The Art of Magical Thinking

[Gene Steinberg]

Proud to be. But we have to be careful about the name Tea Party these days.

 

[Randall]

well - you probably won't like my last post on that subject then, then :-( but I think all of us here in the West have a ways to go to justify any indignation on almost any subject - we consume far out of proportion . . . the fact that you had the money and leisure to observe this in a Starbucks is some evidence of my point . . . it's not the first time you've mentioned Starbucks - so, if it is applicable - drop that expensive coffee habit and donate to the homeless! or better, go in and buy a coffee and take it to a homeless person, establish some communication - there is a tremendous need for contact and social acceptance there (yes - for those who bring it up - you can get taken advantage of - that comes with the survival mode those folks are in . . .) and there is probably a homeless person living very close to that Starbucks, if my experience is any indication - you might (or might not) be amazed at resourceful people can be . . .

On the contrary ( and don't forget to click the link back there ). You make a good point as usual. I'm not casting judgement on pet owners as much as describing the thought process I go through as a non-pet owner whenever the subject of pets comes up or someone asks why I don't have one, or if I want one. If I don't explain myself then the automatic assumption is that I'm an animal hater because who could be so mean to cute little Cuddles as to not want to adopt her, and if I explain my humanitarian preference, I'm still no better off because the assumption is made that I've just cast a moral judgement on them as pet owners. It's a lose - lose situation. I also made a point up-front of declaring that I'm no self-sacrificing saint, but I still can't rationalize that just because I'm not doing enough already that it justifies adding to my own hypocrisy.

 

[smcder]

0

On the contrary ( and don't forget to click the link back there ). You make a good point as usual. I'm not casting judgement on pet owners as much as describing the thought process I go through as a non-pet owner whenever the subject of pets comes up or someone asks why I don't have one, or if I want one. If I don't explain myself then the automatic assumption is that I'm an animal hater because who could be so mean to cute little Cuddles as to not want to adopt her, and if I explain my humanitarian preference, I'm still no better off because the assumption is made that I've just cast a moral judgement on them as pet owners. It's a lose - lose situation. I also made a point up-front of declaring that I'm no self-sacrificing saint, but I still can't rationalize that just because I'm not doing enough already that it justifies adding to my own hypocrisy.

I think we are going to get along just fine . . . (as long as I get to be Bogart . . . ;-)

 

[Burnt State]

And to contine to kick it around a bit, Steiger, in the last episode, brought up anther repeating paranormal meme: once you get activated (touched by the irrational realm) by witnessing some strange event, other oddities follow. Whether it is the story of the UFO witness, who subsequently exeriences poltergeist activity, or the contactee who spirals off to bizarre heights, it seems that one inexplicable event can lead to more weird experiences. What is this all about? Why do we call these things high strangeness?

(i'm also quite confused by the Moody quote that does not appear in this thread - can he not speak for himself - what's that all about @ufology ?)

Regardless, I find that there is a big difference between having inexplicable experiences and wishful thinking, a lack of critical examination or blind belief in someone else's story. Witnessing objects at a distance do not produce these effects, but the "close encounter" does seem to produce unique aftereffects. The meme mentioned above is worth examining, as it repeats in the documented literature, as Steiger (the man of a 1001 stories) mentioned. I don't understand it, but it's there. Are these folk destabilizing and just plain hallucinating or have they actually been "activated" and given the secret kaleidoscopic lens to look through? New DMT, dopamine triggers - is this connected to chemistry?

 

[Randall]

... i'm also quite confused by the Moody quote that does not appear in this thread - can he not speak for himself - what's that all about @ufology ? ...

Where? What? Huh? You think you're confused !

 

[Burnt State]

In the post below and then there are more responses and other Lance quotes that are not on this thread like:

It is hilarious that a large number of folks here think that creativity has helped us understand UFO's better!

Really?

What do we now know through the benefit of this creativity? What do we now know (other than the insurmountable and growing stack of rational evidence for prosaic explanations) that we didn't know in 1947?

