The Official Paracast Political Thread! — Part Five

[pigfarmer]

I see quite a bit of gun stuff. I'd like to weigh in .... but gotta make dinner. More later. In the meantime, this is what this thread made gurgle up from memory:

 

[pigfarmer]

And Oklahoma City, where the offenders used a bomb?

A terrorist act doesn't require a suicide vest or a verbal outburst. Do your research.

You can too, Sparky.

After Oklahoma City laws that actually made sense were passed that made it difficult to obtain the materials to make a bomb like that. Not impossible just with scrutiny ... God maybe an effective background check. Those laws didn't prevent the completely uninvolved people that actually needed and wanted the materials for their own reasons from getting them. If I were a farmer in the area you bet your bippy that I wouldn't be bitching about it publicly.

If I were a local farmer at that time and saw laws being passed due to political grandstanding that affected my ability to function for no good purpose I would object. Loudly.

OK City comparison isn't a direct comparison.

Lobbyists like the NRA are as much the reason for lack of effective gun control measures as are politicians who pander to opinion polls and legislate without real knowledge about the subject matter and what's worse, little concern is required because bashing guns in the wake of a mass shooting is low hanging fruit and always seized upon by the unclever.

In New York the SAFE Act is a perfect example. The day it was passed as a reaction to Sandy Hook - and because the governor wants a presidential run down the road. Every police officer in the entire state was in violation because of magazine capacity. I know several and believe me that went over like a fart in church - as well as their requirement to do ... something ... that hadn't been clearly defined.

Incidentally, anyone using the term 'clip' probably isn't a regular shooter.

Ammunition control measures that had no funding or support structure were mandated and the registration it required is a joke. The SAFE Act accomplished bupkis. Believe it or not there are actually one or two points it tried to make that - wait for it - as a gun owner I completely agree with. In fact in one instance it prevents me from doing something I would like to do but I am reasonable enough to say OK sometimes the cure hurts and can go without. I get it. Much like an OK farmer - or any actually, I think those laws were federal.

Effective laws that make sense are why we don't have lead in gas or paint and have to wear seat belts. Gun control is much more complicated but should require the same consideration. The SAFE Act is full of holes and ain't one of them yet here it is up my nose. In fact I could go a step further. There are a few things I could point to as a knowledgeable person that are generally unknown that could make the Boston Marathon bombing look like a warm up but who could I possibly relay this to and what would be done? You know why it is unknown? Because it isn't sexy. You can't have a press conference and wake a 'bump stock' around as the source of the problem. It isn't a sound byte. It is an unrecognized threat. But of course nobody was willing to listen to the people actually affected by the law it was ramrodded though so quick it surprised us all. I made a point to track down and actually speak to my local representatives about it. Cornpones pandering to opinion that don't know jack **** about the law they were just told to vote in favor of by their political patron. You used to live in this state and should be familiar with that stink out of Albany. Crap, of the "three men in a room" that passed this asinine Act for political currency TWO of them are in the pokey for corruption - taking money for their votes instead of voting as they were elected to do.

 

[pigfarmer]

The point is that gun laws don't work or mean anything. Ask any left wing liberal who's squawking about guns and ask "What law would you propose that would eliminate gun violence?" Most will get annoyed with the question and walk away or just stand there with a blank look on their face. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to understand this;

