Your Paracast Newsletter — September 22, 2013

[Gene Steinberg]

THE PARACAST NEWSLETTER
September 22, 2013

Discover the “Real” Area 51 on The Paracast

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Schmitt’s Site: Roswell Investigator | Roswell Investigator

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Was There Early Government infiltration in the UFO Field?
By Gene Steinberg

As most of you know, I first got heavily involved in the UFO field in the 1960s, and, over the years, met many of the so-called famous investigators. I even interviewed a few, although some of those interviews have vanished as the result of defunct publications, or simply manuscripts that didn't survive moves from one part of the country another.

Perhaps the most famous early figure with which I came in occasional contact with was Major Donald E. Keyhoe. I first met him near his home in Luray, VA in the mid-1960s, accompanied by several fellow UFO enthusiasts, including Allen Greenfield and Rick Hilberg.

Now I had looked forward to meeting Keyhoe, since I got interested in UFOs as the result of reading some of his best-selling books. Even in the early days, Keyhoe was an outspoken activist trying to convince the U.S. Congress to hold hearings on the flying saucers.

In the 21st century, such hearings don't amount to a hill of beans, but the U.S. government was taken seriously in those days, and Keyhoe was clearly convinced he'd actually get somewhere if only enough members of Congress would take notice and treat the subject seriously. He always believed that the Air Force and other agencies had guilty knowledge that UFOs were real and extraterrestrial. This is a belief Keyhoe appeared to hold until the end of his days.

In the 1960s, Keyhoe most important task was serving as Director of a worldwide flying saucer club, NICAP, short for the National Investigations Committee on Aerial Phenomena. Keyhoe and some of his ex-military pals firstr took control of the group in the 1950s, when the original founder, physicist Thomas Townsend Brown, got the group into financial difficulty and was forced by his board to take a hike.

Keyhoe's presence brought even more ex-military onto the board, including a classmate of his from the Naval Academy, one Vice Admiral Roscoe H. Hillenkoetter, who was the first head of the CIA.

To Keyhoe, having a board heavily laden with former military figures was a matter of pride. They were his friends and fellow travelers. But to the some, the state of affairs seemed just a tad suspicious. There were even rumors, not confirmed I might add, that NICAP was merely a government front designed to redirect interest in UFOs from organizations that were attempting to make real progress in finding out what was going on. It seemed that NICAP was mostly collecting evidence to help advance Keyhoe's case for Congressional hearings, as if that would be the magic bullet that would force disclosure.

Unfortunately, Keyhoe wasn't considered a terribly good manager either, and NICAP continued to flail and flounder. The monthly newsletter, The UFO Investigator, was frequently late, and there were repeated pleas from Keyhoe for membership drives and donations to help the cause. More to the point, Keyhoe was not a daily presence at NICAP's headquarters either; at best being director was a part-time job.

So that was NICAP. But Major Keyhoe was always the gentleman, friendly and sincere. If his organization was actually a front for disinformation or other nefarious activities, I felt that perhaps he was simply out of the loop. Maybe he was just being manipulated.

In any case, on the day after our meeting with Keyhoe, my friends and I visited NICAP's unpretentious offices, off DuPont Circle in Washington, D.C. Upon entering, the manager, Richard H. Hall, announced that I had become persona non grata to the organization and, with shaking finger, ordered me to leave. His words, "You're not welcome here!"

I was half tempted to assert my rights to visit the organization as a paying member, but not wishing to start a disturbance, my friends and I departed.

Now I always suspect that what got Hall so riled up about me was my friendship with Jim Moseley, with whom he had been feuding for curious reasons. So on one occasion, Moseley telephoned Hall and asked him about something in connection with a story he had planned to run in "Saucer News." But Hall became irate and accused Moseley of taping the conversation. Now those of us who knew Moseley well realize that he didn't own a tape recorder at he time, and was too much of a luddite to have much awareness of the process of recording a conversation, any conversation. To the end of his days, he used standard electric typewriters. He never bought a personal computer, and he never even set up an answering machine or voicemail system on his phone. Forget about cell phones and tablets.

Years later, I encountered Hall at a UFO conference, and we buried the hatchet. Hall no doubt understood that his emotional behavior in the early days didn't advance anyone's cause, and only created more animosity in a field that was already rife with personal quarrels and far too much nastiness.

