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No Disk At Roswell

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Hoffmeister

Hoffmeister

There is no spoon
Hi All

Now its not my intention to start another full blown Roswell debate, but there has been something that bothers me about the case for a long time now.
Roswell is famed for being the most famous of the crashed disk/saucers, but the ridiculous thing is, that nobody as far as I am aware ever even saw a disk.
Now my research has been mostly internet based so i might have things wrong, but not a single person ever saw a 'disk shaped object', at the very most all they saw was broken bits of metal scattered over a mile or so radius.

The first reference I could find of anyone even calling it a disk is Mac Brazzel who went to see a local reporter before reporting it to the airforce. He told the reporter something to the effect of 'it could be one of those disk things'. It seems to me he then went running to the airforce saying it was a disk, which in my opinion would have helped to plant the thought in Jesse Marcel Snr's mind.

How do we know the object wasnt originally triangular? And in fact how do we know the shape of it at all, and therefore how can we label it an alien craft.

The main witness in the case Jesse Marcel never saw a disk, merely witnessed some strange metal and had already been told by a rancher beforehand that it was an alien craft.

Now i'm not being funny here but I don't think that would stand up in a court of law?

What does everyone else think?
 
I dont think it really matters. Honestly.

Whether it was circular, triangular or dodecahedronalur -- the issue is whether or not it was an object that was not a typical aerodynamic craft bound to the laws of physics as we know them (or think we know them).

And no one with credibility labels it as "alien". "Anomalous" seems more appropriate.
 
Gareth said:
And no one with credibility labels it as "alien". "Anomalous" seems more appropriate.
Click to expand...

Agreed, but surely a field full of anomalous material is far less interesting than what the UFO proponents would suggest. Not only was there no disk, but there was also no engine or bodies (atleast that the best witness Jesse Marcel could tell).

Now imagine that Kenneth Arnold hadnt seen the disks a few weeks before, and Mac Brazzel hadnt suggested anything about Disks. All we have left is a field full of scrap anomalous material. Surely then the most likely source of this material would be a government (US or foreign) experiment/test item of some sort. There isnt a single piece of good evidence that actually points to extra-terrestrial that I can see.

Just my thoughts ofcourse, we'll never know for sure
 
Completely agree. I would totally drop the whole ET thing.

Theres a bunch of anecodotal evidence of strangeness (that we all know so well) and you just have to make up your own mind whether or not you think the totality of that evidence points to something anomalous or not.

Govt. secret craft? Still anomalous and very interesting. The strongest of the anecdotes (IMO) is the testimony from the Marcel's regarding the material itself. And there is a continuum all the way down to people claiming to see bodies (maybe some wouldn't put the bodies at the end of that continuum - for me they're way down there).

I think when you add it all up there seems to be a case for something strange. But for me personally, ideas such as "it was probably ET" and "it was probably a disc" are just not things that I can hold onto and get attached to.

I know you don't (Hoff), but a lot of people do. But a lot of people in this subject hold onto many a wacky idea. Unfortunately the belief (with no proof) that Roswell was a) a disk and b) Extraterrestrial is no where near the wackiest of those beliefs:D
 
Endoskeleton said:
Have you guys seen this? There's an interview with the KFGL radio guy near 5 mins.

Click to expand...

To be honest i've never heard that account before. Still I don't think you can hang the whole ETH Roswell theory on this guy, or any of these people who popped up 50 years later saying it was Alien.
For starters how comes Jesse Marcel didnt see any bodies? He was the first on the scene. How comes this reporter didnt pipe up at the time when the military changed its story? As a reporter it would have made a pretty big scoop but he just kept quiet?

The only people who I think whose testimony can even be remotely trusted after alll the frauds that have arisen is the Marcels, and I believe they were affected by the power of suggestion.

But as always, who knows...
 
(10) At approximately 9:30 a.m. Col. Blanchard phoned my office and dictated the press release of having in our possession a flying disc, coming from a ranch Northwest of Roswell, and Marcel flying the material to higher headquarters. I was to deliver the news release to radio stations KGFL and KSWS, and newspapers the Daily Record and the Morning Dispatch.

(11) By the time the news release hit the wire services, my office was inundated with phone calls from around the world. Messages stacked up on my desk, and rather than deal with the media concern, Col Blanchard suggested that I go home and "hide out."

(12) Before leaving the base, Col. Blanchard took me personally to Building 84 [AKA Hangar P-3], a B-29 hangar located on the east side of the tarmac. Upon first approaching the building, I observed that it was under heavy guard both outside and inside. Once inside, I was permitted from a safe distance to first observe the object just recovered north of town. It was approx. 12 to 15 feet in length, not quite as wide, about 6 feet high, and more of an egg shape. Lighting was poor, but its surface did appear metallic. No windows, port holes, wings, tail section, or landing gear were visible.

