they seem to be interested in our nuclear weapons and seem to be shutting them down from time to time. The government has everything to gain by keeping quiet about that." (Hastings CNN Interview)

I think the government by now has a fairly good idea of alien intentions, which aren't favorable; it just isn't in a position to do anything decisive, yet. Telling the public dangerous ETs are here but there's practically nothing they can do would only cause worry or panic.

 

[trainedobserver]

Telling the public dangerous ETs are here but there's practically nothing they can do would only cause worry or panic.

When this argument gets offered up I wonder just why those who are engaged in the secret war and cover-up aren't worried to the point of distraction and panicked themselves? How many 100s, 1000s, 10,000s, or millions of military and government personnel would have to know about this if it were true? I'm thinking a whole hell of a lot of people would have to know and therefore be psychologically devastated themselves. Those people get out of the military and government service at some point and have to deal with it just like the rest of us would.

 

[bbridges]

It's a good question. How many people worked on the Manhattan Project without having a clue what they were working on? The site in Tennessee that employed thousands in the uranium refining centrifuges lived in their own community and never suspected what they were actually doing in the two largest facilities ever constructed up to that point. Scientists who were deeply involved were in fact very disturbed-even devastated- by their own actions. Compartmentalization was used quite successfully in WWll by the British, Americans and Germans on many projects. We can assume that it continues, de riguer in all projects of a highly sensitive nature, don't you think, Ricky? I wouldn't necessarily embrace a 'secret war', But preparations for such, and deaths in the process could occur accidentally, or necessary to maintain security.This isn't to imply that I endorse any particular scenario, but just to point out some historically relevant precedents, and reasonable speculation based on prior actions

 

[Trajanus]

When this argument gets offered up I wonder just why those who are engaged in the secret war and cover-up aren't worried to the point of distraction and panicked themselves?

I'd assume, as a rule, military people can take it better than civilians and this sort of stoicism is a key criterion for allowing some in on the secret.

 

[softbeard]

How many people worked on the Manhattan Project without having a clue what they were working on? The site in Tennessee that employed thousands in the uranium refining centrifuges lived in their own community and never suspected what they were actually doing in the two largest facilities ever constructed up to that point. Scientists who were deeply involved were in fact very disturbed-even devastated- by their own actions.

I don't see this as a fair comparison. First, back then, it was wartime. A time when most people understood the necessity of maintaining tight security; especially when dealing with a subject like the atomic bomb. I don't think anybody, even if involved in work where he/she has knowledge of some 'alien presence', would see the necessity of maintaining absolute secrecy on anywhere the same level as atomic secrets. Don't forget, even in WWII, many pilots were seeing 'foo fighters', talking and spreading rumors, and no one was seriously trying to cover it up.
Finally, even with atomic secrets, how long did this the secrecy last? Secrets were kept on a temporary basis, while absolute necessity was there only. Why would it be any different in this case?