Where do you fit in as a believer or skeptic?

[jonathan]

In my experience and study as a theologian I have found that most people fit somewhere on the following chart. I think it also works for the belief in the paranormal, UFOs, and many other "unprovable" things. When we try to be honest about our world view (or at least reflect a little on where we come from), I think it can be helpful in discussion and debate.

Having been on both extremes and in the middle I consider myself an Informed Believer at this point in my life.

 

[Randall]

We did a similar survey not long ago here:https://www.theparacast.com/forum/threads/acceptance-of-reality-whats-your-number.13527/

NOTE: In reference to my vote here, as an informed believer, the my belief that God exists, is probably not like most people would assume. I have no personal belief in any God. I do however recognize that others believe in certain deities, and in some cases those deities are as measurable as any other materially real thing, if not for the simple reason that they are materially real things e.g. the Sun, or a particular living human who has been deified, and therefore, because other people believe those things are their God, we cannot escape the logic that those Gods are real, whether we choose to devote ourselves to them or not.

 

[jonathan]

Thanks for the link. I was going to post mine before back in April but left my computer at home when I traveled to the US. I've been trying to catch up on the show and forum since i got back to Thailand in June. Besides the fact that my Gant is not as pretty as yours.
But my focus is different than yours. Being a theologian, I am curious about belief in any phenomenon (including, but not limited to God, this is why the Theist, Agnostic, and Anti-theist categories are on the outside). Whether the "zealous debunker" realizes it or not they are in the realm of faith, they believe so strongly that UFOs, the paranormal, and other unexplainable phenomenon do not exist they are blind to the possibility that they do exist. On the other end, the "zealous believer" is so blinded by belief they refuse to listen to any evidence that might produce doubt.
I imagine that most people who listen to the Paracast fall within the overlapping realms, "informed believer" or "scientific debunker". I listen because the hosts and, in general the folks in the forum have bigger ears than mouths.
Currently, I do not claim to be a scientist or a researcher in the paranormal or UFOs. I do believe that unexplainable phenoms exist. I just think so many actual "scientists" and "researchers" are less than honest about their faith, as evidenced by scientific researchers who get gobs of money for research projects and then fix results. I liked your post and others on the thread , Scientist Explains Why UFO's Are Not Investigated Discussion in 'The UFO Forum' started by exo_doc, Aug 14, 2013. The fact that any study of these phenomenon are called "fringe" science makes it even harder to bring any facts to the table without being ridiculed by the mainstream media.

 

[pixelsmith]

god as taught in the bible is pure BS.

Now if He landed on the White House lawn... that would be a different story.

 

[Randall]

Thanks for the link. I was going to post mine before back in April but left my computer at home when I traveled to the US. I've been trying to catch up on the show and forum since i got back to Thailand in June. Besides the fact that my Gant is not as pretty as yours. But my focus is different than yours. Being a theologian, I am curious about belief in any phenomenon (including, but not limited to God, this is why the Theist, Agnostic, and Anti-theist categories are on the outside).

I do a bit of graphic work so I like to add a bit of flair. What's more important is that the chart I posted is laid out a bit differently. It includes the possibility of firsthand witness experience, and all three possibilities overlap in some places. I think that in religion, there is such a thing as the religious experience. So you might want to include that in your next version. I've had one such experience. It could even be called archetypal, and for a few years following it, I was a believer in God. However as a direct result of that experience, my views have also matured considerably. Most people who are into religion find my views too confusing because it falls outside their programmed faith, so they do that thing where they deny the experience, or they run away believing I've been corrupted by the Devil. It's quite ironic actually because most of the religious people I've been in discussions with have never had any sort of religious experience beyond performing rituals ( church, prayer, Bible study, etc. ),yet they claim to be such big believers.

 

[Tyger]

Well, I voted skeptic but I'm not sure what I am a skeptic about exactly in this poll.

I'd say I go along with the Catholic Church in that there is phenomena sufficient to warrant 'exorcism' - but such language and concepts are pre-Freudian (modern psychology). It's a matter of nomenclature as when one reads in the Sanskrit about Devas and makes the translation to Angels. Devas/Angels - same concept.

