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No Disk At Roswell

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For starters how comes Jesse Marcel didnt see any bodies?

Marcel was at the debris field, not the impact site AKA the second site c 40 miles north of Roswell, where a somewhat intact craft and bodies were allegedly seen. But according to one or two people who knew Marcel, he did mention bodies, which he referred to as "rubbery figures." (That may not be reliable however.) As for the shape of the craft, there was obviously no intact craft at the ranch site, and the vessel recovered north of town had either a batwing configuration or was egg shaped. Not all UFOs are discs.
 
Marcel was at the debris field, not the impact site AKA the second site c 40 miles north of Roswell, where a somewhat intact craft and bodies were allegedly seen. But according to one or two people who knew Marcel, he did mention bodies, which he referred to as "rubbery figures." (That may not be reliable however.) As for the shape of the craft, there was obviously no intact craft at the ranch site, and the vessel recovered north of town had either a batwing configuration or was egg shaped. Not all UFOs are discs.

But as far as I can tell, there's no reliable evidence for this other crash site. If the government said it would reopen the investigation on UFO's if we could prove in a court of law that an E.T. craft crashed at Roswell, the UFO guys wouldnt really have a leg to stand on IMO as there is no real evidence. It amazes me that people don't get more excited about decent cases like the RB47 case or better still the Belgian UFO chase.

I personally agree with James Carrion on the Roswell case. I think the country was in a UFO flap, and they decided to play mind games with the Russians, perhaps in an effort to route out spies. Get a load of wierd metal, dump it in a field, change your story a couple of times and its job done
 
But as far as I can tell, there's no reliable evidence for this other crash site.

The military (MP) testimony pertaining to it may be as reliable as Marcel's for the other site.


It amazes me that people don't get more excited about decent cases like the RB47 case or better still the Belgian UFO chase.

They're fine but the crash of an alien vessel is much more exciting to most people.

I personally agree with James Carrion on the Roswell case. I think the country was in a UFO flap, and they decided to play mind games with the Russians, perhaps in an effort to route out spies. Get a load of wierd metal, dump it in a field, change your story a couple of times and its job done

Doesn't seem plausible. What witnesses or informants ever claimed that, or presented evidence? You'd think that, by now, somebody would've come forward, or, this many years after we won the cold war, it would've been OK to show proof of this. I don't think Marcel would've been fooled by metal junk, not any more than he would've been fooled by balloon junk. The reported properties were too unusual.
 
Yeah there's not really any evidence to support my theory either, I just think makes sense thats all. There's any number of things it could have been
 
Yeah there's not really any evidence to support my theory either, I just think makes sense thats all. There's any number of things it could have been

In fact, as Randle's research indicates, no prosaic explanation fits--not MOGUL, a balloon bomb, a V missile etc. Citing documentation, he ruled them all out. That doesn't leave much left, but ET.:)
 
What if the Roswell incident wasn't about a crashed flying disc from ET, a human made weatherballoon, Japanese balloon, or disinfo against the Soviets.

There could be another explanation: ''cryptoterrestrials'', in a recent interview Binnall did with Walter Bosley the ''cryptoterrestrial'' origin for the Roswell crash got mentioned. Now I'm not saying that there's a lot of evidence for this, but I think it's interesting to think about.

If the earth based origin for the crash is true and also at the same time non-human i.e. alien in the true sense of the word, than that would be ironic IMO.
 
Now I'm not saying that the there's a lot of evidence for this

If any.:)

If the earth based origin for the crash is true and also at the same time non-human

The Roswell craft and bodies were physical, so any "cryptoterrestrials" must be from a civilization hidden underground. How odd that such a advanced system chooses to hide from an inferior civilization when it could, presumably, dominate it, or even have preempted it. It's also strange that a race which is mostly hidden, probably underground, or beneath the sea, has developed such outstanding flying machines, and in such numbers....
 
Trajanus you are right when you state that the idea of ''cryptoterrestrials'' has it's flaws. And I'm looking forward to the publication of Mac Tonnies last book.

The division between it must have been ET and it could only have been of human origin will look stupid if it was neither. I meant to outline the situation that if both sides of the debate were wrong and the crash would still be of ''alien'' origin the whole controversy would be weirder than first perceived.

I gues in the discussion in this thread my posts are a bit of beat. The ''cryptoterrestrial'' origin for the Roswell crash is not one that gets mentioned a lot in the discussions about the incident and maybe rightfully so.
 