All right, NICAP is long gone, and so is Keyhoe and Hall. In passing, I actually hoped to have Hall on The Paracast a year or two before his passing in 2009, but he was already too ill to commit himself to an interview.

These days, some still believe that NICAP had a nefarious purpose, and that Keyhoe and his associates, including Hall, may have been working to deflect UFO investigation from areas where it could do some good.

I suppose anything is possible, but I prefer to believe that Donald Keyhoe, Richard Hall and even NICAP sincerely attempted to make a difference. Was there some sort of government infiltration involved? Well, the presence of ex-military officers did raise suspicions, but maybe it was just too obvious.

You'd think that, if the government wanted to take control of a UFO organization, they'd be far more subtle about it. They would, instead, get involved in activities that did not have any tinge of a possible military connection. Why do the obvious -- or was that just a trick to divert everyone's attention? NICAP seemed such an obvious candidate as a disinformation source that, of course, they couldn't be. Or maybe they were. It doesn't matter, as the final vestiges of the original NICAP died in 1980, although some of their publications and other material are still available online.

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[Muadib]

Interesting article here Gene, your title question "Was there early government infiltration in the UFO field?" reminds me of some of the research of James Carrion, former MUFON director, who seems convinced that Kenneth Arnold's original sighting in 1947 was military planted disinformation designed to deceive the Russians into believing that our aircraft were more technically advanced than anything they had ever seen, in order to discourage them from getting any ideas about taking on America. It's a bit of a conspiracy theory to be sure, but I find it interesting nonetheless, especially since we've seen that the military has taken an interest in the UFO field from time to time and has possibly used it to further its own ends. He's come up with a number of interesting articles that seem to have been planted in newspapers of the day referring to different kinds of exotic technology that we probably never had. I don't know how true any of this is, mainly because I haven't had the time to properly research it, but I would be interested in hearing the opinions of both yourself, Chris and any of our forum experts on UFO history in regards to this controversial theory. I'm going to copy one of his blog entries here so you can get the gist of what I'm saying and I'll post a link to the blog as well for anyone who wishes to research it further. Now that I think of it, he might make a good guest, again, if he's still involved in the field. I remember you having him on some time ago but I don't think you touched on this particular aspect of his research, I remember it mostly being about his problems with the ridiculous Stan Romanek case.


Wanted: Flying Saucer Journalist – Pay is Great – Benefits Even Better

In June 1947, Kenneth Arnold became a world-wide celebrity after his sighting of “flying saucers” over Mount Rainier. His notoriety traveled fast and wide, so much so, that had he initiated the modern day UFO era today instead of in 1947, he would probably have been offered the lead role in his own reality TV series. Arnold’s story had all of the essential ingredients of a good old fashioned fire side tale that even Hollywood would be hard pressed to replicate: faster-than-man-made aircraft flying through the air, crashed saucers on the ground, Men in Black, Military Intelligence investigations, etc. Quicker than a Roswellian scout craft, Arnold’s account jumped off the Associated Press wire and built itself into the UFO perpetual motion machine of Americana that it is today.

Sensational! Full of Intrigue! Amazing Story! Unbelievable but True! That’s the way we Americans like our news – diced up, double fried and served hot - anything to keep us from being reminded of our dreary existence. Arnold’s story was all of that and more. There’s a reason why William Randolph Hearst could afford to build mansions and castles – he knew the value of Yellow Journalism and profited immensely from it.
But wait! It wasn’t Hearst’s International New Service (INS) that broke the flying saucer news, but its competitor the Associated Press (AP). And the AP’s greater rival, the United Press (UP) would have to wait a good month before it could get the scoop on both the AP and the INS with the Maury Island investigation, also starring, yes you guessed it, Kenneth Arnold.

So what’s my point? Well if you spent enough time digging through old 1947 newspapers, and only paid attention to the sensational flying saucer stories, you would have missed half of the story.
You would have missed the June 13-15 “Bigger than the Atomic Bomb” Top Secret Research project story that made headlines around the world, courtesy of the Canadian Press(CP) and picked up by the AP. This was the same incredible story I have conclusively proven as disinformation – not just another Conspiracy theory – but based on irrefutable hard evidence through declassified documents. Read my paper at: http://www.centerforufotruth.org/Shared%20Documents/James%20Carrions%20Research/The%20Greatest%20Cold%20War%20Secret%20Never%20Told%20-%20UFOs%20-%20Creation%20of%20a%20Myth.pdf for the details.

