Vatican studying ET

[Schuyler]

In view of recent discussions on science and religion, I thought some of you might be interested in this:

Vatican looks to heavens for signs of alien life - Yahoo! News

 

[Gareth]

Headline:

"Vatican Makes Show of Stuff in an Effort to Remain Relevant"

Maybe "remain" is the wrong word there.

In other news...

Who thinks we will see an story from Alfred Webre in the coming weeks....

"Vatican holds ET Conference" - More signs Disclosure is imminent.

By Alfed Webre.

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[Jeff_Hansen]

This was on FoxNews, CNN, MSNBC, and AP.

It was a story that helped spread awareness of this issue.

30 Scientists also attended the 3 day conference, from Britian, France, Sweden, Chili, and US.

 

[Kieran]

I find some points of the article interesting, one of those statements from Rev Gabriel Funes, an Astronomer and director of the Vatican observatory, if intelligent beings were discovered, they would be considered "part of creation" To me that one statement has many problems, Funes seems to know and be too sure to that been the case, he must know something we don't? Look you can never make such a bold statement, until you hear from the third party first(ALIENS) since they might have views that might refute the idea that God' was the creator of everything.

 

[jpw.in.wi]

In view of recent discussions on science and religion, I thought some of you might be interested in this:

Vatican looks to heavens for signs of alien life - Yahoo! News

I don't think I'd term what you're probably referring to as "discussions" ...

Anyway, people should not be taken by surprise by what this article reports about the scientific inquiry the Church is encouraging; but thanks to relentless anti-Catholic indoctrination, most people have an amazingly warped view of the Church's true history. Anyone who has ever taken a fair look at the ways in which Churchmen have been pioneers of Western science and technological advancement over the centuries wouldn't see anything unusual in Ariel David's piece.


It was a little hard to read the article, as it's sprinkled with the usual ignorant, anti-Catholic canards, summed up well in this quote: "The Roman Catholic Church's relationship with science has come a long way since Galileo was tried as a heretic in 1633 and forced to recant his finding that the Earth revolves around the sun." Of course, that's all we need to know about the Church, science, and the Galileo affair.


But if anyone out there with a truly open mind cares to learn about the TRUE NATURE of "the Roman Catholic Church's relationship with science" and learning in general, there's one book that sums it up better than any I've ever found. Buy it, check it out from your library, whatever, but please read it:

How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization, by Thomas E. Woods, Jr., Ph.D.

Again, instead of reacting and hammering me here, I just ask that you please read the book. That's all ...

 

[jpw.in.wi]

... you can never make such a bold statement, until you hear from the third party first(ALIENS) since they might have views that might refute the idea that God' was the creator of everything.

But there are already plenty of Earthlings who would refute that idea. Why would hearing it from an extraterrestrial being change anything?

The idea of a Creator in relationship to Creation has rational philosophical underpinnings in the whole notion of causation. This was at the heart of Aristotle's "Unmoved Mover" in the work he did on physics. The argument that there must be an Unmoved Mover, an uncaused First Cause, an uncreated Creator and non-contingent Ground of Being isn't something that some Pope came up with in a fit of irrational religious delusion. It's the outgrowth of rational inquiry into the natural world.

The ETs would have to prove somehow that causation doesn't exist, and that human reason, logic, and accumulated scientific knowledge are completely wrong. If they could, then they would bring about not only the collapse of all human religion, but also of human civilization as a whole.

 

[Kieran]

But there are already plenty of Earthlings who would refute that idea. Why would hearing it from an extraterrestrial being change anything?

The idea of a Creator in relationship to Creation has rational philosophical underpinnings in the whole notion of causation. This was at the heart of Aristotle's "Unmoved Mover" in the work he did on physics. The argument that there must be an Unmoved Mover, an uncaused First Cause, an uncreated Creator and non-contingent Ground of Being isn't something that some Pope came up with in a fit of irrational religious delusion. It's the outgrowth of rational inquiry into the natural world.