Lance

Where'd it come from?

Then you said:

From the perspective of understanding what we believe to be the objective material reality of UFOs as alien craft, I think your point is fair. However I put a checkmark on 3 and 4 because creativity ( option 3 ) can be considered within the context of "understanding and appreciating strange phenomenon" from a historical, cultural, and mythological perspective. Perhaps it may even help us understand the objective reality of it in some way. For example Phillip J. Klass' plasma theory for UFOs was IMO creative, and the follow-up studies led to the conclusion that the plasma theory was unlikely. Skeptics are often very creative thinkers. It's just applied from a different perspective, and I sincerely think we can benefit as much from creative skepticism as creative investigation.

 

[boomerang]

On the contrary ( and don't forget to click the link back there ). You make a good point as usual. I'm not casting judgement on pet owners as much as describing the thought process I go through as a non-pet owner whenever the subject of pets comes up or someone asks why I don't have one, or if I want one. If I don't explain myself then the automatic assumption is that I'm an animal hater because who could be so mean to cute little Cuddles as to not want to adopt her, and if I explain my humanitarian preference, I'm still no better off because the assumption is made that I've just cast a moral judgement on them as pet owners. It's a lose - lose situation. I also made a point up-front of declaring that I'm no self-sacrificing saint, but I still can't rationalize that just because I'm not doing enough already that it justifies adding to my own hypocrisy.

The waste of conversational bandwidth is what I find puzzling. There seems to be a protocol "these days" amongst young people (says Mr. Metamucil here) to avoid like the plague conversational subject matter fit for thinking adults. This often seems true even of those with college degrees. And I know they can't all be stupid. I hope it's different in Canada.

Or--maybe I'm just gettin' old. No: I AM old.

 

[Randall]

In the post below and then there are more responses and other Lance quotes that are not on this thread like: Where'd it come from?

I think the mystery quotes may be something smcder had included as quotes from Lance without using the BB code, so they got dragged along when I responded to him someplace. If you really want to know, I suggest you go back and follow the breadcrumbs. Or if you have a specific question, maybe we can clear it up that way.

 

[Randall]

The waste of conversational bandwidth is what I find puzzling. There seems to be a protocol "these days" amongst young people (says Mr. Metamucil here) to avoid like the plague conversational subject matter fit for thinking adults. This often seems true even of those with college degrees. And I know they can't all be stupid. I hope it's different in Canada.

Or--maybe I'm just gettin' old. No: I AM old.

I don't know how the comment you made above is relevant to the post of mine you quoted. Can you please clarify?

 

[Oakenwulf]

k

Magical thinking is fine so long as when it becomes a more serious consideration, it's tempered with critical thinking. In the meantime magical thinking allows us the freedom to enjoy entertainment by suspending our disbelief, frees us to be creative in ways that cannot be expressed in purely scientific terms, allows us to recognize how magical thinkers view the world and where they go wrong, gives us permission to test magical thinking for ourselves to see if maybe there is something to it that science may have missed, and in general, makes the world a more colorful place to live in.

The downside is when critical thinking is discarded and replaced by magical thinking in a way that is detrimental to real life. For example, the management at the workplace of a friend of mine got into the magical thinking promoted by The Secret and started requiring everyone to follow the guidelines set out in the book as they had personally interpreted them, resulting in a lot of problems that the management subsequently blamed on the staff for not being in line with the program.

Heh, I would prefer to use both critical and magical thinking then each one as is, using the secret as a guide oh ah no, magical thinking is creativity and critical thinking is stepping outside the box, very few people do this, I think we could come closer to answers if we just looked at things differently. You cant replace one with the other or disregard one or the other.
a excellent example of this is how Sherlock Holmes thinks, now I got to find me a nice excerpt to back this, but I think you will know what I mean.

 

[Jeff Davis]

"So why would I want anything to do with this illness?