If you only cared about the flying pie plate stories and crashed balloons, you would have also missed the June 13, 1947 story, also courtesy of the AP, of a contract that the US Amy Air Force allegedly awarded the Douglas Aircraft Corporation to build an aircraft capable of travelling 2,200 MPH and flying at a height of 35 – 50 miles. A great feat considering that it took competing Airplane manufacturer Lockheed, almost fifteen years to develop the SR-71 Blackbird that was capable of attaining that speed. Perhaps the contract money instead went to Douglas’ founding of the Army Air Force Think Tank known as the RAND Corporation as no aircraft Douglas ever worked on seems to fit the bill of this mystery contract.
And if you were just focused on the Roswell captured saucer but deflated as a balloon story, you would have also missed the July 12, 1947 article that detailed renowned Harvard scientist Doctor Walter Orr Robert’s description of an 8,500 MPH “Neptune” rocket project from White Sands, New Mexico that could cross the United States in 26 minutes. The very next day, the Army would not comment, “explaining that the newest rocket referred to was a Navy project about which the Army would say nothing." Indeed, you would be hard pressed to find any such rocket in the annals of missile history.

Taken individually, each of these stories is either proven disinformation, anachronistic or just weird with the military communicating big lies to the press. Taken together as a concerted plan to use the media to push out a message, not to the the American Public, who like Arnold implicitly trusted Government (I know, hard to believe considering today’s conspiracy mindful public) but instead to our perceived enemies at the time, the Soviets, then from the perspective of a Grand Deception operation, they make complete sense.
And before you start pooh-poohing this mass deception notion and label it as just another Conspiracy Theory, perhaps you should study your Kenneth Arnold and Maury Island a little bit closer before passing judgment. Don’t chuck the inconvenient details that don’t seem to fit an ET explanation like:

1. When Kenneth Arnold landed at Yakima, Washington, and told his story to Al Baxter, Al called in some of his helicopter pilots into the room, one of the pilots exclaiming: “Ah, those are just a bunch of guided missiles coming out of Moses Lake.” Never mind, that guided missiles were not being developed out of Moses Lake at that time or that a lowly helicopter pilot would even know this. Poor suggestible and naïve Arnold not only accepted this theory but fed it to the press.

2. When Arnold first reported his sighting to the East Oregonian in Pendleton (who put it on the AP wire), lo and behold, an “unknown man” told Arnold he had seen the exact same objects over Ukiah. How convenient.

3. Never mind, that when Arnold flew to Seattle that he just happened to be in the right place and at the right time to meet up with United Airlines Pilot E. J. Smith and Copilot Ralph Stevens at the INS offices, with Arnold , Smith and Stevens posing for the INS reporter while looking at UFO photos taken by another Seattle man, Frank Ryman. What a photo opportunity dream come true.

4. Consider that Arnold flew unannounced to Tacoma, Washington to investigate the Maury Island incident and couldn’t find a room in town until he contacted the Winthrop Hotel which mysteriously had a room booked under his name, a reservation Arnold did not make.

5. Consider that this same room 502 at the Winthrop was bugged and Arnold’s conversations leaked to the United Press reporters. Arnold was adamant about not talking to reporters, but someone else really wanted this story out and on the newswire.

6. Consider that the Winthrop Hotel was conveniently right across the street from the United Press office in downtown Tacoma.

7. And who was the manager of the United Press office? A man by the name of Howard Applegate, whose family member Rex Applegate was a prominent member of the Office of Strategic Services (OSS), the predecessor of the CIA. There are less degrees of separation here than Kevin Bacon to the Queen of England.
In summary, Kenneth Arnold’s story and all of the other military concocted stories I have listed were not meant for the consumption of Joe American, but for Joe Stalin and company. Why? Well if you were as afraid of the intentions of the Soviets back in 1947 as our American leaders were, you would make up stories too to prevent a hot war from igniting. Of course you wouldn’t go through all of this trouble unless you could reap some additional benefits from it. But those other reasons will be the subject of another blog entry.