Do I believe in UFOs? I believe in the possibility of them - I would not discount them as possible. (I also think the idea has a romance and excitement - the idea is fun). Do I believe we have been visited and are being visited by UFOs? That's harder to say and it's an area where logic can lead one astray very rapidly. IMO this possibility cannot be discounted, but currently the evidence appears weak. I would say most UFO events are attributable - if not out-right hoaxes - to other explanations than extraterrestrial alien visitations. Logically - given my suppositions - I would say not, and wherever it appears to be existing, another explanation is more likely.

Do I believe in the paranormal - as in a universe beyond the physical universe - yes. Do I believe the paranormal is being accurately interpreted and portrayed? No. I accept that there are simplistic explanations for many phenomena - and that belief structures can have powerful effects (see both in psychology and in voo-doo incantations). But I also posit that the universal laws of the realms above the physical require a different approach and a different set of criteria (as well as 'instruments') by which to be measured and judged.

 

[Randall]

god as taught in the bible is pure BS. Now if He landed on the White House lawn... that would be a different story.

I don't think we need to be so completely cynical all the time. I look at the Bible as mythology, and consequently as a mix of fact and fiction. But even more interesting is the possibility of misinterpretation. Religious people are sometimes threatened by the prospect that some of the phenomena reported in the Bible may have been of alien technology rather than "God". They consider those who are open to the possibility of ancient astronauts as being afflicted with some sort of mental aberration they call "von Dänikenitis". That reaction is somewhat ironic considering what they consider to be the "truth". The point is, that there are these two extremes as illustrated in jonathan's Gant chart that are mutually exclusive and therefore exclude the possibility that Biblical lore stems from real historical events that may have been real but also incomprehensible at the time.

There are also other aspects to the Bible that deal with social and political issues that are as relevant today as they ever were. Provided we don't get into institutionalized belief structures where our own beliefs must conform to some church prescribed interpretation, the Bible can actually be very interesting. I've got several versions on CD and on the shelf, including something anyone who is into religion should have, and that is a copy of Unger's Bible Dictionary. It puts many of the words and phrases used in the Bible into historical context based on archaeological and historical evidence rather than the versions we hear coming from the various purveyors of religious branding.

 

[starise]

I also have an interest in theology . I am a theist. I don't feel like the Bible is a load of bunk. Many many things In the Bible can easily be misunderstood, especially if one doesn't allow for alternate views. Books like the skeptics bible do more to disinformation than help. If one wants to become convinced the Bible is a load of bunk, it isn't difficult to find literature and persons who will give you plenty of ammo that seems convincing on the surface.

My answer to those people is to look at both sides of the coin.The most common mistakes are taking a small verse or verses and seeing them outside of their intended context.There have been some typos that are noted in the book. There are some seeming contradictions. All of this has been brought forward to try and make a case that the entire book is a bunch of lies. The thread that runs through the book is undeniable unless one chooses to deny it. The basic intended message for humanity hasn't changed. There seem to be three groups of people when it comes to believers. There are the simple who believe by faith. There are the skeptics who are unconvinced unless there is a supernatural work in their life, or some influence eventually wins them over and over rides any skepticism they had., like "doubting Thomas".These people want to believe, but need some kind of proof. Then there are the hateful diametrically opposed who are sometimes given a huge dose of something they didn't think existed.Some of these people eventually go on to become some of the very best saints,ex. Saul who became Paul.At one time he tortured and killed Christians until he had a confrontation on the road to Damascus.

All three groups end up at the same place.Unfortunately some people will never be in any of those groups. I have been challenged about my position. In the end it has made me stronger because there are questions I never thought to ask, let alone answer for myself. Nothing wrong with being a skeptic up to a point, just don't let skepticism stand in the way of the truth. Once you find a valid answer to a question, don't ignore it if it doesn't agree with your world view.

Not believing in a deity is all very convenient if you don't want to answer to one.Most people know that if the door is cracked, they might be forced to open it the whole way. But some people simply aren't there, not that they don't want to be. I think this is like so many other things that a person might regard as unpleasant, but looking back from the other side it isn't what we thought it was. In the end the whole process is helpful . It's not the end of the world, but a new beginning.