The ''cryptoterrestrial'' origin for the Roswell crash is not one that gets mentioned a lot in the discussions about the incident and maybe rightfully so.

AFAIK there's no evidence for some nonhumn earthly civilization, either the thing itself or some fossil evidence leading to a separate form of earthly intelligence. The only thing that can be said for 'cryptoterrestrials" is the difficulty we now have of understanding how interstellar travel can be accomplished; ergo UFOs might be from here. But just extrapolate a bit from our progress to date, and imagine what an older ET system might do. :)
 
The only reason why Roswell became such an important part of American E.T. folklore is because of the stupid way by which the military handled the P.R. aspect of the incident. I believe that they were testing a top secret craft of some sort out there in the desert and either it collided with another or just fell out of the sky for some reason and eventually crash landed on the ground.

It would explain why there isn't any wreckage of an unknown or extraterrestrial makeup, there isn't any special metal, there isn't any E.T. bodies, and there isn't anything but a covered up USAF test which failed that day.

So in conclusion what does the govt. do in order to finally put an end to this drivel, they come out with the stupid weather balloon explanation...something even more ridiculous than E.T.

I honestly believe the Govt. wants people to believe it was E.T. (thus the poor weather balloon explanation) and not one of their tests...or that they used this for disinformation for years later, all the while covertly developing and testing craft everyone from Stanton Friedman to Dr. Dan has been calling E.T. What better way to divert attention away from their needs?
 

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It would explain why there isn't any wreckage of an unknown or extraterrestrial makeup, there isn't any special metal, there isn't any E.T. bodies, and there isn't anything but a covered up USAF test which failed that day.

Sure, they're still determined and able to cover up some ancient jalopy aircraft but unwilling and incapable of covering up an alien spacecraft.

So in conclusion what does the govt. do in order to finally put an end to this drivel, they come out with the stupid weather balloon explanation...

They say it was a MOGUL balloon array not a weather balloon. I don't buy it but tell Moody, Allen or Gilles it is stupid. :)

I honestly believe the Govt. wants people to believe it was E.T. (thus the poor weather balloon explanation)

No way the government wants people to think it's ET, lol. Had it been a by now 64 year old aircraft, it would've been given--or been discovered--as the explanation years ago.
 
No way the government wants people to think it's ET, lol. Had it been a by now 64 year old aircraft, it would've been given--or been discovered--as the explanation years ago.

Yes and that is exactly why I feel this way. Had it been a true E.T. craft it would have either been disclosed of or some proof of thus would have had to have escaped to the surface....The odds are just too much against that type of cover up from being successful after all these years.

This is not like JFK or 9/11 in that those are conspiracies (theories/?) originally with very little physical proof which hasn't already been found and disseminated to the extent where nothing further has been enlightened upon as to the blame. With JFK you had the lone print, a photograph showing a possible person in the 6th floor front window of the TSBD and nothing more but eyewitness reports. With 9/11 you have Nano- science, metal girder arguments as to how number 7 fell and eyewitness reports.

With Roswell you supposedly have:

1. Crash Wreckage
2. Dead E.T. bodies
3. Rubber Metal
4. An original version of Bob Lazar element 115 perhaps found at the crash site?
5. An entire craft, yet damaged?
6. Advanced engineering and mechanical know how supposedly learned which is so far advanced that today we should all be like the Jetsons.

And on and on.

Where is it? Whereas in the other two examples I have presented, the evidence already found has long ago come to the surface, been looked into, and opinions have been drawn....

In the case of an extra-terrestrial craft crashing at Roswell, in over 60 years not one bit of the above physical evidence (evidence according to well wishers and nothing more) has been presented to the world for review. Why?

Could it be because 1-6 above is nothing more than fantasy which has developed over the years into so many bad examples of over active imaginations?
 
To get all there is to know about Roswell just read Friedman's old book, Crash at Corona. Everything published about the incident since then (Even by Kevin Randle. But at least he's now admitted that several of the things he added to the case have turned out to not be true) has been CRAP. The initial claims by Marcel and a few others were interesting but since then things have blown up into a cacophony of exaggerated and even fictional horseshit. All these witnesses to a second crash site, to alien bodies, etc: all obvious liars. Roswell seems to me like Randle's version of Stanton Friedman's MJ-12. The case has fell apart all around him and just like Friedman with MJ-12 he can't let it go.
 