If you want to read for yourself the newspaper articles mentioned, you can find them at: http://www.centerforufotruth.org in the Research Document section.

You can find James Carrion's blog here:

Follow The Magic Thread

 

[Gene Steinberg]

We had Carrion on The Paracast twice. First when he was with MUFON, and after his departure. The second interview is the better one:

February 20, 2010 — Christopher O’Brien with James Carrion

I asked him a snarky question: how did we know he wasn't a disinfo agent? He didn't seem to like that question, and we haven't heard from him since.

But there are some fascinating things to say about the early UFO field. Consider Maury Island.

 

[Muadib]

Excellent, I didn't know there was a second interview, thanks for pointing it out. I see why I missed it now, the archives are either a bit out of order or the interview date is incorrect. When I load up the page, that interview is marked 2010 but it shows up in the 2011 listings. Plus I think I missed a lot of shows after David left, the rotating co host thing didn't really do it for me and I missed quite a few shows during the transition, I think things got a lot better once you settled on a single co host, but that's just my opinion,of course. Maury Island figures prominently into some of his theories if I remember correctly. It has been awhile since I've gone through the whole thing and I've never actually sat down and checked his sources or anything like that, one of these days I'll get around to it.

 

[Jeff Davis]

Was There Early Government infiltration in the UFO Field?
By Gene Steinberg

As most of you know, I first got heavily involved in the UFO field in the 1960s, and, over the years, met many of the so-called famous investigators. I even interviewed a few, although some of those interviews have vanished as the result of defunct publications, or simply manuscripts that didn't survive moves from one part of the country another.

Perhaps the most famous early figure with which I came in occasional contact with was Major Donald E. Keyhoe. I first met him near his home in Luray, VA in the mid-1960s, accompanied by several fellow UFO enthusiasts, including Allen Greenfield and Rick Hilberg.

Now I had looked forward to meeting Keyhoe, since I got interested in UFOs as the result of reading some of his best-selling books. Even in the early days, Keyhoe was an outspoken activist trying to convince the U.S. Congress to hold hearings on the flying saucers.

In the 21st century, such hearings don't amount to a hill of beans, but the U.S. government was taken seriously in those days, and Keyhoe was clearly convinced he'd actually get somewhere if only enough members of Congress would take notice and treat the subject seriously. He always believed that the Air Force and other agencies had guilty knowledge that UFOs were real and extraterrestrial. This is a belief Keyhoe appeared to hold until the end of his days.

In the 1960s, Keyhoe most important task was serving as Director of a worldwide flying saucer club, NICAP, short for the National Investigations Committee on Aerial Phenomena. Keyhoe and some of his ex-military pals firstr took control of the group in the 1950s, when the original founder, physicist Thomas Townsend Brown, got the group into financial difficulty and was forced by his board to take a hike.

Keyhoe's presence brought even more ex-military onto the board, including a classmate of his from the Naval Academy, one Vice Admiral Roscoe H. Hillenkoetter, who was the first head of the CIA.

To Keyhoe, having a board heavily laden with former military figures was a matter of pride. They were his friends and fellow travelers. But to the some, the state of affairs seemed just a tad suspicious. There were even rumors, not confirmed I might add, that NICAP was merely a government front designed to redirect interest in UFOs from organizations that were attempting to make real progress in finding out what was going on. It seemed that NICAP was mostly collecting evidence to help advance Keyhoe's case for Congressional hearings, as if that would be the magic bullet that would force disclosure.

Unfortunately, Keyhoe wasn't considered a terribly good manager either, and NICAP continued to flail and flounder. The monthly newsletter, The UFO Investigator, was frequently late, and there were repeated pleas from Keyhoe for membership drives and donations to help the cause. More to the point, Keyhoe was not a daily presence at NICAP's headquarters either; at best being director was a part-time job.

So that was NICAP. But Major Keyhoe was always the gentleman, friendly and sincere. If his organization was actually a front for disinformation or other nefarious activities, I felt that perhaps he was simply out of the loop. Maybe he was just being manipulated.

In any case, on the day after our meeting with Keyhoe, my friends and I visited NICAP's unpretentious offices, off DuPont Circle in Washington, D.C. Upon entering, the manager, Richard H. Hall, announced that I had become persona non grata to the organization and, with shaking finger, ordered me to leave. His words, "You're not welcome here!"