 

[TalkingMeatSuit]

Born into a Jehovah's Witness family (won't ever see or talk to them again, I'm disfellowshipped aka excommunicated until I go back, which is never)

Atheist for my 20's

Now a believer of sorts in a non-specific (very anti-religion) sense, and for some reason it's feels a little embarrassing. I liked Atheism the best.

 

[Decker]

Born into a Jehovah's Witness family (won't ever see or talk to them again, I'm disfellowshipped aka excommunicated until I go back, which is never)

Atheist for my 20's

Now a believer of sorts in a non-specific (very anti-religion) sense, and for some reason it's feels a little embarrassing. I liked Atheism the best.

And "Suit", that is why I have such a hard time with "organized" religion. I "assume" (without making an ass outta you and me) that the Jehovah Witnesses take "Jesus Christ" as their Lord and Savior. As if Christ would disown his family because they think a bit differently than he does or did. Same same with L. Ron Hubbard's bunch or any other damned Cult ... believe exactly as I do or You Are Out budd. Oh geeze, did I forget Islam, especially "hard corp" Islam? Sorry.

Decker

 

[ALPHA ROMEO UNIFORM]

The old say don't give rats ass if you believe or not as long as you respect each other take on things. Rather think there's some more to this life than just live and then darkness. Instead, like everything you choose your own path and paranormal is one door which opens the mind to ask questions.

 

[TalkingMeatSuit]

And "Suit", that is why I have such a hard time with "organized" religion. I "assume" (without making an ass outta you and me) that the Jehovah Witnesses take "Jesus Christ" as their Lord and Savior. As if Christ would disown his family because they think a bit differently than he does or did. Same same with L. Ron Hubbard's bunch or any other damned Cult ... believe exactly as I do or You Are Out budd. Oh geeze, did I forget Islam, especially "hard corp" Islam? Sorry.

Decker

Jehovah's witnesses believe that Jehovah is almighty god and Jesus is his son, his first creation. Any second now since the late 1800's Armageddon is going to happen, during which Jehovah is going to kill everyone who is not a Jehovah's Witness. The remaining JWs will turn the earth into paradise and live here forever. 144,000 special JWs go to heaven to be princes. Yahweh / Jehovah loves him some slaughter, but don't forget: "god is love"!

No Christmas, Halloween, birthdays, no to any holiday at all. No blood transfusions. No voting. No friends who aren't JW's too. College is a nono. Jehovah seems to only allow mustaches, not beards. Anything like Harry potter is demonized. Basically they are the Ahmish with automobiles and power tools. Weird ass stuff.

 

[jonathan]

god as taught in the bible is pure BS.

Now if He landed on the White House lawn... that would be a different story.

Thanks, you made me laugh. I like your Galileo quote too, he was also a believer in many things including God. I do agree that the scriptural literalists are full of BS.

 

[jonathan]

I do a bit of graphic work so I like to add a bit of flair. What's more important is that the chart I posted is laid out a bit differently. It includes the possibility of firsthand witness experience, and all three possibilities overlap in some places. I think that in religion, there is such a thing as the religious experience. So you might want to include that in your next version. I've had one such experience. It could even be called archetypal, and for a few years following it, I was a believer in God. However as a direct result of that experience, my views have also matured considerably. Most people who are into religion find my views too confusing because it falls outside their programmed faith, so they do that thing where they deny the experience, or they run away believing I've been corrupted by the Devil. It's quite ironic actually because most of the religious people I've been in discussions with have never had any sort of religious experience beyond performing rituals ( church, prayer, Bible study, etc. ),yet they claim to be such big believers.

Thanks for the graphic suggestions. The religious or mystical "experience" is beyond the grasp of a great majority of the "religious". Faith matures in the absence of religion or in the presence. But the truly faithful can have a conversation with believer or non-believer and their faith will grow.

 

[jonathan]

Well, I voted skeptic but I'm not sure what I am a skeptic about exactly in this poll.

I'd say I go along with the Catholic Church in that there is phenomena sufficient to warrant 'exorcism' - but such language and concepts are pre-Freudian (modern psychology). It's a matter of nomenclature as when one reads in the Sanskrit about Devas and makes the translation to Angels. Devas/Angels - same concept.

