Questions for Dolan

[Michael Allen]

Charles Moore was a scientist who worked on Mogul and, as Dolan says, was "brought in as a key witness" for the USAF "The Roswell Report: Fact vs. Fiction in the New Mexico Desert." According to Dolan, Charles Moore was also an observer during the April 24, 1949 UFO sighting—and he actually launched the balloon prior to a rather vivid display: an "elliptical object" appeared and was tracked via theodolite by the observers (including Moore). This object had a calculated velocity exceeding 25,000 miles per hour.

Now I started thinking about all of the numerous balloon launches throughout the late 40s and 50s. I am wondering if SOME of these "weather" balloon projects were really designed for weather, or simply thrown up into the air in order to allow the USAF to continue its "educational debunking campaign"—i.e. a device generating a ready-made plausible alternative to other uncomfortable hypotheses concerning the reports.

I looked at a few cases in the Project Blue Book archives and was astonished at how many "balloon centers" the telephone operators at Wright-Patterson had to call in order to find launch data that "fit" the situation. And while I believe these "balloon" research centers actually had a legitimate purpose (besides adding confusion to the UFO sightings) , I wonder if we can find some evidence of excessive "balloon research" via excess in funding, scheduling, staff development, etc.

I suppose we'd first have to figure out what constitutes a norm...

.

 

[Kieran]

Charles Moore was a scientist who worked on Mogul and, as Dolan says, was "brought in as a key witness" for the USAF "The Roswell Report: Fact vs. Fiction in the New Mexico Desert." According to Dolan, Charles Moore was also an observer during the April 24, 1949 UFO sighting—and he actually launched the balloon prior to a rather vivid display: an "elliptical object" appeared and was tracked via theodolite by the observers (including Moore). This object had a calculated velocity exceeding 25,000 miles per hour.

Now I started thinking about all of the numerous balloon launches throughout the late 40s and 50s. I am wondering if these "weather" balloon projects were really designed for weather, or simply thrown up into the air in order to allow the USAF to continue its "educational debunking campaign"—i.e. a device generating a ready-made plausible alternative to other uncomfortable hypotheses concerning the reports.

I looked at a few cases in the Project Blue Book archives and was astonished at how many "balloon centers" the telephone operators at Wright-Patterson had to call in order to find launch data that "fit" the situation. And while I believe these "balloon" research centers actually had a legitimate purpose (besides adding confusion to the UFO sightings) , I wonder if we can find some evidence of excessive "balloon research" via excess in funding, scheduling, staff development, etc.

I suppose we'd first have to figure out what constitutes a norm...

.

I don't believe that is the case Michael. All the Balloon story is, was a cover story for what happened at Roswell. Probably because they could not think of anything else in such a short space of time, when this events unfolded and were revealed to the public. It amazes me, that they only Air-force base in the world at the time, that handled Nuclear weapons sorties. Highly trained and educated officers like Jesse Marcel Snr, somehow, could not tell the difference between a object that was made of light material and wood from something, that was never seen before, or since !!

Jesse Marcel senior revelations should given more by respect by Skeptic's, Especially, and i think they should think logically about the time and place and people involved here!!! Skeptics do have to ask themselves this.

What would Jesse Marcel Snr Gain from telling such a story? and do Skeptics honestly believe a man, that was in the past, an intelligence officer for one of the most secure bases on the planet, and who had trained with Radar Equipment. Could not tell the difference. Between a balloon, which he would see fairly often in his course of going about his work. And something that would be from another planet or place? If Jesse Marcel Snr did not have clue what it was back then, or later before he died. It is safe to assume what came down was probably something belong to someone else, mostly likely it was not our technology!!

 

[Michael Allen]

Hilarious. You might ask the meteorologists who used (and still use) the balloons as a real world (if you can imagine such a thing!) instrument for studying the weather. But maybe they are in on the conspiracy as well!

Hey, maybe airplanes were also designed as an "educational debunking campaign"!



Sure...they should have called one and, if it wasn't the right one, marked that case down as "FLYING SAUCER FROM OUTER SPACE"

There must have been an awful lot of thinking that went into the above post!

Lance

What do you know about the Project Blue Book cases involving calls to balloon centers?