I was half tempted to assert my rights to visit the organization as a paying member, but not wishing to start a disturbance, my friends and I departed.

Now I always suspect that what got Hall so riled up about me was my friendship with Jim Moseley, with whom he had been feuding for curious reasons. So on one occasion, Moseley telephoned Hall and asked him about something in connection with a story he had planned to run in "Saucer News." But Hall became irate and accused Moseley of taping the conversation. Now those of us who knew Moseley well realize that he didn't own a tape recorder at he time, and was too much of a luddite to have much awareness of the process of recording a conversation, any conversation. To the end of his days, he used standard electric typewriters. He never bought a personal computer, and he never even set up an answering machine or voicemail system on his phone. Forget about cell phones and tablets.

Years later, I encountered Hall at a UFO conference, and we buried the hatchet. Hall no doubt understood that his emotional behavior in the early days didn't advance anyone's cause, and only created more animosity in a field that was already rife with personal quarrels and far too much nastiness.

All right, NICAP is long gone, and so is Keyhoe and Hall. In passing, I actually hoped to have Hall on The Paracast a year or two before his passing in 2009, but he was already too ill to commit himself to an interview.

These days, some still believe that NICAP had a nefarious purpose, and that Keyhoe and his associates, including Hall, may have been working to deflect UFO investigation from areas where it could do some good.

I suppose anything is possible, but I prefer to believe that Donald Keyhoe, Richard Hall and even NICAP sincerely attempted to make a difference. Was there some sort of government infiltration involved? Well, the presence of ex-military officers did raise suspicions, but maybe it was just too obvious.

You'd think that, if the government wanted to take control of a UFO organization, they'd be far more subtle about it. They would, instead, get involved in activities that did not have any tinge of a possible military connection. Why do the obvious -- or was that just a trick to divert everyone's attention? NICAP seemed such an obvious candidate as a disinformation source that, of course, they couldn't be. Or maybe they were. It doesn't matter, as the final vestiges of the original NICAP died in 1980, although some of their publications and other material are still available online.

Copyright 1999-2013 Making The Impossible, Inc. All Rights Reserved.

As usual, anytime I tune into the "Paracast", it's just typically synchro city.

This particular Paracast Newsletter, this being the first that I have actually opened and read for at least several moons anyway, (that'll teach me!) could not literally be more on target with respect for what are a myriad of recent relevant and sincere UFO logical considerations I have attempted to contemplate. See my last posted response to Ufology prior to me reading this letter to understand how sincere I'm being here!

This is my short, perhaps admittedly ignorant, if not down right unfair and biased take, in portrayal of, Donald Keyhoe. The specific gentleman that has IMO, most greatly contributed to the formation, and in extremely well written form (in most cases) I might add, most largely shaped the public's perception of what UFOs "were" and even echoing to up until this very day for many, sadly, what UFOs ultimately are.

Not because of some diabolical conspiracy, or due in cause to an official government directed covert intelligence program, possibly needed to misdirect the public away from the real identity of UFOs. (as Don most wanted us to believe) I believe it rather an incredibly small perspective that was ignorantly born out of somewhat obvious and very clear circumstances that government spin tacticians used for purposes most certainly military in context. Here are some curious formative factors I find virtually impossible to overlook. The first contributing factor being his already exceptionally developed talent as a writer, and in this specific case, his pronouncedly preconditioned science fiction and fantasy fertile imagination. One that IMO, the government clearly took advantage of. This guy was a popular local sensationalist science fiction author. He was published numerous times, (1920-30 I think) within some of the better Pulps. It was going fairly big time for young Mr. Keyhoe actually, who was just a budding but exceptionally talented young writer at the time. The later contribution, being what could have been titled "My Big Coming Out Surprise", "The Flying Saucers Are Real", which was in all reality, just for the sake of context, an expanded commercial effort based on the overwhelming success of Don's "True" magazine article submission. IMO, this was purely born out of exceptionally relevant culture first and foremost. Induced within the context primarily of his former programming in the Military and his gifted science/fantasy fiction writer's imagination.

