1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. SUPPORT THE SHOW AND ENJOY A PREMIUM PARACAST EXPERIENCE! Welcome to The Paracast+! For a low subscription fee, you will receive access to an ad-free version of The Paracast, the exclusive After The Paracast podcast, featuring color commentary, exclusive interviews, plus show transcripts, the new Paracast+ Video Channel, Classic Episodes and Special Features categories! We now offer lifetime memberships! You can subscribe via this direct link:
    https://www.theparacast.com/introducing-the-paracast/

    The Official Paracast Store is back! Check out our latest lineup of customized stuff at: The Official Paracast Store!

    Subscribe to The Paracast Newsletter!
    Dismiss Notice

More Serious UFO Reporting

Discussion in 'The UFO Forum' started by Gene Steinberg, May 5, 2013.



  1. Gene Steinberg

    Gene Steinberg Forum Super Hero Staff Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2006
    Messages:
    11,884
    Likes Received:
    4,558
    Occupation:
    Forum Super Hero
    Location:
    Somewhere
    Home Page:
  2. Astrocat

    Astrocat Paranormal Maven

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2012
    Messages:
    43
    Likes Received:
    22
    Occupation:
    Boeing
    Location:
    Salt Lake City
    "UFOs the tip of the iceberg!" It makes you wonder what other stuff Jim Courant is privy to? How many other pilots are informed like he is appearing to be? What types of experiences besides sightings, is he referring to? Cool Article!
     
  3. LennyfromMaine

    LennyfromMaine Skilled Investigator

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2012
    Messages:
    18
    Likes Received:
    19
    I've always wondered what these pilots discuss behind closed doors. Is it a well know secret? Is it a do not mention? I'd love to hear one of these pilots on The Paracast, answering tough questions. I truly believe something is being seen up there.
     
  4. Usual Suspect

    Usual Suspect USI Calgary

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2010
    Messages:
    7,727
    Likes Received:
    5,336
    Location:
    Calgary Canada
    Home Page:
    One of the classic opening scenes in Close Encounters of the Third Kind.
    A realistic portrayal of this type of thing ...

    Too bad the whole movie didn't maintain this direction.
    Betcha forgot about this scene - didn't cha :D ?
     
    RenaissanceLady and Astrocat like this.
  5. Goggs Mackay

    Goggs Mackay Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2011
    Messages:
    3,928
    Likes Received:
    3,307
    Occupation:
    Engineer
    Location:
    Aberdeen, Scotland.
    I suggest you post in the guest suggestion section, and I have a name for you - I envisage he could be a guest but not for a full show. Capt Ray Bowyer is the name, and he sighted one or two huge objects over the English Channel a few years back. His passengers, another plane's crew and control towers (the radar) all saw the object(s).
     
    Constance, Polterwurst and boomerang like this.
  6. Usual Suspect

    Usual Suspect USI Calgary

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2010
    Messages:
    7,727
    Likes Received:
    5,336
    Location:
    Calgary Canada
    Home Page:
    Ya ... Great suggestion, let's get NARCAP to come on the Paracast along with couple of their star witnesses. Should we put this in the "Guest Suggestion" thread of do you think Gene will notice it here ;) ?
     
  7. Gene Steinberg

    Gene Steinberg Forum Super Hero Staff Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2006
    Messages:
    11,884
    Likes Received:
    4,558
    Occupation:
    Forum Super Hero
    Location:
    Somewhere
    Home Page:
    Constance and Usual Suspect like this.
  8. Usual Suspect

    Usual Suspect USI Calgary

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2010
    Messages:
    7,727
    Likes Received:
    5,336
    Location:
    Calgary Canada
    Home Page:
  9. FletcherMunson

    FletcherMunson Paranormal Adept

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2010
    Messages:
    57
    Likes Received:
    42
    If Capt. Courant does indeed appear on The Paracast, hopefully, he won't get off the hook by saying, "There are certain things I have been privy to, but I can't get into that here." This is a tired song and dance in this field that needs to be ridiculed out of existence. Sure, there may have been time constraints in the CHD event, but statements like this should not go unchallenged regardless of the setting.

    Not only has hyperbole like this sullied the subject, it's also somewhat hypocritical. How can someone demand the government dole out its files on UFOs, but then say, "Well, I can't tell you everything I know right now"? It's falsely cryptic and accomplishes nothing, except maybe a few book or DVD sales.

    Also, while I understand the notion that pilots make very reliable UFO witnesses because of their knowledge of the myriad of aircraft in the sky, it's worrisome that any pilot (or astronaut, for that matter) who comes out and says, "We're not alone!" automatically causes some factions to accept the claim without blinking an eye. A uniform does not make a person infallible, and it does not make someone less prone to hallucinations or, as so often happens in the UFO field, insanity.
     
