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The unscience of extra-nonsense

musictomyears said:
OK, here is the deal:

Arigo is one of the most famous, and best documented healers and spiritualist mediums ever, and he was so, long before this Paracast episode (which was excellent, IMHO). It is perhaps understandable that there are some who hadn't come across Arigo before. It indicates to me that they have done little to no research about the paranormal. If they had, they inevitably would have come across his name.

It is one thing to be ignorant. We all are, to some degree, and I would have thought that this forum also has an educational dimension. I personally come here to learn and to share knowledge. However, it is quite another to arrogantly, repetitively, stubbornly, if not pig-headedly, repeat, over and over again, one's ill-informed and factually wrong views. I don't understand why it should be so difficult to either say nothing, or, at least, find a few facts for backing up one's views.

I've been puzzled as to why his name rang no bells with me. I've done tons of research on the paranormal. Perhaps there are others like me and he really isn't as popular as he seems to you. I suppose it's possible I learned of him a long time ago and forgot. But so far as I know I haven't.
 
musictomyears said:
However, it is quite another to arrogantly, repetitively, stubbornly, if not pig-headedly, repeat, over and over again, one's ill-informed and factually wrong views.

You mean . . . like this 70% success 'fact' you're pulling from the guest stating that he doesn't know how many people were healed but 'someone' told him 70%? :p

I don't understand why it should be so difficult to either say nothing, or, at least, find a few facts for backing up one's views.

I asked for people to show me where I could find the 'facts' as stated by David S. dB suggested a book that I have yet to lay my hands on. You offered a section of the show that I listened to, but it hardly proved your point. The 'fact' is you don't know Arigo's success rate. Being mad at me for pointing out that no one seems to know his success rate it won't change that.

-DBTrek
 
There were only two healers in the last century who were globally famous, since they successfully treated patients in their tens of thousands. One was Arigo, the other was Harry Edwards. I find it difficult to imagine how one could research the paranormal, yet miss one or both. I find this even more remarkable, since, with regard to genuine spiritual healing, it is not the healer who makes claims of extraordinary paranormal phenomena taking place, but the thousands upon thousands of grateful patients. Neither Arigo or Edwards (and a few others) were trying to sell snake-oil, or any particular faith, to anybody. To the contrary, they just got on with their work, and their mission. Claiming otherwise speaks of ignorance, but not of rational or critical thinking.

As David said, certain things just *happened*, whether we like them or not. In the case of Arigo and Edwards, there are not only the testimonies of patients (Edwards kept thousands of letters of correspondence with his patients at his sanctuary in Shere, England), but also numerous newspaper reports, often in the form of front page news. All this is in the public domain, as Sonnenschein correctly alluded to. However, the fact that certain information is not available online, nicely presented for cut and paste jobbies, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Proper research involves more than calling up web pages after a 0.27 sec. Google search, in particular when relevant events took place many years ago.

About the question of success rates, there is not one therapist on Earth - conventional or alternative - who could provide exact figures about this aspect of his work. I have been a therapist myself, consequently I know this to be true. No matter how meticulously one keeps patient's records, many, many times it is not possible to follow up on the actually success of a particular treatment. That's because frequently patients don't return to the clinic after receiving one or more treatments, for a variety of reasons. For example: a) They don't require further interventions, since they are cured; b) They lost faith in the therapist or the particular form of therapy, and look for alternatives c) They are unable to return for other reasons, such us expensive bus/train/airplane fares, or changes in their personal circumstances.

Here is an experiment: Go to your local GP and ask him about his exact "success rate". I bet you my bottom dollar, he will either give you an incredulous stare, or laugh out loud. Why? Because, in the real world, running a clinic - any clinic - revolves around helping sick and needy people. It doesn't revolve around cynics who want to pick someone's efforts apart, for entirely selfish reasons.

BTW, an estimated success rate of 70% is in line with many other healers of note, regardless of country, age, race, or denomination. However, what sets Arigo and Edwards apart are the extraordinary large numbers of cured patients, who enjoyed being part of said 70%.
 
musictomyears said:
One was Arigo, the other was Harry Edwards. I find it difficult to imagine how one could research the paranormal, yet miss one or both.

Some people's interest in the paranormal doesn't extend to psychic healers.

Neither Arigo or Edwards (and a few others) were trying to sell snake-oil, or any particular faith, to anybody.

To be fair, Arigo did write perscriptions for some patients that were to be filled by his brother's pharmacy. Cha-ching!

About the question of success rates, there is not one therapist on Earth - conventional or alternative - who could provide exact figures about this aspect of his work. I have been a therapist myself, consequently I know this to be true. No matter how meticulously one keeps patient's records, many, many times it is not possible to follow up on the actually success of a particular treatment. That's because frequently patients don't return to the clinic after receiving one or more treatments, for a variety of reasons.

Exactly right.

This is why one can be rightfully skeptical of anyone claiming a 70% success rate as fact. Such a claim is highly questionable for the very reasons you've just outlined.

So why the hostility from so many for pointing out an extraordinary and unsupportable claim?

Here is an experiment: Go to your local GP and ask him about his exact "success rate". I bet you my bottom dollar, he will either give you an incredulous stare, or laugh out loud. Why? Because, in the real world, running a clinic - any clinic - revolves around helping sick and needy people. It doesn't revolve around cynics who want to pick someone's efforts apart, for entirely selfish reasons.

Selfish reasons? What selfish reasons?

I saw an extraordinary and unsupportable claim (or two) and pointed them out. You criticized me for it, name called, and have now backtracked and admitted that these success rates can't be known. Why must my motives have some sort of sinister origin because my opinion differs from yours?

-DBTrek
 
DBTrek said:
Selfish reasons? What selfish reasons? -DBTrek

Selfish, because you have, so far, not shown any willingness to understand and learn from the phenomenon of spiritual healing. Rather, you insist on poking fun at something you have no real interest in. It is also apparent that you don't understand what I explained about success rates. I think this exchange has run its course.
 
musictomyears said:
There were only two healers in the last century who were globally famous, since they successfully treated patients in their tens of thousands. One was Arigo, the other was Harry Edwards. I find it difficult to imagine how one could research the paranormal, yet miss one or both.

Then prepare to be AMAZED, as I've never heard of either of them. Except of course thanks to the paracast I've heard of Arigo and now you've pointed out this Edwards fellow.

The paranormal is a huge, all encompassing field, to try and study it all would take a lifetime and would also require a universal interest in all things. Who's got that kind of time? Me, I got bills to pay, so I'll spend what little time I can spare on what interests me. Faith healing doesn't.

YOU'RE focussed on spirit healing, so naturally you would care. For the rest of us, faith healer=fraud and on a scale much higher than the UFO frauds or ghost frauds or even run-of-the-mill psychic frauds. It's not simply a matter of ignorance, it's very much a matter of interest and preference.
 
A.LeClair said:
A person's testimony where they have nothing to gain has more weight than someone who does have something to gain. Not proof, but better evidence or testimony in a qualitative sense.

I see your point, and I agree. But to me it seems like David is saying such evidence is irrefutable. That is what I was wanting him to clarify.
 
Ankhes said:
I see your point, and I agree. But to me it seems like David is saying such evidence is irrefutable. That is what I was wanting him to clarify.

The point is a valid one, but we must also consider that monetary gain is not the sole motivator for human action. Fame, infamy, name recognition, self aggrandizement, attention of ones peers . . . all of these are possible reasons for making extraordinary claims as well. Why do some people confess to murders they do not commit? It's not for the money.
<shrug>

-DBTrek
 
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