I think it was the government that initially used Keyhoe, and then he just perpetuated a fictional course of continued professional writing until he got litterally tired of the whole thing. His formerly highly developed talent as an author that routinely mixed fantastic fiction with modern aviation technology, overtly preconditioned his right brain/memory/process, resulting in a specific associative perception construct. He was prime, the government saw an easy and even willing mark, and his UFO interpretations, be they real, highly accurate in description, and rife with detail government provided factual information, or sheer directed confabulation covertly used to accomplish some type of Military stage setting operation, either way, it undeniably shaped the template of his UFO relayed investigations at very least. JM2C.

 

[Randall]

Interesting article here Gene, your title question "Was there early government infiltration in the UFO field?" ...

Read my paper at: http://www.centerforufotruth.org/Shared%20Documents/James%20Carrions%20Research/The%20Greatest%20Cold%20War%20Secret%20Never%20Told%20-%20UFOs%20-%20Creation%20of%20a%20Myth.pdf for the details.

If you want to read for yourself the newspaper articles mentioned, you can find them at: http://www.centerforufotruth.org in the Research Document section.

NOTE: The above links didn't load for me. Not sure why. Good post though!

 

[Randall]

... He was prime, the government saw an easy and even willing mark, and his UFO interpretations, be they real, highly accurate in description, and rife with detail government provided factual information, or sheer directed confabulation covertly used to accomplish some type of Military stage setting operation, either way, it undeniably shaped the template of his UFO relayed investigations at very least. JM2C.

I don't know what @Gene Steinberg will have to say, but I think that calling Keyhoe a "mark" deserves more substantial evidence than you've presented. Keyhoe wasn't simply a writer, but also a graduate of the United States Naval Academy with a Bachelor of Sciences who went on to serve in World War II retiring at the rank of Major, and his work with NICAP was supported by genuine military sources and excellent research undertaken by Richard Hall. Formerly secret documents reveal that NICAP was a thorn in the side of the military. Was NICAP infiltrated? According to Hall it wasn't just Keyhoe's management that led to problems, and Hall was in a position to know. Personally I find the whole demise of NICAP quite suspicious.

 

[Muadib]

NOTE: The above links didn't load for me. Not sure why. Good post though!

Thanks, the links don't seem to load for me either, I would guess that he has abandoned that particular web site or it's down at the moment. Since you're here, I'd like to get your opinion on his basic hypothesis, some of which you can read about at his blog. As someone who has put a great deal of time into studying the UFO phenomenon and the early history of ufology, I'm interested to see what you think of it.

 

[Randall]

Thanks, the links don't seem to load for me either, I would guess that he has abandoned that particular web site or it's down at the moment. Since you're here, I'd like to get your opinion on his basic hypothesis, some of which you can read about at his blog. As someone who has put a great deal of time into studying the UFO phenomenon and the early history of ufology, I'm interested to see what you think of it.

Carrion is an interesting character. His Pandora Project was a great idea, but trying to access it results in the same old MUFON bureaucratic roadblock. What do I think of his intelligence perspective on ufology? It's also interesting but largely speculative and based on circumstantial evidence. While I don't doubt that some active monitoring of the ufology community has taken place in the past, and while I agree with his rationale as to why the ufology community would make a fertile playground for intelligence operatives, I think Carrion may be assuming too much, or at least leading people to assume too much.

So what's the bottom line? Are UFOs simply stories manufactured by the intelligence community to cover-up classified weapons projects? I have no doubt that the objects in some UFO reports have been classified military hardware. However I also have no doubt that the objects in some UFO reports are genuine ufos ( alien craft ). I also believe that there are elements within the military that also have no doubt about this. Consequently, I think it works both ways. Not only do classified military craft get reported as UFOs, thereby allowing the military to obscure their secret weapons among the vagaries of ufology; it's also possible, if not likely, that they obscure their true knowledge about alien craft in the shadows of their secret weapons programs.

What's more, those who are in the secret weapons programs may not know anything about the real UFOs, making any of their denials about being involved in a cover-up about them, completely true.

Lastly, although @Gene Steinberg and I seem to disagree on certain things, I think Gene's suggestion that the Roswell incident could have been a classified military craft is entirely plausible, if not likely. To my knowledge, there was no observation of the craft performing any radical maneuvers prior to crashing, and if it was one of the early flying wings, it would have looked mighty strange if it were seen partially embedded in the ground at the main crash site ( beyond the debris field ). How do we explain the super-metals and alien bodies? The part about the bodies was never publicly admitted. It was admitted that the Air Force had recovered materials, but the properties of those materials remains unproven and the stuff of ufolore. The memory metal could have been some kind of coated rubber film, and the impenetrable metal could have been some super hard titanium alloy. Personally I tend to find the Roswell Incident one of the most compelling cases to date, but still inconclusive.