Blue Book Archive

Here's some homework, should you choose to accept it--go look at some of these

Project Blue Book Archive

Project Blue Book Archive

Project Blue Book Archive

Project Blue Book Archive

Project Blue Book Archive


Now try to explain how a high-altitude (or venus) balloon makes a "transforming humming sound"

Smart ass Air Force response:

Project Blue Book Archive

 

[Michael Allen]

Firstly a clarification:

The creation of the weather balloons solely to the purpose mentioned is an obvious exaggeration and you are right to point it out as "insane"--I should've asked the question differently. However, this does not preclude an opportunistic synergy between the launches and BB staff trying to explain away every sighting.

 

[Keiko]

As you may know Marcel was photographed with balloon debris and the resulting images were published on the front page of the Roswelll newspaper (and nationwide). Every Roswell researcher alive agrees that the debris pictured is just crappy pieces of balloons and radar targets, etc. In other words NOT A FLYING SAUCER.

Yet Marcel TWICE said later that the debris he is pictured with is the same stuff he picked up on the ranch.

Later, when someone gently explained to him that this testimony was ruining their Roswell religion, he THEN claimed that he forgot what was in the photos and of course the pictured stuff was not the real debris.

However you read this, it means that Marcel changed his story to say that he forgot about the content of pictures he appeared in on the front page of his home newspaper which is reasonable only if you REALLY REALLY want it to be.

Lance could you please let me know the source of this information. I am certainly not an expert on Roswell but have met Jesse Marcel Jr and discussed his father coming home that night and the subsequent events. If I can get a reference for this I will contact him and ask him his thoughts on it. Thanks.

---------- Post added at 06:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:27 PM ----------

Firstly a clarification:

The creation of the weather balloons solely to the purpose mentioned is an obvious exaggeration and you are right to point it out as "insane"--I should've asked the question differently. However, this does not preclude an opportunistic synergy between the launches and BB staff trying to explain away every sighting.

I think it's possibly an interesting angle. It may not come to much but I don't dismiss it out of hand. Could you explain how this may possibly have been managed? Reports of a UFO come in and so the order is given to launch balloons in order to deflect fears and investigations? This sounds a bit like the Phoneix lights incident which seemed to have a genuine anomolous object and then flares put out later, probably as damage control.

 

[Michael Allen]

Keiko,

Probably more subtle...just throwing this out: perhaps just an increase in funding/scheduling, etc. How many balloons does it take to survey the atmosphere? Etc.
But that's really the purpose of the question--to get Dolan to add insight (or perhaps shoot down) to the question. It was a question I've been meaning to ask for a long time...particularly considering the (weird) Charles Moore connection.

 

[Kieran]

Hi,

Certainly Karl Pflock's book covers it. Kevin Randle and I have discussed it several times on his blog:

A Different Perspective

I can't at the moment find the exact entry for it but that is the best place to find all Roswell info.

The connection between the photos being on the front page of the paper and the unlikeliness of someone forgetting such a thing is a recent argument and my own idea, as far as I know.

Lance

What did Karl say in his Book? I hope, for your sake, and the security of your argument here. That Karl was quoting things from "Personal Experience" having spent some time with Marcel, other than just quoting from the work of Bill Moore/Charles Berlitz and their published Roswell book?

I've taken some time in the past, to research Roswell "Lance, and i do agree with you, what was pictured in both photographs was certainly Balloon wreckage. I'm not aware of anyone who disputes that?

I would dispute your assertion, however, that former now deceased Major Jesse Marcel, said what you claim to me, he said. "That Marcel said what was pictured in those photographs, is what i found out at the ranch in 1947"

The burden is on you to prove your posting is correct? I will listen wholeheartedly, and I'm, not a die-hard believer in the Roswell saucer story that i would not listen carefully to new evidence, that would be presented by you, or by anyone else. So lay out the evidence, you do have for us? For example "who? were the people that heard him say this beside what Bill Moore claimed.. Then we can move along, and discuss the credibility of the person who is alleging Marcel said that!!

There is no Audio of him saying this, so all we have, that i am aware of is, information that came from suspicious characters involved in the UFO world (Bill Moore)

You believe the Official version is the correct one. The said in 1994 the Air Force said they were being untruthful to the Public, and was crashed at Roswell was actually Mogul. So was Mogul pictured in those two Photos,.. Lance?

'You also forget, the Roswell Base Army misidentified this object initially!! They!!! Not the public identified this object as a Flying saucer. SO you can not blame the public for starting this legend, and creating the Roswell Hysteria that came upon us in the 70's. Blame the US Military and US Officialdom, if you want to blame someone!!