Do I believe in UFOs? I believe in the possibility of them - I would not discount them as possible. (I also think the idea has a romance and excitement - the idea is fun). Do I believe we have been visited and are being visited by UFOs? That's harder to say and it's an area where logic can lead one astray very rapidly. IMO this possibility cannot be discounted, but currently the evidence appears weak. I would say most UFO events are attributable - if not out-right hoaxes - to other explanations than extraterrestrial alien visitations. Logically - given my suppositions - I would say not, and wherever it appears to be existing, another explanation is more likely.

Do I believe in the paranormal - as in a universe beyond the physical universe - yes. Do I believe the paranormal is being accurately interpreted and portrayed? No. I accept that there are simplistic explanations for many phenomena - and that belief structures can have powerful effects (see both in psychology and in voo-doo incantations). But I also posit that the universal laws of the realms above the physical require a different approach and a different set of criteria (as well as 'instruments') by which to be measured and judged.

Thanks, great response. I appreciate that you followed through on defining where your belief and skepticism lie. I like your honesty about belief.

 

[jonathan]

Born into a Jehovah's Witness family (won't ever see or talk to them again, I'm disfellowshipped aka excommunicated until I go back, which is never)

Atheist for my 20's

Now a believer of sorts in a non-specific (very anti-religion) sense, and for some reason it's feels a little embarrassing. I liked Atheism the best.

Yeah, Atheism is fashionable, exciting, and cool, but so many Atheists are as self-deluded as religious zealots. To make the decision that there is no God is also a leap of faith.

 

[jonathan]

And "Suit", that is why I have such a hard time with "organized" religion. I "assume" (without making an ass outta you and me) that the Jehovah Witnesses take "Jesus Christ" as their Lord and Savior. As if Christ would disown his family because they think a bit differently than he does or did. Same same with L. Ron Hubbard's bunch or any other damned Cult ... believe exactly as I do or You Are Out budd. Oh geeze, did I forget Islam, especially "hard corp" Islam? Sorry.

Decker

Yeah, I'm not that into "organized" religion either. We can't put God in a box, even if we do God can still work inside that box. I still see great works inside some religion but not the majority.

 

[Randall]

Thanks for the graphic suggestions. The religious or mystical "experience" is beyond the grasp of a great majority of the "religious". Faith matures in the absence of religion or in the presence. But the truly faithful can have a conversation with believer or non-believer and their faith will grow.

Perhaps I should add that the experience I mentioned didn't have anything to do with faith. It had to do with evidence by way of personal experience, and the experience itself discouraged faith and encouraged choice based on evidence. The only faith required was that the choices be true and good, the faith part being that good is better than evil. Truth is an objective thing that can be determined through logical analysis. I know this seems rather simplistic, and in many respects it is. In other cases it's not so simple.

 

[Han]

Personally I would have to say that I am by nature a "believer" and because of this I have to be sceptical (for my own protection) what I am trying to say is that many of the things I believe in can not be quantified but that they are "real" to me.
I do not however believe intelligent "aliens" have visited earth in the past or present, or that people are abducted by alleged "aliens" I am not saying that people are lying infact I actually believe that they believe what they recount, if that makes sense .

My understanding is that language is limiting and restrictive and can be interpreted so diversely that it is an inadequate form of conveying even a non "paranormal" experience*:
Another way to say this is that its like teaching a child about the danger of fire: they will not fully understand until they get a little burnt and understand what you were trying to get accross.
Basically I have a healthy respect for the "paranormal" and try not to mess with things that we do not understand.

To be brutally honest I believe in what I like, that is to say I am more instinctive than measured:
for example I dont "believe" in morgellons disease but I do believe in bigfoots. or I do believe that david icke is dangerous and don't believe billy meier went on a space ride.

One thing is for sure I like all stories tall, medium or short!


*I hope that in the future we will have advanced enough to find a form of "total" communication that would enable the sharing of ones experience of a past event with another person.

 

[Randall]

I do not however believe intelligent "aliens" have visited earth in the past or present, or that people are abducted by alleged "aliens" I am not saying that people are lying infact I actually believe that they believe what they recount, if that makes sense .

This discussion is about theology not ufology. For a more general chart on belief: https://www.theparacast.com/forum/threads/acceptance-of-reality-whats-your-number.13527/