 

[Muadib]

Carrion is an interesting character. His Pandora Project was a great idea, but trying to access it results in the same old MUFON bureaucratic roadblock. What do I think of his intelligence perspective on ufology? It's also interesting but largely speculative and based on circumstantial evidence. While I don't doubt that some active monitoring of the ufology community has taken place in the past, and while I agree with his rationale as to why the ufology community would make a fertile playground for intelligence operatives, I think Carrion may be assuming too much, or at least leading people to assume too much.

So what's the bottom line? Are UFOs simply stories manufactured by the intelligence community to cover-up classified weapons projects? I have no doubt that the objects in some UFO reports have been classified military hardware. However I also have no doubt that the objects in some UFO reports are genuine ufos ( alien craft ). I also believe that there are elements within the military that also have no doubt about this. Consequently, I think it works both ways. Not only do classified military craft get reported as UFOs, thereby allowing the military to obscure their secret weapons among the vagaries of ufology; it's also possible, if not likely, that they obscure their true knowledge about alien craft in the shadows of their secret weapons programs.

What's more, those who are in the weapons programs may not know anything about the real UFOs, making any of their denials about being involved in a cover-up, completely true.

Thank you for your response. Just to clarify, I wasn't suggesting that all UFOs are something that was made up out of whole cloth by intelligence agencies and I don't think that James is trying to advance that perspective either. Obviously, whether or not what is often referred to as the modern UFO era was kicked off by a false report designed to discourage our potential enemies is ultimately irrelevant when you consider the large number of UFO and strange phenomena reports that predate the Arnold sighting and go back all the way into antiquity. Still, I find the hypothesis that Arnold may have been a government disinfo agent or just an unassuming patsy very interesting, as it would seem to explain some of the stranger aspects of the Maury Island incident, for example. If I remember correctly, James has a military intelligence background, so if anyone would be apt to recognize a potential disinfo operation, I think it would be him. Of course, it may also be the case that his intelligence background has made him a bit paranoid and causes him to see connections that aren't really there.

 

[Decker]

Gene, I was aware of the incident of Richard Hall and you back in the glory days of NICAP. I do believe we discussed it at some point. I wanted to say that I do not find that surprising however, in regards to an incident that happened with Richard and UFO Magazine.

Back in the 1990's, prior to Vicki and I having to take partners, Hall wrote a bi-monthly column for UFO called "Hall's Corner." Both Vicki and I knew "Dick", as we called him, pretty well. At that time I think Dick was one of the very few researchers that maintained the respect of almost all in the UFO field. I very much liked Dick and even felt a bit of awe around him. (Listen to several of my interviews with him.) But! There was NO doubt that Dick could have and sometimes display a distinctive "pissy side" when provoked.

Of course he was a very complex fellow and for example, Richard "Dick" Hall was a very noted American Civil War historian. He wrote a very well received book on American women who passed themselves off as men so they could enter the Army to fight in the Civil War. However I did mention Dick could have a pissy side, right?

After we took partners in the early 2000's we continued to carry Dick Hall's column in each issue. Dick was always on the ball getting us his latest, it was always on point and he was very much in the nut's and bolts camp. Then we did an issue that featured ancient Egypt, with matching cover. Without looking for it, I forget exactly what was inside the issue but Dick Hall had a fracking meltdown! I mean you would have thought we told him his mom wore combat boots and smoked cigars. He was livid ... livid with a capital L. Oh yea, then he canceled doing his column. That was the end of Hall's Corner. Neither Vicki or I ever really understood what his main bone of contention was, but hey! What could we do about it? After he really became ill this fracture was repaired and we continued our friendship with him. And, to this day I still miss Dick Hall.

Decker

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Don, I only regret that I never had much of a chance to actually break bread with hall. We merely buried the hatchet in a brief conversation, and that was it. But I'm not surprised about his pissy side.

 

[Randall]

Don, I only regret that I never had much of a chance to actually break bread with hall. We merely buried the hatchet in a brief conversation, and that was it. But I'm not surprised about his pissy side.