'Marcel was no Joe-soap of the street. He was head intelligence officer at the Roswell Air Field in 1947. His credentials are top-notch lance, and you expect me to believe, he knew all along, before he died, that the Photograph's showed the real wreckage of Roswell?

He would not have been so vocal in later years before his death, if he truly believed, what he found was Balloon Wreckage 'lance
His son must be falsifying memories too, if i was, to believe you. He said when he was around Twelve i believe, his Dad Brought some of this wreckage to the House and Jesse Marcel Jr Today on Record claims, what he saw, was not balloon wreckage. So who are we to believe the Government who have lied to us twice now in 1947 and 1994, or some of the more reliable witnesses like the Marcel's both Father and son. I will end my posting here. Be prepared to back up your shit Lance, because you have made the claim not me.

 

[Keiko]

Hi,

Certainly Karl Pflock's book covers it. Kevin Randle and I have discussed it several times on his blog:

A Different Perspective

I can't at the moment find the exact entry for it but that is the best place to find all Roswell info.

The connection between the photos being on the front page of the paper and the unlikeliness of someone forgetting such a thing is a recent argument and my own idea, as far as I know.

Lance

Hi Lance, I have spent the last 40 mins or so reading through the blog link you sent me but I haven't yet found the reference to Marcel changing his story as you described. Can you please give me the title of the blog so it can narrow down the search for me. I have not had a chance to research Karl Pflock but will do. Perhaps you could get an excerpt/reference for me if at your convenience. Thanks.

 

[Kieran]

LOL! 40 Minutes, huh? It took me about 3 to find the entry called : "The Roswell UFO and Jesse Marcel" It was on about the third or fourth page of Kevin's archive.

I love that you dispute what I said without really looking into it. What I say is not new and it is not disputed by anyone who knows what they are talking about, including the prominent Roswell supporters. But since you imply that I need to "back up my shit" as opposed to you doing any research, let me hold your hand a bit (since the burden is on me and all).

Here is Kevin Randle's discussion of the topic:

A Different Perspective: The Roswell UFO and Jesse Marcel

You are aware of who Kevin Rande is, I trust?

As you will note, Kevin gives you al the details just I did. He rationalizes the change of story by Marcel in his own way but the facts as I gave them are exactly the same.

Is that enough of a backing-up for ya?

Lance

What you on about Lance? 40 minutes?. I am asking you. Is Bill Moore the only person who made such a claim? I do my own Research. Does Kevin Randle believe Bill Moore ,if he does, i believe he is wrong to do so. So i ask you once more. Who other than Bill Moore have we to verify those claims?

 

[Ron Collins]

LOL! 40 Minutes, huh? It took me about 3 to find the entry called : "The Roswell UFO and Jesse Marcel" It was on about the third or fourth page of Kevin's archive.

I love that you dispute what I said without really looking into it. What I say is not new and it is not disputed by anyone who knows what they are talking about, including the prominent Roswell supporters. But since you imply that I need to "back up my shit" as opposed to you doing any research, let me hold your hand a bit (since the burden is on me and all).

Here is Kevin Randle's discussion of the topic:

A Different Perspective: The Roswell UFO and Jesse Marcel

You are aware of who Kevin Rande is, I trust?

As you will note, Kevin gives you al the details just I did. He rationalizes the change of story by Marcel in his own way but the facts as I gave them are exactly the same.

Is that enough of a backing-up for ya?

Lance

I think your tone on this is uncalled for. I didn't see any kind of "dispute" whatsoever. Keiko was polite in both posts and explained the situation and asked for a reference to the blog. That shouldn't warrant this type of response. Take a deep breathe and settle down a bit.

 

[Kieran]

Kieran hilariously said:


He told it to Bill Moore and then (sadly for your credibility as a top notch researcher--you really couldn't click the link and read Kevin's entry?) he then AGAIN said it on video tape for Stan Friedman. ON VIDEO TAPE.

Waiting for your rationalization of that and how your earlier comments were not totally wrong but VERY VERY right!

Lance

Ok lance i admit your backing up your shit. Where is this documentary that Stanton done with Marcel. a link to it. There is many reasons to disbelieve Bill Moore!!! but if Marcel is on Record through video saying this to Stanton. I like to see it.

 

[Ron Collins]

Ok lance i admit your backing up your shit. Where is this documentary that Stanton done with Marcel. a link to it. There is many reasons to disbelieve Bill Moore!!! but if Marcel is on Record through video saying this to Stanton. I like to see it.