To get all there is to know about Roswell just read Friedman's old book, Crash at Corona. Everything published about the incident since then (Even by Kevin Randle. But at least he's now admitted that several of the things he added to the case have turned out to not be true) has been CRAP. The initial claims by Marcel and a few others were interesting but since then things have blown up into a cacophony of exaggerated and even fictional horseshit. All these witnesses to a second crash site, to alien bodies, etc: all obvious liars....

Not all; ask Rudiak.

---------- Post added at 11:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:04 AM ----------

Yes and that is exactly why I feel this way. Had it been a true E.T. craft it would have either been disclosed of or some proof of thus would have had to have escaped to the surface....The odds are just too much against that type of cover up from being successful after all these years.

No way it would've been disclosed and the government's ability to keep things under wraps if it really wants too shouldn't be doubted. ULTRA was kept under wraps not only throughout the war but for 30 years afterwards i.e. long after the only good reason for keeping it secret had ended.


With Roswell you supposedly have:

1. Crash Wreckage
2. Dead E.T. bodies
3. Rubber Metal
4. An original version of Bob Lazar element 115 perhaps found at the crash site?
5. An entire craft, yet damaged?
6. Advanced engineering and mechanical know how supposedly learned which is so far advanced that today we should all be like the Jetsons.

With regard to the last, considering that some planetary systems, hence civilizations, could be eons older than us, we shouldn't expect complete mastery after just 64 years, necessarily. :)

Where is it? Whereas in the other two examples I have presented, the evidence already found has long ago come to the surface, been looked into, and opinions have been drawn....

In the case of an extra-terrestrial craft crashing at Roswell, in over 60 years not one bit of the above physical evidence (evidence according to well wishers and nothing more) has been presented to the world for review. Why?

It should be obvious. Witnesses described not only unusual things but confiscation of it and silencing of people. Revealing proof of ET might lead to hysteria so there is a very strong incentive to keep it all hidden.

Could it be because 1-6 above is nothing more than fantasy which has developed over the years into so many bad examples of over active imaginations?


Unlikely in the case of the Marcels.
 
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Not all; ask Rudiak. .

David Rudiak?

Funny, General Ramey’s Memo speaks nothing about “extra-terrestrials” or “aliens” or even “Martians” for that matter. The only thing the memo speaks about is “victims”, a term by which I really cannot believe a military officer; trained in military protocol and boarding on anally retentive perfection would use without the proper adjective preceding it…something like “alien” victims, or, “space” victims. No, in this case I believe he is talking about “human” victims, something which if already understood by the man targeted for such a document, and the use “human” in this case would have seemed repetitious, if not overtly obvious.

Secondly, the word “disc” found in the memo is easily explained as a number of test vehicles the government had been working with ever since they captured Nazi Scientists from Peenemunde and other areas of Germany. The dates hold as an easy support base for this, as the mid to late 40’s during the time these vehicles were being tested. Diversionary tactics notwithstanding, the government allowed for tests to be completed with the utmost secrecy, even going so far as to covering over their mistakes. It would be so much easier to keep the secret of a military test suppressed that it ever would something of an extra terrestrial origin.

Here is Rudiak's site for any interested: http://roswellproof.homestead.com/

No way it would've been disclosed and the government's ability to keep things under wraps if it really wants too shouldn't be doubted. ULTRA was kept under wraps not only throughout the war but for 30 years afterwards i.e. long after the only good reason for keeping it secret had ended.

But that is my point. MKULTRA was kept under wraps for 30 years because it was kept under wraps for 30 years. Just like many other secret government tests. Roswell has been kept under wraps for 67 years, and done so with the advantage of diverting all of us into thinking the “extra-terrestrials” are to blame and that there is something to this idea that we have been visited, etc. What better way to blame everything on this instead of legitimizing what they are truly doing up to this day.

MKULTRA had no physical material proof to hide, other than the people involved and the records of its existence. Roswell has been heard to have had the supposed “evidential” list I stated to you splayed out across an expanse for miles and miles. How on earth you or anyone could compare a cover up of this magnitude and variance with all the supposed physical proof such as dead bodies and rubber metal and element 115 with a fingerprint on a box in the TSBD or nano-science used during 9/11 is beyond me.