Meh, so what if Hall got crusty when provoked. I respect that more than someone who shrinks away, afraid to defend their position. That being said, it doesn't seem entirely fair that he judged and sentenced you and embarrassed you in front of your peers either. It makes it sound like he was under the impression that you were responsible for something more dastardly than you think. Too bad you never got to work it through with him and find out if there was more to his side of the story than you were aware of.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

I gather it was very much a part of the fact that he and Moseley didn't get along. We also started a "Hall Must Fall!" movement in Saucer News as a result, and we told of our plight to Ray Palmer, with whom I was slightly acquainted, and he wrote an article about it for Flying Saucers magazine, with a play on NICAP: "No Investigations Can Actually Proceed." So what Hall started, we continued, more or less, till he left NICAP.

So forgive and forget took a long time.

 

[Randall]

I gather it was very much a part of the fact that he and Moseley didn't get along. We also started a "Hall Must Fall!" movement in Saucer News as a result, and we told of our plight to Ray Palmer, with whom I was slightly acquainted, and he wrote an article about it for Flying Saucers magazine, with a play on NICAP: "No Investigations Can Actually Proceed." So what Hall started, we continued, more or less, till he left NICAP.

So forgive and forget took a long time.

Ah, the politics of personalities. It must all seem quite silly looking back at it now. If it weren't for the toll that time takes, I imagine that by now you two could probably have sat and reminisced over a drink and had a good chuckle over it. Or would I be making too much of a presumption there? Either way, thanks for sharing Gene. "Hall Must Fall" ... LOL ... that's a real gem .

 

[Randall]

Hey @Gene Steinberg, perhaps as a tribute to the spirit of the "Hall Must Fall" movement we should start a "Sneer At Greer" campaign .

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Prefer an "Ignore Greer for Life" campaign. We don't mention him!

 

[Randall]

Prefer an "Ignore Greer for Life" campaign. We don't mention him!

Aw ... and there seemed to be so much potential there.

While we're at it, I think I'd like to get inducted into this dubious hall of fame, so if anyone wants to start a "Garbology of Ufology" campaign by all means create the thread !

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Inasmuch as you volunteered.

 

[Jeff Davis]

I don't know what @Gene Steinberg will have to say, but I think that calling Keyhoe a "mark" deserves more substantial evidence than you've presented. Keyhoe wasn't simply a writer, but also a graduate of the United States Naval Academy with a Bachelor of Sciences who went on to serve in World War II retiring at the rank of Major, and his work with NICAP was supported by genuine military sources and excellent research undertaken by Richard Hall. Formerly secret documents reveal that NICAP was a thorn in the side of the military. Was NICAP infiltrated? According to Hall it wasn't just Keyhoe's management that led to problems, and Hall was in a position to know. Personally I find the whole demise of NICAP quite suspicious.

If I hadn't strongly disclaimed my views up front I would honestly feel the need to better substantiate such preposterous notion. Respectfully, consider as much fiction as I had really hoped to more or less just lay some informational groundwork for my hypothetical, more like embryonically hypothetical, recent imaginings concerning Special K. When I use the term "mark", it's really not in a bad way like a street hustler would size up a mark to con or thug. It was more or less that he was perfect for the job. Tried and proven as a successful author. He fit the bill to a T. If anything, the more experienced minds like Don and Gene here, may be able to just crush as much as idle subtractive nonsense. I would listen if they did, that being no guarantee I would change my mind completely, but I would sure sit up and listen if they did.

Remember, I'm not stating that Keyhoe was involved in anything of a nature that I personally find to be in the least bit explanatory as far as the Military's pupose is concerned at this point. If I was, it would certainly demand substantiation. I just don't know why an informational revealing relationship would ensue with what are "public relations" offices, Even if these military people are your personal friends, where in the heck were they getting their intel begs for a credulity check.

It's just odd that Keyhoe's past and "formal" present were filled with the same type of aviation sensationalism, albeit either under a fictional, or non-fictional, professional appropriation. Later, his "contacts" in the military, were primarily PR agencies on the exterior, and yet they give him an inside line to classified intel confirming that objects he had formerly doubted in print, but assuredly had an interest in, were all of a sudden real. It's just weird!