BTW, Stanton has been called out on this in the past. I remember one specific time after one of his lectures in Colorado. Specifically about the claim that Marcel was a pilot and an ace. Friedman talked around it for a bit completely unsatisfactorily in my opinion. IF my memory serves he said that Marcel liked to fib a bit to keep you on your toes. In fact it was that question and his fumbling of a response that initially set off the alarm bells for me concerning Roswell. Here is another good article on this subject. Jesse Marcel - The Evolution of a Roswell Witness

 

[Kieran]

Thanks Kieran!

As you might imagine, believers like Stan Friedman don't exactly play this huge problem up so the video tape doesn't appear in most UFO documentaries. It's all a religion, of course and since this is heresy, it remains mostly unknown except by researchers.

The stuff I wrote earlier about the fact that the photos appeared on the front page of the paper in Marcel's home town (this making the idea that he forgot about them--perhaps his greatest embarrassment in life--extremely unlikely) was apparently not even earlier considered until I brought it up.

Lance

I have a real problem with how Kevin responded to you in that Blog of his!!! and I READ IT TWICE! . I'm going to try to find that documentary on the web. Honestly You brought up a good point to Kevin. And He coped out, and made up excuses, basically he could not answer what you asked of him!!... Marcel if he truly said on Camera the real debris from the crash was shown in one of the photos, this is a smoking gun comment and would bring the credibility of Roswell researchers into question. Sad day For Ufology

This has to be addressed not swept under the Carpet.

 

[Kieran]

And see, now I feel every bit the bastard I am for being so sarcastic to you earlier!

Hug?

Lance

No Lance you have proven your point. Full marks. I'm amazed this has never been talked about before. The Photo with Marcel pictured in it is Balloon material!! So what gives? why would researchers believe otherwise, if Marcel himself said, that is the debris from the ranch. I'm with you 100% on this. This is the Photo, that is not Alien material!!

 

[Keiko]

Lance, thanks for the link. I read the article and got half way through the comments but had to call it a day - it's past my bedtime But before I retire...here are some initial thoughts...

Yes it is a bit strange that Marcell would say this. However, there could be a reason for it - tired, old age, repetitive questions from Stan and/or if you consider that he could have been ordered to lie for years or keep quiet etc then it may be a case of momentary confusion. I'm not saying this explains it but to me it's also plausible. It seems Kevin Randle found a quote from him that contradicted the statement when he was shown the actual photo, so that's another thing to consider.

I haven't given the Roswell incident any serious research so I really couldn't begin to weigh in on the finer details of the debate. However, as I mentioned before, I met and had lunch with Jesse Jr and his wife Linda who are very lovely people. He described to me the night his father came in and woke them up. He had some shiny tinfoil like material and some other item with symbols on it. He was convinced at that time it was nothing of 'ours' (human). Jesse later told me about his invite to the Pentagon where he spoke to a Senator (?) who confirmed to him that Jesse's father was correct in what he claimed about Roswell. I am not presenting this anecdote (I believe it is discussed by Jesse Jr in his book) as evidence or trying to convince you of anything. But Jesse seems absolutely genuine to me. 100%. He had just come back from fighting in Iraq or some such place and he was at that time in his late sixties.

What conclusions do you draw from this contradiction in Marcels testimony? Do you believe Jesse Marcel was a liar/attention seeker/hoaxer/other? What about his son's claim that his father came in that night with debris so excited he woke his sleeping son up to share in the 'historic moment'? I'd appreciate your thoughts on this. It seems as it so often does that much of what we conclude is down to who we believe as an individual/group...Project Bluebook v these guys Marcel v the Airforce..the list goes on and on...

Keiko

 

[Kieran]

You will be amazed by the Will to Believe...prepare to see it in action.

Lance

Kevin Randle in his owns words, does indeed admit your correct Lance. So your not lying Lance to me, or anyone else for that matter. We can make excuses for Marcel, but he made this comment.

 

[Kieran]

Lance, thanks for the link. I read the article and got half way through the comments but had to call it a day - it's past my bedtime But before I retire...here are some initial thoughts...

Yes it is a bit strange that Marcell would say this. However, there could be a reason for it - tired, old age, repetitive questions from Stan and/or if you consider that he could have been ordered to lie for years or keep quiet etc then it may be a case of momentary confusion. I'm not saying this explains it but to me it's also plausible. It seems Kevin Randle found a quote from him that contradicted the statement when he was shown the actual photo, so that's another thing to consider.