The criminals will ALWAYS have guns. They don't go into the local gun shop, shop around for something they like, ask to buy it, fill out the paperwork, wait for the background check, etc. They are buying them from Jorge out of the trunk of his Buick with the serial numbers scratched off it. The people who get punished are people like me; law abiding citizens, never have been arrested for ANYTHING, no domestic violence issues, no DUI's, etc. I got a concealed carry permit in Maine, Washington & Oregon. I have the RIGHT to defend myself, my children & my property. God forbid I'm at McDonalds with my kids and I start hearing "PAP! PAP! PAP! (the sound of a hand gun going off) - I, at a MINIMUM - at least have A CHANCE to protect my kids and myself and possibly other patrons. What the liberals want (in this same scenario) is for me to just curdle up in fetal position begging for my life (and my kids) and then crossing my fingers that someone dialed 911 and then WAITING for the police to show up. That is ridiculous. There are all kinds of stories in the media (that are usually squashed) of how someone with a concealed weapon stopped an invasion/robbery etc. But MSM & fake news will never promote those stories because it doesn't fit their narrative. It happened right at my local mall - guy started shooting people in the food court (Clackamas Towne Center Mall in Oregon). And who saved the day? A guy with a concealed weapons permit. But fake news will never broadcast that story (but I have the link saved for the news piece on it if anyone is interested). I mean, even my 9 year old daughter gets it. She asked me one day on the way to the orthodontist (I explained to her that I can't carry my gun in NJ - up to this moment, she wasn't aware of that and assumed I was still carrying like when we lived in Oregon) "Dad, say if some bad guy wanted to hurt us, but you couldn't protect us because you are not allowed to carry your gun - can you sue the state?" Even a child gets it. Put it this way, if you were stuck on a deserted island and someone gave you a choice; you can have either a ZERO chance of being rescued or SOME chance of being rescued. Is anybody really going to pick zero chance? At least with a firearm - you have a chance. Left wing whackos paint the picture that it's the law abiding citizen with a concealed handgun that is going to be the problem which couldn't be farther from the truth. The problem is the criminals, thieves, gangbangers that illegally own & carry a gun. I would bet you $1 million (if I had it) that if some scenario happened at my local mall (god forbid) and I eliminated the shooter - that the families of the other patrons would be thanking me for the rest of their lives & would be super grateful. It's like abandoning ship in the ocean; do you want a life vest so that you have SOME chance of staying afloat & surviving or would you rather have NO life vest?

But again; name or propose a law - that will eliminate gun violence? I'd be open to hearing the suggestion.

I challenge you to watch this hearing & testimony from a woman who lost her parents from a shooter & not think to yourself "Wow. That makes sense."

I think one of the senators Dr. Suzanna Gratia Hupp was speaking to was Chuck Schumer. Despite the story she told and the rock solid reasons she has to want to carry only a few years later he forced a vote through in on gun control measure here in NY that are just plain stupid and are exactly to the T what she was trying to warn that exact same senator about.
No this knob, no that doodad, no bayonets. Because there have been so many bayonettings, right? My aching ****bag.

That said – and I get what you are saying and agree - I couldn’t help but think that Gabrielle Giffords and Dianne Feinstein are equally entitled to their opinions.

I wish both sides of this issue could be examined with impartiality. Where’s Sarek when you need him?

 

[pigfarmer]

And @Gene Steinberg , the amazing trend toward peace is continuing. Compare the Final Scoreboard for the Ramadan Bombathon of 2017 with the scorboard tally for 2018 with only one day left in the sacred month.

I like this and I gotcha but think that Muslim terrorism is a result of decades of poor foreign policy and more than a century of Western behavior in the middle east.

When Christians go nuts they either start cults or form Crusades.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Did you ever see a movie entitled, "The Siege"? It's very prescient about how we treated the people who became terrorists, and how they struck back.

 

[pigfarmer]

Did you ever see a movie entitled, "The Siege"? It's very prescient about how we treated the people who became terrorists, and how they struck back.

Nope, sorry.

True that some movies have a valid point to make and that some people will only be aware if there is some sort of pop culture reference. It isn't as if they don't have value - look at some of the propaganda films released during war time. I am not referring to The Siege as propaganda but those old war films are examples of a political messages being delivered relatively simplistically to a mass audience for a purpose. Might not be the best analogy so I hope you see my point.

I don't know how or if movie expected to produce revenue would portray underlying causes of Islamic unrest and the terrorism. It isn't a short story and isn't easily packaged for mass consumption. You can't watch Saving Private Ryan and Band of Brothers and think you've gained real understanding about World War II.

 

[Constance]

I am hopeful that Trump's outrageous infliction of suffering and personal terror on children arriving at the southern border will be a turning point in his influence over many members of his 'base'. Extract from attached article from MSNBC and link to it:

"For weeks, Donald Trump’s official line has been that his administration has no choice but to break up immigrant families and separate children from their parents. According to the president, this is only happening because of a Democratic law – a claim he’s repeated constantly, refusing to accept responsibility for his own policy.

