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Randi's Million Dollar Challenge


Chuckleberryfinn said:
I hope that helps. Also, forgive me for being mean. I get snotty sometimes.

...and I sometimes act in haste and repent at leisure ;)

Ankhes said:
I care about the victims. The StopSylviaBrowne website drove it further home for me. At one time I said, "so what" if people were taken in but not anymore. If people feel that way that's okay. But I can't. Maybe I'm too much of a sap but I do care when desperate and grieving people are taken in. Some may be comforted (falsely or not I cannot say) but others are just plain exploited and hurt. And when a case is high profile the "mediums" and "psychics" descend. They are not always sought. Many do descend like vultures and I find that repulsive.

I understand your concern - but really, what can you do? Vulnerable people seek reassurance (they're the church's target demographic) and if people believe in the afterlife and the abilities of the psychics to contact the 'other side', what's the best way to 'protect' those people from the 'vultures'?

Why is okay for the church to reassure the grieving?
 
Another definition of faith that I like is the desire not to know the truth.

I would like to see your source on that one...

But back to the thread...
I believe in a mix of evolution and creation. Both sides have there holes and both have their strong points in my eyes.

This is why your can't put mediums & psychics and religion in the same breath. There is a great deal of evidence that god or a being created us, but no evidence that tells me psychics exist.
 
Chuckleberryfinn said:
Randi, an intelligent man, probably has at least a basic understanding of the concept of "faith," which, by definition, equates with belief rather than proof, making such a challenge totally meaningless. No one who really understands faith, as defined best by Soren Kierkegaard, would take such a challenge seriously.

I remember a while back hearing that Randi has links to a 'humanist' society which to me at the time sounded like it was akin to a religious philosophy (maybe I was thinking about the Skeptics Society??).

Anyway, anyone who thinks dogmatically about something to the point where they use 'belief' or 'believe' in anyway ... well whats the difference between someone like Randi, and a church going christian for instance. To me they're identical.

(p.s writing this rather late-ish at night so excuse me if this comes out not quite as lucid or meaningful as intended ...)
 
kova said:
Another definition of faith that I like is the desire not to know the truth.

I would like to see your source on that one...

But back to the thread...
I believe in a mix of evolution and creation. Both sides have there holes and both have their strong points in my eyes.

This is why your can't put mediums & psychics and religion in the same breath. There is a great deal of evidence that god or a being created us, but no evidence that tells me psychics exist.

Evolution is still a relatively young field ... just over 100 years old ... so it will still have holes in it which will need filling in. I don't see a need to think that some divine being breathed life into us. Maybe our evolution has been 'tweaked' by some outside force ... but creationism is not in my mind a very valid hypothesis and is just a wee bit silly really. I think I'll agree to disagree too :D
 
I don't think that youunderstand my meaning of god... but I agree with you on that.

I just don't think evolution explains everything. There has to be a start somewhere... and that is the dilema for me.

Maybe god is the wrong word.
 
Rick Deckard said:
I understand your concern - but really, what can you do? Vulnerable people seek reassurance (they're the church's target demographic) and if people believe in the afterlife and the abilities of the psychics to contact the 'other side', what's the best way to 'protect' those people from the 'vultures'?

Why is okay for the church to reassure the grieving?

Well, maybe not too much. But I donated books and newsletters to the site and I spread the word to people I know. Several people I know have stopped pouring money (usually a lot) into psychics when they've done some research.

Churches? Good question. I don't know. I am not a gods believer and don't go to or use churches.
Do they charge people for their counseling? I really do not know. If they don't then that is one way they differ from psychic predators.
 
Ankhes said:
Churches? Good question. I don't know. I am not a gods believer and don't go to or use churches.
Do they charge people for their counseling? I really do not know. If they don't then that is one way they differ from psychic predators.

Well, all I know is that in the UK at least, the Church of England is one of the richest organisations in the country with assets greater than £6,000,000,000 GBP (six billion) - they were criticised for investing in a technology company that manufactured weaponry such as bombs and missiles.

According to wikipedia, direct donations to the Church of England (not including legacies) come to around £460 million per year...

...do these people donate hoping to buy a place in 'Heaven'?
 
Rick Deckard said:
...do these people donate hoping to buy a place in 'Heaven'?

Yes they do. I live near and have friends that work at a local monastary. Several times per year they receive donations from elderly individuals donating their entire savings/worth (many in the millions) just prior to death. I guess they think it may lube the hinges of the pearly gates.

There is a Christian publication in my area that the catholic diocese sends to many followers whether they read it or not. Their message is, "It is expensive for the diocese to distribute this paper to all Catholics and they encourage donations." I say quit sending your stupid propaganda for free and getting people to pay you out of guilt. But what do I know...obviously the strategy works.
 