I haven't given the Roswell incident any serious research so I really couldn't begin to weigh in on the finer details of the debate. However, as I mentioned before, I met and had lunch with Jesse Jr and his wife Linda who are very lovely people. He described to me the night his father came in and woke them up. He had some shiny tinfoil like material and some other item with symbols on it. He was convinced at that time it was nothing of 'ours' (human). Jesse later told me about his invite to the Pentagon where he spoke to a Senator (?) who confirmed to him that Jesse's father was correct in what he claimed about Roswell. I am not presenting this anecdote (I believe it is discussed by Jesse Jr in his book) as evidence or trying to convince you of anything. But Jesse seems absolutely genuine to me. 100%. He had just come back from fighting in Iraq or some such place and he was at that time in his late sixties.

What conclusions do you draw from this contradiction in Marcels testimony? Do you believe Jesse Marcel was a liar/attention seeker/hoaxer/other? What about his son's claim that his father came in that night with debris so excited he woke his sleeping son up to share in the 'historic moment'? I'd appreciate your thoughts on this. It seems as it so often does that much of what we conclude is down to who we believe as an individual/group...Project Bluebook v these guys Marcel v the Airforce..the list goes on and on...

Keiko

Shiny material and Symbols. I saw a documentary were it showed Mogul Balloons with geometric shapes around the edges. I believe the colour of the shapes was purple. The material was shiny silver as i remember. Maybe Marcel was pictured with Mogul? and the other photos was of an ordinary balloon. But none of those Photos contain Alien material.

 

[Ron Collins]

Shiny material and Symbols. I saw a documentary were it showed Mogul Balloons with geometric shapes around the edges. I believe the colour of the shapes was purple. The material was shiny silver as i remember. Maybe Marcel was pictured with Mogul? and the other photos was of an ordinary balloon. But none of those Photos contain Alien material.

it has been said that a tape was purchased from a toy making company and that this tape had purple symbols on it. To the best of my knowledge nobody has ever been able to conclusively prove this or provide an example of the tape in question. They can not even identify the company they supposedly purchased the tape from. Marcel Jr.'s daughter has done some intensive searching for such tape and has come up empty handed. Or at least this is my recollection.

---------- Post added at 07:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:55 PM ----------

Here is the rub though, and let me be clear I think the Roswell case is the biggest black hole in Ufology, Even if Jesse Marcel Sr. had mis-interpreted this material (rubber ballon pieces, balsa wood struts, toy tape, and foil with paper backing) it passed through the hands of several others spawning at least 1 and possibly 2 unscheduled flights to Dallas. It should be obvious that Marcel didn't decide to contact higher authorities in Dallas or Wright Field himself but that he brought it to his superiors, they viewed the material and decided it was significant enough to move it up the chain, schedule a flight, and release a press statement. I find it impossible to believe that the Army decided to populate the only Nuclear Bomb Wing in the world with so many morons that between them they couldn't recognize rubber, balsa wood, tape, and foil.

I have no idea what was found and we will never know for sure. That much is certain. But to make Marcel and his faulty testimony the causation enough for tossing the story out is disingenuous. Although the book Witness to Roswell has flaws some of the best work is in the timeline reconstruction. Specifically, Gen. Ramey issuing statements to the press that it was a weather ballon before the plane with Marcel and the debris landed. The guy hadn't even seen the material yet. Even to the most ardent of skeptics, this has to bother you.

 

[Michael Allen]

Simple enough question, if the balloon explanation is correct, why fly it (along with Marcel) to Ft Worth?

But to make Marcel and his faulty testimony the causation enough for tossing the story out is disingenuous.

Agreed--for what its worth (probably not much to most) I have also called Lance out for being disingenuous.

At least one or two of the designs were a reasonable match for the 50 year old memories of the stuff.

Assumes that you know how to match someone else's memories to descriptions--presumably you wouldn't be in the position to find positive results for such a test.

 

[Ron Collins]

It might if I was not aware of how a telephone works. I can somehow imagine someone in Roswell calling Ramey and saying that, in the cold light of day, they were pretty sure that the stuff was balloon garbage. Ramey still needed to diffuse what had become a national press story.

I am too tired of Roswell to debate you on this. We will just have to disagree. I think the full timeline speaks for itself. Something odd happened. OK, I am officially done with Roswell junk... again.