With regard to the last, considering that some planetary systems, hence civilizations, could be eons older than us, we shouldn't expect complete mastery after just 64 years, necessarily.
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Ok, complete mastery would be something I would expect we could have some trouble with….But what about element 115? What about a fuel which could save the world’s needs. Why hasn’t some greedy person used this to make his Billions….Someone say Lazar? Supposedly he has this in his possession, yet he’s receiving funds from a hooker to do her books instead.


And what about the rubber metal? Someone has to have this unbelievable material in a shoebox somewhere. The crap was said to be splayed out throughout the entire countryside yet not one piece has ever seen the light of day….Not one solitary piece in all the years since.


It should be obvious. Witnesses described not only unusual things but confiscation of it and silencing of people. Revealing proof of ET might lead to hysteria so there is a very strong incentive to keep it all hidden.


Huh? So for lack of any better explanation as to why we should all bow to people like Rudiak and Boyle and just believe it’s true, you state the “silencing of people”…..LOL! As far as I have seen in the many years I have researched this subject, silencing is something which IS IN NO WAY happening. Bob Lazar and his whimsies are an excellent example of this…Then there is Dr. Dan and his far out crap….and on and on.



Unlikely in the case of the Marcels.


They were given the chance. We have waited for the son, the family, and anyone else who would like to to present actual PHYSICAL proof of what happened there that day. Again, nothing.
 
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David Rudiak?

Funny, General Ramey’s Memo speaks nothing about “extra-terrestrials” or “aliens” or even “Martians” for that matter. The only thing the memo speaks about is “victims”, a term by which I really cannot believe a military officer; trained in military protocol and boarding on anally retentive perfection would use without the proper adjective preceding it…something like “alien” victims, or, “space” victims. No, in this case I believe he is talking about “human” victims, something which if already understood by the man targeted for such a document, and the use “human” in this case would have seemed repetitious, if not overtly obvious.

I don't know if the memo can be confidently deciphered and read. Previously I only meant to say that he thinks the crash site, other than the ranch one is valid, despite some unreliable testimony about it.

Secondly, the word “disc” found in the memo is easily explained as a number of test vehicles the government had been working with ever since they captured Nazi Scientists from Peenemunde and other areas of Germany. The dates hold as an easy support base for this, as the mid to late 40’s during the time these vehicles were being tested. Diversionary tactics notwithstanding, the government allowed for tests to be completed with the utmost secrecy, even going so far as to covering over their mistakes. It would be so much easier to keep the secret of a military test suppressed that it ever would something of an extra terrestrial origin.

But some '40s craft would've been long ago revealed or discovered to be the explanation.




But that is my point. MKULTRA was kept under wraps for 30 years because it was kept under wraps for 30 years. Just like many other secret government tests. Roswell has been kept under wraps for 67 years, and done so with the advantage of diverting all of us into thinking the “extra-terrestrials” are to blame and that there is something to this idea that we have been visited, etc...

But the government has discouraged that view.

MKULTRA had no physical material proof to hide, other than the people involved and the records of its existence. Roswell has been heard to have had the supposed “evidential” list I stated to you splayed out across an expanse for miles and miles. How on earth you or anyone could compare a cover up of this magnitude and variance with all the supposed physical proof such as dead bodies and rubber metal and element 115 with a fingerprint on a box in the TSBD or nano-science used during 9/11 is beyond me.

The material was confiscated and taken away. Revealing proof of ETs could lead to hysteria, so they have a very strong incentive to conceal it. And there really isn't all that much to conceal.





Ok, complete mastery would be something I would expect we could have some trouble with….But what about element 115? What about a fuel which could save the world’s needs. Why hasn’t some greedy person used this to make his Billions….Someone say Lazar? Supposedly he has this in his possession, yet he’s receiving funds from a hooker to do her books instead.

Just like with the space program, and probably even more so, only the government may have the resources to do much if anything with this material.

The crap was said to be splayed out throughout the entire countryside yet not one piece has ever seen the light of day….Not one solitary piece in all the years since.

I don't think the debris field encompassed "the entire countryside." The military came and confiscated the stuff, except for a few bits found later by Bill, and they took those too.





Huh? So for lack of any better explanation as to why we should all bow to people like Rudiak and Boyle and just believe it’s true, you state the “silencing of people”…..LOL! As far as I have seen in the many years I have researched this subject, silencing is something which IS IN NO WAY happening.