The ETs would have to prove somehow that causation doesn't exist, and that human reason, logic, and accumulated scientific knowledge are completely wrong. If they could, then they would bring about not only the collapse of all human religion, but also of human civilization as a whole.

Ya, but that statement does not go for everyone. There is million upon millions who still hold to believe in 'God, you, me and others on the forums have ' different views to what we believe' all well and good.
It might change something, because the belief in God is only a human belief as far i can tell and anything outside our human experience that is intelligent might have different views to our creation and understanding of our place in the universe. So people wake up one day and suddenly find out that everything they came to believe in is false That can be earth shattering to some people.

 

[DVS]

Thanks that was a good read. I agree with both Irishseeker and jpw.in.wi. (thanks for the book suggestion, BTW). I think from the Vatican's perspective, they want to reassure Christians that if there are actual aliens on other worlds, that it would not effect their belief in God as their creator and the aliens as well, being the creator of the universe, not just Earth and humans. That should stand unless of course, aliens come down and enlighten mankind to some other knowledge.

 

[jkoci]

being the creator of the universe, not just Earth and humans

Don't forget about Georges Lemaître and the Big Bang.

Wikimedia Error

 

[jpw.in.wi]

Don't forget about Georges Lemaître and the Big Bang.

Wikimedia Error

Thanks for the great link!!!!!! Gotta post a picture or two, though of Monsignor Lemaître

 

[truthseeker]

It makes you wonder if the Catholic Church knows something so as to prepare people for what is coming.

 

[Ezechiel]

The ETs would have to prove somehow that causation doesn't exist, and that human reason, logic, and accumulated scientific knowledge are completely wrong. If they could, then they would bring about not only the collapse of all human religion, but also of human civilization as a whole.

The collapse of human civilization is a concern highlighted by the Brookings Institute position papers back in 1961.

Are you saying 'causation exists'... and since when is that 'scientific knowledge' References please !! . You seem to be mixing biblical knowledge or human instinct with science.

If humans can't adapt to new realities in a turbulent universe then that really spells 'Game Over' in big bold red letters . But I credit humans with more resilience than that in the face of intellectual adversity. (Hint: Static religions are the real target here). When Romans went from polytheism to monotheism the empire lasted for a few more centuries.

Finding out that there is no causality could certainly be an exercise in humility if you had a born-again absolutist point of view to start with... but we should recover from this fairly quickly. Recent theories point to the possibility that our universe is the result of the collision between two parallel universes with complementary fabric. From a cosmological perspective, its pretentious to address causality when we are still testing definitions for the time and space dimensions.

.... and why assume that ET's would be able to prove that causality does not exist ?!?!

IMHO, the Vatican is assessing its survivability and relevance in a context where the ET presence becomes a reality. Our evolving technology is improving the probabilities of detecting life (and possibly intelligent life) beyond our solar system. Facing these odds and building defensible apological argumentation becomes a priority you would think

 

[jpw.in.wi]

Are you saying 'causation exists'... and since when is that 'scientific knowledge' References please !! . You seem to be mixing biblical knowledge or human instinct with science.

So "real" scientists don't believe that there is such a thing as cause and effect? How can their results be repeatable/provable without such a relationship?

 

[Kieran]

It makes you wonder if the Catholic Church knows something so as to prepare people for what is coming.

I think that is possibility we can not discount. We might have lifeforms that can be explained more easily to people than others' But such an announcement of other life elsewhere will forever change how we view our world. We are well aware of the weirdness of the topic and oddity of peoples experiences, so i find it really hard to figure out, if the the topic becomes open and known, how will our world react to something that does not work on the same level as us.

Well i think/maybe?, the Vatican archives may indeed have more knowledge to this topic than anyone.

 

[Ezechiel]

So "real" scientists don't believe that there is such a thing as cause and effect? How can their results be repeatable/provable without such a relationship?

Cause and effect is relevant to the domain of science within the context and rules (expressed in validated formulas) that apply to this universe.