Because I honestly believe that as a result of it I have felt more things, more deeply; had more experiences, more intensely; loved more, and been more loved; laughed more often for having cried more often; appreciated more the springs, for all the winters; worn death “as close as dungarees,” appreciated it – and life – more; seen the finest and most terrible in people, and slowly learned the values of caring, loyalty, and seeing things through. I think I have seen the breadth and depth and width of my heart, and seen how frail they both are, and how ultimately unknowable they both are. Depressed, I have crawled on my hands and knees to get across a room, and have done it for month after month. But, normal or high, I have run faster, thought faster, loved faster than most I know. And I think much of this is related to my illness – the intensity it gives to things and the perspective it forces on me. I think it has made me test the limits of my mind (which, while wanting, is holding) and the limits of my upbringing, family, education and friends.


The countless hypomanias, and mania itself, all have brought into my life a different level of sensing and feeling and thinking. Even when I have been most psychotic – delusional, hallucinating, frenzied – I have been aware of finding new corners in my mind and heart. Some of those corners were incredible and beautiful and took my breath away and made me feel as though I could die right then and the images would sustain me. Some of them were grotesque and ugly and I never wanted to know they were there or see them again. But, always, there were those new corners and – when feeling my normal self – I cannot imagine becoming jaded to life, because I know of those limitless corners, with their limitless views."

So . . . count me in.

Imagine if you were IGNORED here as you and that other IDIOT ignored me? I loath people like yourself, and the other idiots that were in that thread that you all dissed me in. You all are about as real as a 3 dollar bill. Worthless and disgusting tripe.

 

[Randall]

Imagine if you were IGNORED here as you and that other IDIOT ignored me? I loath people like yourself, and the other idiots that were in that thread that you all dissed me in. You all are about as real as a 3 dollar bill. Worthless and disgusting tripe.

What are you on about now Jeff?

 

[smcder]

Imagine if you were IGNORED here as you and that other IDIOT ignored me? I loath people like yourself, and the other idiots that were in that thread that you all dissed me in. You all are about as real as a 3 dollar bill. Worthless and disgusting tripe.

If you are asking me how I feel about being ignored - I don't like it (and I do have considerable experience with it) - and I wouldn't want someone else to experience those feelings as a result of my actions - so if you are saying that I ignored you, please let me know how specifically - I haven't replied to all of the posts out there - Ufology and I have been in an extended discussion and I have focused on that - it has been time consuming, but it's where we started on the thread and I'd like to see it through - but there have been other excellent posts on the thread that I'm interested in - in the meantime, I'm working a lot now because of the holidays and when I'm not working I'm chopping wood for the winter and doing other house-hold tasks.

Is it the statement I posted above, the description of manic-depressive illness, that you feel is worthless and disgusting tripe? Or something else?

 

[Jeff Davis]

No, the fact that you expressed this condition fills me with compassion, but in lieu of recent COMMUNITY discussion matters, not so much so. What I know to be unquestionable tripe is when individuals are elitists and insist that others discuss hypothetical and fantastic imaginings via some pseudo intellectual terminology roadmap abatement. That's BS. It's also BS that here in this thread, you veer into the completely and totally personal subjective issues of self without even considering the exact same from others that yes, have done precisely the same to which you ignored me due to some educationally corrupted semantics war. That POs me to no end, especially when the damn subject matter is one that I brought up in first place. My time and heart felt energy is as valuable as anyone else. Between you and the two other intelligent people discussing the matter, it was CLEARLY suggested via supreme ignorance of myself that I didn't deserve as much kindness. Yep, that's BS too.