This is, of course, as ugly a lie as Trump has told since taking office. The law the president points to does not exist. As many administration officials have already conceded, the policy was part of a deliberate choice on the part of the president, who could reverse course at any time. Some in the White House have even bragged about it.

Indeed, the New York Times had an excellent piece over the weekend documenting how the president and his team decided to pull the trigger in recent months.

[F]or George W. Bush and Barack Obama, the idea of crying children torn from their parents’ arms was simply too inhumane – and too politically perilous – to embrace as policy, and Mr. Trump, though he had made an immigration crackdown one of the central issues of his campaign, succumbed to the same reality, publicly dropping the idea after [White House Chief of Staff John Kelly’s comments in March] touched off a swift backlash.

But advocates inside the administration, most prominently Stephen Miller, Mr. Trump’s senior policy adviser, never gave up on the idea. Last month, facing a sharp uptick in illegal border crossings, Mr. Trump ordered a new effort to criminally prosecute anyone who crossed the border unlawfully – with few exceptions for parents traveling with their minor children.
We know when the president did this, we know why, and we know how. We even know who was helping drive the decision behind the scenes. Trump may be desperate to shift the blame for his policy to those who have nothing to do with it, but top members of his team have openly acknowledged that this was, and is, the White House’s idea. . . ."

www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/trump-sees-immigrant-children-bargaining-chips-political-fight

 

[pigfarmer]

I am hopeful that Trump's outrageous infliction of suffering and personal terror on children arriving at the southern border will be a turning point in his influence over many members of his 'base'. Extract from attached article from MSNBC and link to it:

"For weeks, Donald Trump’s official line has been that his administration has no choice but to break up immigrant families and separate children from their parents. According to the president, this is only happening because of a Democratic law – a claim he’s repeated constantly, refusing to accept responsibility for his own policy.

This is, of course, as ugly a lie as Trump has told since taking office. The law the president points to does not exist. As many administration officials have already conceded, the policy was part of a deliberate choice on the part of the president, who could reverse course at any time. Some in the White House have even bragged about it.

Indeed, the New York Times had an excellent piece over the weekend documenting how the president and his team decided to pull the trigger in recent months.

[F]or George W. Bush and Barack Obama, the idea of crying children torn from their parents’ arms was simply too inhumane – and too politically perilous – to embrace as policy, and Mr. Trump, though he had made an immigration crackdown one of the central issues of his campaign, succumbed to the same reality, publicly dropping the idea after [White House Chief of Staff John Kelly’s comments in March] touched off a swift backlash.

But advocates inside the administration, most prominently Stephen Miller, Mr. Trump’s senior policy adviser, never gave up on the idea. Last month, facing a sharp uptick in illegal border crossings, Mr. Trump ordered a new effort to criminally prosecute anyone who crossed the border unlawfully – with few exceptions for parents traveling with their minor children.
We know when the president did this, we know why, and we know how. We even know who was helping drive the decision behind the scenes. Trump may be desperate to shift the blame for his policy to those who have nothing to do with it, but top members of his team have openly acknowledged that this was, and is, the White House’s idea. . . ."

www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/trump-sees-immigrant-children-bargaining-chips-political-fight

I am equally horrified at the imagery. Although it’s not the same thing the visceral response reminded me of Elian Gonzalez. And a visceral response is exactly why the video of those kids in lockup is making the rounds.


This is a problem that spans multiple administrations and party affiliations. Our politics are different but it is equally heartbreaking to me. I could make the standard flip response of ‘if the parents didn’t attempt to enter illegally they wouldn’t have been separated in the first place’ but you know, after reading the paper this morning saying things like that leaves the taste of ashes in my mouth. Even worse is the pizza delivery guy hauled away recently because he brought a pie to the wrong people who, while technically right, should probably have just left the poor guy alone.

No idea what the answer is and pointing to DT as the source of the problem is far too simplistic. He speaks so damned poorly that he calls down the lightning himself and God, he does seem to be engineered to handle the current which is why I am fascinated by the whole thing. Eloquent speechifying would only do what’s already been done for decades – talk about it until it leaves the news cycle and accomplish nothing except further refinement of the art of blamestorming. As bad as it sounds he has a point - humanitarianism and government largesse come real real cost. Someone has to pay for it.