I was refering to your idea of 'uncaused First Cause' being replaced by a timeless and eternal soup of parralel universe collisions (requiring no sentient intervention ie. Gods).

Having an instantiator is fine....but who instantiated the instantiator ? LOL... very philosophical at this point

 

[jkoci]

Don't forget about Fred Hoyle too. He coined the phrase "Big Bang". Check out his other beliefs here.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1503721.stm

 

[Ezechiel]

It makes you wonder if the Catholic Church knows something so as to prepare people for what is coming.

IMHO, it is trying to prepare itself more than preparing people.

The idea is to transcend the issue and be able to bridge pre and post-disclosure eras with 'catholic-compatible' argumentation ... If you don't control the issue, the issue controls you .....and you lose credibility as the supreme authority in human spiritual affairs.

 

[TClaeys]

IMHO, it is trying to prepare itself more than preparing people.

The idea is to transcend the issue and be able to bridge pre and post-disclosure eras with 'catholic-compatible' argumentation ... If you don't control the issue, the issue controls you .....and you lose credibility as the supreme authority in human spiritual affairs.

Yeah, it kinda seems to be a case of CYA. Cover Your Ass. If we discover life elsewhere in the universe, the religions of the world had better have some kind of reconciliation towards their beliefs and their believers. And that answer seems to be, "It's OK, it's not against our beliefs".



However there may be even bigger questions and issues that may seep into the religious realm sooner than the discovery of ET. How would they reconcile the creation of artificial life which for all practical purposes would be "real" life?? The manipulation of genes to allow for all sorts of things, namely indefinite lifespans. I'm not sure how they handle cloning. But there seem to be a myriad of biological questions here on Earth that pose interesting questions that the religions probably have to account for.

 

[jpw.in.wi]

Having an instantiator is fine....but who instantiated the instantiator ? LOL... very philosophical at this point

Okay, just when I thought you were blowing everything I wrote out of the water ... are we essentially in agreement on a point here????

IMHO, it is trying to prepare itself more than preparing people ... to transcend the issue and be able to bridge pre and post-disclosure eras with 'catholic-compatible' argumentation ... you lose credibility as the supreme authority in human spiritual affairs.

Yeah, it kinda seems to be a case of CYA. Cover Your Ass. If we discover life elsewhere in the universe, the religions of the world had better have some kind of reconciliation towards their beliefs and their believers. And that answer seems to be, "It's OK, it's not against our beliefs".

Wow, just a few examples of the suspicion, the cynicism, and the vicious stereotyping of churchmen and their motives that one runs into far too often. Of course, no one believes members of the Catholic clergy are interested in actually discovering the TRUTH! Just very disappointing ...

 

[Schuyler]

It would be nice if the church were searching for "The Truth" and I hope at least some theologians are actually interested. Unfortunately, we have this "Jesus died on the cross and ascended to Heaven and only if you accept Jesus as your personal Savior will you get to Heaven at all" kind of thing to get through.

There are SOME seminaries where it is covertly acknowledged that Jesus was a charismatic man with a message, and until the church can say, "Well, the Ten Commandments are a good idea and perhaps we ought to concentrate on them" while leaving Jesus in the same category as Adam & Eve, the Turin Shroud, and a host of relics about which the church remains somewhat demure, we'll get nowhere.

I happen to believe (but I don't insist everyone else do so) that the church is on the right track vis-a-vis 'life after death' and what they call "Heaven." I suspect (but don't know for sure) that "Heaven" is another dimension and that we are multi-dimensional beings. I also suspect that Physics will eventually figure this out and that they are close to a breakthrough the same way Newtonian Physics encountered a breakthrough with Relativity and Quantum Mechanics.

So the church is positioned to take advantage of this possibility and will be able to say, "We told you so" if it happens as I've postulated. But the church is going to have to find a way to marginalize the dogma they've been feeding the masses and that he masses now believe. It's become so institutionalized and politicized that I think they will have a very difficult time doing it.