 

[smcder]

No, the fact that you expressed this condition fills me with compassion, but in lieu of recent COMMUNITY discussion matters, not so much so. What I know to be unquestionable tripe is when individuals are elitists and insist that others discuss hypothetical and fantastic imaginings via some pseudo intellectual terminology roadmap abatement. That's BS. It's also BS that here in this thread, you veer into the completely and totally personal subjective issues of self without even considering the exact same from others that yes, have done precisely the same to which you ignored me due to some educationally corrupted semantics war. That POs me to no end, especially when the damn subject matter is one that I brought up in first place. My time and heart felt energy is as valuable as anyone else. Between you and the two other intelligent people discussing the matter, it was CLEARLY suggested via supreme ignorance of myself that I didn't deserve as much kindness. Yep, that's BS too.

I don't recall insisting that anyone discuss anything. If you have no interest in the topic, you don't have to follow it. I had hoped to talk about a lot of things that have been brought up but as I said the discussion turned out to be more involved than I expected - you could have said, "hey guys, why don't we talk about something else for a while?" or you could have started another thread . . . I also don't understand why you attach so much importance to mine or others attention - ? I don't have anything special to offer - I just felt like I was enjoying a discussion on something I've not had the opportunity to talk about since college - and have now been blind-sided by your anger.

Also, I don't understand this statement:

"It's also BS that here in this thread, you veer into the completely and totally personal subjective issues of self without even considering the exact same from others that yes, have done precisely the same to which you ignored me due to some educationally corrupted semantics war."

Again, if it's somehow about the description of manic-depressive illness, I didn't write that - I thought I made that clear and to me the poast is relevant because it talks about a person seeing and knowing things that they would not have seen without their experience of illness, which I thought had to do with the forum topic? Does it not?

 

[smcder]

Imagine if you were IGNORED here as you and that other IDIOT ignored me? I loath people like yourself, and the other idiots that were in that thread that you all dissed me in. You all are about as real as a 3 dollar bill. Worthless and disgusting tripe.

Jeff, a good standard for online behavior is to ask whether you would make the statement to that person's face . . .

 

[Jeff Davis]

I am not going to denigrate this magical thread any longer. If you have anything else to convey to me, do so in private. Yes, you already ignored a private message from me as well. I am placing those I have referred to here on my ignore list. I've had it with the predictable snob treatment and will never be sickened by it's member specific predictable routine here again.

And yes, you can bet EVERY dollar you've made in your entire life on the FACT that anything I state on an internet forum, I would state to a person's face in a heart beat. No question. I put MORE stock in online discussions than those I have casually in person anyhow. MUCH more so. When's the last time you took the time to write out a conversation you were having with someone else in person? Get real.

 

[smcder]

I am not going to denigrate this magical thread any longer. If you have anything else to convey to me, do so in private. Yes, you already ignored a private message from me as well. I am placing those I have referred to here on my ignore list. I've had it with the predictable snob treatment and will never be sickened by it's member specific predictable routine here again.

And yes, you can bet EVERY dollar you've made in your entire life on the FACT that anything I state on an internet forum, I would state to a person's face in a heart beat. No question. I put MORE stock in online discussions than those I have casually in person anyhow. MUCH more so. When's the last time you took the time to write out a conversation you were having with someone else in person? Get real.

And yes, you can bet EVERY dollar you've made in your entire life on the FACT that anything I state on an internet forum, I would state to a person's face in a heart beat. No question.

I'm afraid every dollar I've ever made - wouldn't amount to much. So if you ever do run into me in person, I can expect you to say to me that you loathe me and I'm an idiot?

 

[smcder]

I am not going to denigrate this magical thread any longer. If you have anything else to convey to me, do so in private. Yes, you already ignored a private message from me as well. I am placing those I have referred to here on my ignore list. I've had it with the predictable snob treatment and will never be sickened by it's member specific predictable routine here again.

And yes, you can bet EVERY dollar you've made in your entire life on the FACT that anything I state on an internet forum, I would state to a person's face in a heart beat. No question. I put MORE stock in online discussions than those I have casually in person anyhow. MUCH more so. When's the last time you took the time to write out a conversation you were having with someone else in person? Get real.

No, if you take all of this seriously and would say it to my face - then you can say it here on the public forum, not in a private message.

 

[nameless]