(13) Also from a distance, I was able to see a couple of bodies under a canvas tarpaulin. Only the heads extended beyond the covering, and I was not able to make out any features. The heads did appear larger than normal and the contour of the canvas suggested the size of a 10 year old child. At a later date in Blanchard's office, he would extend his arm about 4 feet above the floor to indicate the height.

(14) I was informed of a temporary morgue set up to accommodate the recovered bodies.

(15) I was informed that the wreckage was not "hot" (radioactive).

(16) Upon his return from Fort Worth, Major Marcel described to me taking pieces of the wreckage to Gen. Ramey's office and after returning from a map room, finding the remains of a weather balloon and radar kite substituted while he was out of the room. Marcel was very upset over this situation. We would not discuss it again.
Click to expand...


From Walter Haut's affidavit
 
There's any number of people saying similar things but it doesnt mean they are credible. Wasnt there a paracast episode that pretty much damned the whole affidavit thing anyway as they were trying to make money from it or something. My memory is sketchy on it but I do remember an episode about it.

Like I say, for all I know it could be a UFO, i'm just saying the only real solid witness is the Marcels, and they didnt mention anything about disk shaped objects, bodies or anything similar to whats in the affadavit.
If the affadavit is real, then surely the Marcels accounts must be false as they are so different?
 
Maybe Marcel didn't want to mention them. Scared? Who knows? The affidavit came out in 2007. It was made by Haut in 2002 to be released only after Haut died.

How is Walter Haut not a solid witness?


DATE: December 26, 2002
WITNESS: Chris Xxxxxx
NOTARY: Beverlee Morgan

(1) My name is Walter G. Haut

(2) I was born on June 2, 1922

(3) My address is 1405 W. 7th Street, Roswell, NM 88203

(4) I am retired.

(5) In July, 1947, I was stationed at the Roswell Army Air Base in Roswell, New Mexico, serving as the base Public Information Officer. I had spent the 4th of July weekend (Saturday, the 5th, and Sunday, the 6th) at my private residence about 10 miles north of the base, which was located south of town.

(6) I was aware that someone had reported the remains of a downed vehicle by midmorning after my return to duty at the base on Monday, July 7. I was aware that Major Jesse A. Marcel, head of intelligence, was sent by the base commander, Col. William Blanchard, to investigate.

(7) By late in the afternoon that same day, I would learn that additional civilian reports came in regarding a second site just north of Roswell. I would spend the better part of the day attending to my regular duties hearing little if anything more.

(8) On Tuesday morning, July 8, I would attend the regularly scheduled staff meeting at 7:30 a.m. Besides Blanchard, Marcel; CIC [Counterintelligence Corp] Capt. Sheridan Cavitt; Col. James I. Hopkins, the operations officer; Lt. Col. Ulysses S. Nero, the supply officer; and from Carswell AAF in Fort Worth, Texas, Blanchard's boss, Brig. Gen. Roger Ramey and his chief of staff, Col. Thomas J. Dubose were also in attendance. The main topic of discussion was reported by Marcel and Cavitt regarding an extensive debris field in Lincoln County approx. 75 miles NW of Roswell. A preliminary briefing was provided by Blanchard about the second site approx. 40 miles north of town. Samples of wreckage were passed around the table. It was unlike any material I had or have ever seen in my life. Pieces which resembled metal foil, paper thin yet extremely strong, and pieces with unusual markings along their length were handled from man to man, each voicing their opinion. No one was able to identify the crash debris.

(9) One of the main concerns discussed at the meeting was whether we should go public or not with the discovery. Gen. Ramey proposed a plan, which I believe originated from his bosses at the Pentagon. Attention needed to be diverted from the more important site north of town by acknowledging the other location. Too many civilians were already involved and the press already was informed. I was not completely informed how this would be accomplished.

(10) At approximately 9:30 a.m. Col. Blanchard phoned my office and dictated the press release of having in our possession a flying disc, coming from a ranch northwest of Roswell, and Marcel flying the material to higher headquarters. I was to deliver the news release to radio stations KGFL and KSWS, and newspapers the Daily Record and the Morning Dispatch.

(11) By the time the news release hit the wire services, my office was inundated with phone calls from around the world. Messages stacked up on my desk, and rather than deal with the media concern, Col Blanchard suggested that I go home and "hide out."