Incidentally, the US has turned away refugees in the face of a humanitarian crisis before under much worse circumstances. You can’t ignore the basic message that at some point the cost reaches a tipping point. I believe that’s the crisis Angela Merkel is facing right now.

If I had a leak and water was pouring into my basement I’d first have to stop it from coming in before I could figure out what to do about the water that’s in there.

 

[Ezechiel]

As expected the DOW is tanking as Trump is pondering an extra 200 billion in tariffs on Chinese goods.
Dow sheds 2018 gains on latest trade threat, set for longest losing streak in 15 months

Old Chinese proverb: 'Be careful what you wish for, lest it come true'

Trump is desperate for a 'fake flag' war to divert attention away from the Russian cloud. Paul Manafort is in prison, Michael Cohen is about to flip... Putin is about to release the golden shower tape...

Canada is a national security menace LOL. You can't make this stuff up, he's going to drag the planet down with him if Mueller takes too much time.

 

[pigfarmer]

Political grandstanding. Nobody cares about those kids it's all a big sound byte show. If the answer to the problem for those children could be instantly solved by Rachel Maddow writing a check for one million dollars out of her personal account I doubt she'd cough up the cake. It would however serve as fodder for her next 100 shows. And before we start sputtering about her then remove her name and put Sean Hannity's in there. Leave Tucker Carlson out of it - he always has that slightly angry befuddled look. Maybe its IBS.

God Forbid the countries these unfortunates come from or the countries they pass through should bear any responsibility.

 

[Ezechiel]

Political grandstanding. Nobody cares about those kids it's all a big sound byte show. If the answer to the problem for those children could be instantly solved by Rachel Maddow writing a check for one million dollars out of her personal account I doubt she'd cough up the cake. It would however serve as fodder for her next 100 shows. And before we start sputtering about her then remove her name and put Sean Hannity's in there. Leave Tucker Carlson out of it - he always has that slightly angry befuddled look. Maybe its IBS.

God Forbid the countries these unfortunates come from or the countries they pass through should bear any responsibility.

Actually most do... which should give you a hint about the mid-terms.

Mid-term election will be about what the USA is really about... a choice between the Fourth Reich and something closer to Norway or maybe Finland ?

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Political grandstanding. Nobody cares about those kids it's all a big sound byte show. If the answer to the problem for those children could be instantly solved by Rachel Maddow writing a check for one million dollars out of her personal account I doubt she'd cough up the cake. It would however serve as fodder for her next 100 shows. And before we start sputtering about her then remove her name and put Sean Hannity's in there. Leave Tucker Carlson out of it - he always has that slightly angry befuddled look. Maybe its IBS.

If Maddow could do something, I am sure she would and can. Carlson is a known bigot, and Hannity is a grandstanding fool.

 

[pigfarmer]

When I turn on the TV I view everything that comes out of it as entertainment and see them all as the same regardless of what specific nonsense is being peddled. They probably get together once n a while for a big laugh on all of us

 

[Creepy Green Light]

Regarding Sarah Sanders;

"True enough any restaurant reserves the right to refuse service, EXCEPT if Starbucks kicks out non purchasing blacks wanting to use bathroom. Then all hell breaks loose, CNN shows up, the LEFT cries discrimination. Then it's not OK I guess. Lefty logic." - Sheriff David Clarke

 

[pigfarmer]

I wonder if the restaurant owner benefited from the tax cut.....

 

[Ezechiel]

Whoah... you guys are on one wild and crazy ride for the next 40 years with Kennedy out leaving you with a biased Supreme Court.

Add that to the fact that your current version of a Republic is holding by a thinning thread whose name is Robert Mueller. I'd say, short of a civil war and armed conflict, best you can expect is a radical split of the country based on 'all important' social values that vary according to level of education and rural/urban situation. With Trump remaining in charge, I'm expecting no less than population migrations from states that define themselves as ultra-conservative to liberal states and vice-versa.