It worked very well for many years. By the time people felt it was OK to talk, like marcel was doing, a lot of firsthand witnesses were gone or just about.

Bob Lazar and his whimsies are an excellent example of this…Then there is Dr. Dan and his far out crap….and on and on.

As long as these people don't have proof, and provide dubious information, they aren't taken very seriously.
 
To be vague in reply is to evade the overtly obvious, especially in the case of Roswell. Ramey's memo has been clearly shown to utilize the word, "victim" and to do so without an adjective to show thus:

http://www.subversiveelement.com/Roswell_Ramey_Memo.html

The diversionary part of that statement means just that.....A Roswell after affect to divert information....to be used to keep people guessing away from what really happened or what really is happening.

The tactic aspect of the statement means an actually planned objective seeking agenda which when in the context of diversionary, should self explain its meaning. A 40's craft would in no way mean a damn thing in the context of leakage unexplained or explained away as a weather balloon. The idea was to divert the conscious understanding of the actual test usages not that something didn't crash there. In time when the 40's craft became irrelevant, due to advances in science, the explanation for it being a 40's craft morphed into a 50's and then 60's and then 70's and on until we were enlightened to the stealth bomber, etc.

But...and here is the key*...During the 40's NOTHING even compared to the technology the Nazi's had developed. Some say they were 20 years ahead in their "theory" based ideas, not in the actual physical development. Some say this is wrong and they were 20 to 30 years ahead in both areas but lacked the means to produce...either way, to keep this advance a secret would have been one of the most important aspects of the U.S. govt. at the time... *leading to and FOR THE EVENTUAL SPACE RACE.

Lastly, one of the reasons why a craft of this sort was not finally exposed as the culprit, is for the "effectual" propaganda people who believe in E.T. as the answer gave them for so many years. They knew that by letting the reigns out on all this out-worldly crap that their real intentions would be safely hidden from a more obvious answer.

Today they could care less if you think it was E.T., A Nazi Craft, or George Jefferson....They have advanced to the point where their vehicles can only be defined as something from another world because we have nothing "officially" which can be compared to the supposed advanced levels in science and thus do the many things these crafts can do. They surpassed the reason to have to keep presenting excuses because the UFO world made it so impossible to get any handle on anything; everyone in that community just runs around in the hamster wheel of stupid fantasy backed contact reports and mired "ancient" alien ludicrousness until they get tired of it all, like Gene and many others.
 
Lastly, one of the reasons why a craft of this sort was not finally exposed as the culprit, is for the "effectual" propaganda people who believe in E.T. as the answer gave them for so many years. They knew that by letting the reigns out on all this out-worldly crap that their real intentions would be safely hidden from a more obvious answer.

But they've denied ET for many years, with everything they could think of, even utilizing crash dummies. Also, there have been so many investigators researching every conceivable earthly explanation--even possible Japanese POWs in a balloon, and kids with progeria. Given such intense focus, if there were any real evidence for the crash of some experimental craft, it would've surfaced long ago. It also should be noted that even if some craft like mogul, was classified, the materials of which it was made would be more or less ordinary metal, not the strange stuff reported by marcel and others.

Today they could care less if you think it was E.T., A Nazi Craft, or George Jefferson....

They do care; they've endlessly opposed the ET interpretation.

They have advanced to the point where their vehicles can only be defined as something from another world because we have nothing "officially" which can be compared to the supposed advanced levels in science and thus do the many things these crafts can do.

So UFOs are government craft--strange that so many military craft are still jet powered...


They surpassed the reason to have to keep presenting excuses because the UFO world made it so impossible to get any handle on anything; everyone in that community just runs around in the hamster wheel of stupid fantasy backed contact reports and mired "ancient" alien ludicrousness until they get tired of it all, like Gene and many others.

There are responsible researchers, and witnesses.
 
Roswell again,

Follow the chain of command who stationed prior to the so called Roswell Crash and who was sent overseas and who was demoted ?

Follow the money and political events at the time?

Military Police Reports, Military Inventory Receipts such as ordnance supplies , electronic delivers , specialized chemical or biological issues of suits.?

Insurance Claims ?

Which spooks gain from it?

Any grievances or political issue among those scientist taken from Paperclip leaked to there family members?

Still in the Grey basket?
 
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