(12) Before leaving the base, Col. Blanchard took me personally to Building 84 [AKA Hangar P-3], a B-29 hangar located on the east side of the tarmac. Upon first approaching the building, I observed that it was under heavy guard both outside and inside. Once inside, I was permitted from a safe distance to first observe the object just recovered north of town. It was approx. 12 to 15 feet in length, not quite as wide, about 6 feet high, and more of an egg shape. Lighting was poor, but its surface did appear metallic. No windows, portholes, wings, tail section, or landing gear were visible.

(13) Also from a distance, I was able to see a couple of bodies under a canvas tarpaulin. Only the heads extended beyond the covering, and I was not able to make out any features. The heads did appear larger than normal and the contour of the canvas suggested the size of a 10 year old child. At a later date in Blanchard's office, he would extend his arm about 4 feet above the floor to indicate the height.

(14) I was informed of a temporary morgue set up to accommodate the recovered bodies.

(15) I was informed that the wreckage was not "hot" (radioactive).

(16) Upon his return from Fort Worth, Major Marcel described to me taking pieces of the wreckage to Gen. Ramey's office and after returning from a map room, finding the remains of a weather balloon and radar kite substituted while he was out of the room. Marcel was very upset over this situation. We would not discuss it again.

(17) I would be allowed to make at least one visit to one of the recovery sites during the military cleanup. I would return to the base with some of the wreckage which I would display in my office.

(18) I was aware two separate teams would return to each site months later for periodic searches for any remaining evidence.

(19) I am convinced that what I personally observed was some type of craft and its crew from outer space.

(20) I have not been paid nor given anything of value to make this statement, and it is the truth to the best of my recollection.


Signed: Walter G. Haut
December 26, 2002

Signature witnessed by:
Chris Xxxxxxx
Click to expand...
 
Endoskeleton, Hoffmeister is right on about this one. I believe what was called into question was the true authorship of the affidavit. For a number of years before his death, Haut suffered from severe memory problems. While it may be that Haut did see something, by the time the affadavit was prepared (perhaps by Don Schmitt), Haut may not had the mental faculties to know if he was signing a true representation of things he had witnessed.
My own memory may be a bit fuzzy on this one, so if I don't have this quite right, I am sure the other forum members will let me know! :D
 
Agreed. And I think there was also something to do with the fact that either the family of walter, or the people who made claim to the affidavit are some rather unsavoury characters who have been trying to grab as much money as they can whilst trying to shut out all other researchers.

Either way, it seems a big leap from terrestrial to extra terrestrial based upon these claims.
 
Didn't he do one in 1993 also? It was more or less the same but without the mention of bodies. There was also the Roswell fireman that said it was a flying saucer. I think Kevin Randle interviewed him but yeah, who knows....
 
I can't get excited about this at all. A simple google search brings up the fact that Haut flipflopped a number of times about Roswell and denied any involvement in the 1993 affidavit. By 2000, it becomes clear in an interview that he is suffering dementia.
You felt this was a compelling piece of evidence, and I can respect that. But I think a lot of forum members here understand that compelling and verifiable/factual often do not go hand in hand when it comes to UFOs. I think after the reading I have done, that it is pretty clear that affidavit is questionable at best.

Here are a couple of articles that call the affidavit into question:
http://kevinrandle.blogspot.com/2007/12/walter-hauts-affidavit.html

http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/view/35683

http://www.ufodigest.com/news/1007/walterhaut.html
 
Maybe it's just me, but the deeper I got into the Roswell mythos over the years, the more I got the feeling that what I'd walked into wasn't a "saucer crash" of any sort, but a government-sponsored head-game of ever-growing proportions.
 
Hermes said:
Maybe it's just me, but the deeper I got into the Roswell mythos over the years, the more I got the feeling that what I'd walked into wasn't a "saucer crash" of any sort, but a government-sponsored head-game of ever-growing proportions.
Click to expand...

I agree with you there.

I think most reasonable people believe that something happened. Just WHAT that was, is a different story.

The main question that springs to my mind is this: What type of event required the government to give several completely different versions of what actually transpired?
 
Xylo said:
I agree with you there.

I think most reasonable people believe that something happened. Just WHAT that was, is a different story.

The main question that springs to my mind is this: What type of event required the government to give several completely different versions of what actually transpired?
Click to expand...
If the government has something to hide, there could be different interpretations of the reasons, not to mention imperfect communication and handling of the situation. That would explain confusing and contradictory answers.

But remember, too, that secrecy and misdirection doesn't necessarily mean Roswell was caused by ET. It could have been a secret weapon (ours or someone else's), both of which would have also brought intelligence efforts to bear.
 
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