'In God we Trust' religious lobbies have been extremely active for the last 30 years and this is their moment of glory riding on the back of a lying conniving morally defective leader. If there's any real justice on this planet, this will be twilight's last gleaming for this brand of idiocy.

 

[Creepy Green Light]

If there's any real justice on this planet,

....Crooked Hillary & Crooked Loretta Lynch would be in prison. Just sayin. But unfortunately we live in a two tiered justice system.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Total stuff and nonsense. There is no evidence either committed a crime.

Two-tiered?

While Comey was talking about Hillary and writing to Congress late in October, they weren't talking about Trump and the Russians so as not to appear tainted.

Comey's actions clearly elected Trump. You cannot dispute that. So how was Comey doing things against Trump — well until he was fired because he wouldn't give up on Russia.

 

[Ezechiel]

....Crooked Hillary & Crooked Loretta Lynch would be in prison. Just sayin. But unfortunately we live in a two tiered justice system.

Small beans compared to what's about to become your future... A crooked Hillary or Loretta Lynch exists only in some weird concocted tainted and fake Fox propaganda. Your country has been invaded by a populist fascist leader.

Only a fourth Reich supporter would want to prematurely end a legit investigation run by republican 'Mueller'.

Here's what Joseph Goebbels looks like in 2018

Gotta admit he had more hair in 1933

 

[Tyger]

Strongly reccomened people read this book: 'Democracy in Chains: The Deep History of the Radical Right's Stealth Plan for America' by Nancy MacLean. If you read nothing else read the final chapel 'Get Ready' to understand what is in store for America in the very short term. Brazil-like favelas anyone?

'Democracy in Chains: The Deep History of the Radical Right's Stealth Plan for America' by Nancy MacLean.

Winner of the Lillian Smith Book Award
Winner of the Los Angeles Times Book Prize
Finalist for the National Book Award
The Nation's "Most Valuable Book"

“[A] vibrant intellectual history of the radical right . . .” – The Atlantic

“This sixty-year campaign to make libertarianism mainstream and eventually take the government itself is at the heart of Democracy in Chains. . . . If you're worried about what all this means for America's future, you should be” – NPR

An explosive exposé of the right’s relentless campaign to eliminate unions, suppress voting, privatize public education, stop action on climate change, and alter the Constitution.

"Behind today’s headlines of billionaires taking over our government is a secretive political establishment with long, deep, and troubling roots. The capitalist radical right has been working not simply to change who rules, but to fundamentally alter the rules of democratic governance. But billionaires did not launch this movement; a white intellectual in the embattled Jim Crow South did. Democracy in Chains names its true architect—the Nobel Prize-winning political economist James McGill Buchanan—and dissects the operation he and his colleagues designed over six decades to alter every branch of government to disempower the majority.

"In a brilliant and engrossing narrative, Nancy MacLean shows how Buchanan forged his ideas about government in a last gasp attempt to preserve the white elite’s power in the wake of Brown v. Board of Education. In response to the widening of American democracy, he developed a brilliant, if diabolical, plan to undermine the ability of the majority to use its numbers to level the playing field between the rich and powerful and the rest of us.

"Corporate donors and their right-wing foundations were only too eager to support Buchanan’s work in teaching others how to divide America into 'makers' and 'takers.' And when a multibillionaire on a messianic mission to rewrite the social contract of the modern world, Charles Koch, discovered Buchanan, he created a vast, relentless, and multi-armed machine to carry out Buchanan’s strategy.

"Without Buchanan's ideas and Koch's money, the libertarian right would not have succeeded in its stealth takeover of the Republican Party as a delivery mechanism. Now, with Mike Pence as Vice President, the cause has a longtime loyalist in the White House, not to mention a phalanx of Republicans in the House, the Senate, a majority of state governments, and the courts, all carrying out the plan. That plan includes harsher laws to undermine unions, privatizing everything from schools to health care and Social Security, and keeping as many of us as possible from voting. Based on ten years of unique research, Democracy in Chains tells a chilling story of right-wing academics and big money run amok. This revelatory work of scholarship is also a call to arms to protect the achievements of twentieth-century American self-government."​