Seth said:
Rick Deckard said:
...do these people donate hoping to buy a place in 'Heaven'?

Yes they do. I live near and have friends that work at a local monastary. Several times per year they receive donations from elderly individuals donating their entire savings/worth (many in the millions) just prior to death. I guess they think it may lube the hinges of the pearly gates.

There is a Christian publication in my area that the catholic diocese sends to many followers whether they read it or not. Their message is, "It is expensive for the diocese to distribute this paper to all Catholics and they encourage donations." I say quit sending your stupid propaganda for free and getting people to pay you out of guilt. But what do I know...obviously the strategy works.

I don't think you will find one person who says hey give money so the will get into heaven.
 
kova said:
I don't think you will find one person who says hey give money so the will get into heaven.

You are right, it is rude to say it directly, but it is implied. People are led to believe there is a one-to-one relationship every Sunday.
 
Hi there.

As someone who has been directly involved with Randi and the JREF Million Dollar Challenge personally allow me a moment to explain a couple of things about it.

First, it is the claimant who develops the test. Randi simply asks what they can do and how accurate they are at doing it. A test is then devised to determine whether the claimant can actually do what they say they can do. The claimant has to agree to the test in writing beforehand. So, please understand that Randi does not "make" the test. It is made jointly between the JREF and the claimant. Usually, Randi isn't even involved in the design of the test at all.

Next, Randi is NEVER present when the test is actually performed. This is to eliminate the claims of bias that others may have.

Third, there are two stages to the testing. Once someone passes the first test according to the agreed upon terms of the test and second test is done to eliminate the possibility of false positives. To date, NO ONE has had to take the second test because no one has ever passed the first test.

The biggest change to the Challenge is that it is going to be ending in March 2010, after twelve years of existence. The ending of the MDC has been controversial throughout the community, but I understand the reasons. The original goal of the challenge was to get the Sylvia Browne's, John Edward's, and James Van Praagh's of the world to be put on the spot and prove their claims. None of the "name" psychics ever agreed to be tested. The people who did agree to be tested turned out to be, and I'm sorry that I cannot think of a more politically correct way to say this, "cranks". The hardest part of the testing process was getting people to say what it is that they could do. You would think that this would be easy, but having been a part of these discussions it is amazing that people cannot clearly and concisely say what they can do.

Another issue with the MDC is that because it was "One Million Dollars" some people thought that the money did not exist, even with all of the legal documentation showing that there was one million dollars in the bank.

Now, the IIG has a $50,000 paranormal challenge that is designed in the same way as the JREF MDC. The IIG Paranormal Challenge will continue and will stay at $50,000. It is doing so because it is important for there to be a Paranormal Challenge out there and it will stay at $50,000 in order to avoid the complications that JREF had with people not believing that the money was real.

Thanks.

-Derek
 
Thanks, Derek. I am a member over at the forums there and am aware that most people have wild assumptions about the MDC and have never actually read the rules. Those issues have been addressed ad nauseum for years. I'm sorry the MDC is coming to a close, but can't see realisitically why to keep it around when it is pretty obvious no-one will ever prove to have paranormal powers. The money will be better used elsewhere.

Tho I do think Mr. Randi was present in the preliminary test with that Russian girl who claimed she could read thru a blindfold, right? Anyway, thanks for the post.
 
There are those very famous people who get a great deal of money for what they do...because they have proven themselves to those who go to see them...

However because most people don't understand that the energy that we use to read things, past, present and future, fluctuates, it is almost impossible to be able to predict what will or who will come through.

On one occasion I was asked to write down a poem, by a man who had been stuck and unable to get to his resting place, since WWI. He told me his name, Jack Chisholm. And then gave me the poem. Edit: (I eventually searched for his name in WWI records; In the whole of World War I there was only one Jack Chisholm)

I wrote it down, and placed in a folder and forgot about it. On Anzac Day this year, 2008, Jack Chisholm came back to see me. He reminded me that he had visited me and he told me it was time to put the poem out.

In the hope that young lives would not be lost. In the hope that war would not be glorified, and that young men and women would not be seduced by the calls to a war, that was a war for oil, not justice for others.

I just wrote this in here to let you know that in the area I work in, for love of others and definitely not for money, I have noticed that some people are confusing skeptcism with cynicism; and that needs to be looked at...
 
Whenever I have seen him on TV, I always think that he is going to jump up and stamp his feet like a small spoiled child. :p
 
Hi there.

As someone who has been directly involved with Randi and the JREF Million Dollar Challenge personally allow me a moment to explain a couple of things about it.

Next, Randi is NEVER present when the test is actually performed. This is to eliminate the claims of bias that others may have.
-Derek

Well, I'm pretty sure these two videos show that he has been present during the challenge:

This one is a lot of fun to watch:


Enjoy.
 
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