    RenaissanceLady and Astrocat like this.
  10. Atticus11

    Atticus11 Paranormal Adept

    Joined:
    May 9, 2013
    Messages:
    78
    Likes Received:
    22
    With what airline did/does Courant fly? Where did he receive his flight training? It's always interesting how we happily assume the most wild claims of people are correct, even when those people deny us access to their most basic biographical details outside of their name and gender.

    What did Richard Dolan do for gainful employment between his birth in (according to his website) 1962 and his first book in 2000? His biography on his website gives birth, education, and then skips 20 years. Was he a cashier at a supermarket? A bank teller? What?

    The biographies of ufologists are, hands down, the most weirdly selective, stitched together bios of any "field," anywhere.
     
  11. Usual Suspect

    Usual Suspect USI Calgary

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2010
    Messages:
    7,727
    Likes Received:
    5,336
    Location:
    Calgary Canada
    Home Page:
    I suspect that there are actually weirder bios out there. Actors come immediately to mind. I've personally had so many day jobs I don't recall them all. My last one was working as a "Computer Specialist" at a Canadian drug store chain called London Drugs ( I wouldn't recommend buying anything from them after that experience ). I've also been a Railroad Section Foreman, Landscape Lead Hand, Internet Project Manager, Dish Washer, Vacuum Cleaner Sales Rep, Starving Artist and Alternative Grunge Rocker. These days I manage my websites and do mobile PC technical work. I have a very modest income.
     
  12. Atticus11

    Atticus11 Paranormal Adept

    Joined:
    May 9, 2013
    Messages:
    78
    Likes Received:
    22
    At least you're willing to provide some background on yourself. Most of the celebrities of ufology just have these several decades-long gaps in their lives, but their backgrounds are highly relevant since so much of the so-called "evidence" they claim comes from anonymous sources. Backgrounding is a necessary function in establishing credibility.

    For instance, I would appreciate knowing what a recently very prominent "ufologist" involved in the Citizen Hearing was doing before he burst onto the UFO scene well into his 40s (not Richard Dolan, someone else). I checked a federal court database and found a bankruptcy case involving a person of the same name, age and in the same state in which he lives dated 1993, during the long blank period of his life. I suppose I could just pull those files and find out exactly what he had cooking, but it's so much effort for such a sideshow.
     
    FletcherMunson and Usual Suspect like this.
  13. Usual Suspect

    Usual Suspect USI Calgary

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2010
    Messages:
    7,727
    Likes Received:
    5,336
    Location:
    Calgary Canada
    Home Page:
    Ultimately, to paraphrase Chris, "the message is more important than who delivers it", plus incredible things can happen to un-credible people. For analysts or investigators, it should be the evidence rather than the personalities that speak to the credibility of a case. The old saying that if you can't attack the evidence, attack the witness, seems to be a time honored tradition of skeptics and debunkers.

    Now that being said there's also no doubt that credibility has an influence on our perceptions of what is true. But does it really matter if someone has had to declare bankruptcy? I don't think so. In many cases the scammers on Wall street who forced a lot of decent people into bankruptcy are more to blame. We need to consider the mitigating circumstances. Short of committing deliberate fraud or other breaches of trust, most of the problems people have in life aren't all that relevant.
     
  14. Frank Stalter

    Frank Stalter Paranormal Adept

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2009
    Messages:
    464
    Likes Received:
    156
    Home Page:
    I judge the work, background really isn't relevant to me. I wouldn't go into my own, because quite frankly I'd be a little concerned about someone else possibly getting some details wrong, exaggerating, etc, and then having that reflect back on me. I've got a background. Everybody does, and I do UFO research as a hobby and that is available for anyone to look at. Whatever my professional and educational background may or may not be, it doesn't change the research results.
     
    Usual Suspect likes this.
  15. RenaissanceLady

    RenaissanceLady Paranormal Adept

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2012
    Messages:
    737
    Likes Received:
    1,666
    Occupation:
    Writer
    Location:
    Park County, Colorado
    That was always among my absolute favorite scenes in the movie. It added a layer of realism that made the movie seem more genuine.

    I should note that my father's UFO experience was while working for Braniff Airlines, in an ATC tower at Dallas Love Field. I was left with the impression that pilots did frequently have strange encounters, but were loathe to talk about them due to fear of retribution. At the same time, I should note that the pilots I've personally known have said the exact opposite: That they know of no pilot who has had a UFO encounter and that these alleged experiences are works of fiction. Even a pilot whose column I regularly read has said the exact same thing. Two very distinct, polar-opposite realities.
     
    Usual Suspect and Atticus11 like this.
  16. Atticus11

    Atticus11 Paranormal Adept

    Joined:
    May 9, 2013
    Messages:
    78
    Likes Received:
    22
    When dealing with independently verifiable information and data-based facts, you're correct, the messenger is irrelevant.

    When dealing with interpretive data and anonymous sources, the messenger is absolutely relevant.

    If we are denied the ability - as with an anonymous source - to verify the background and credentials of the source we must be given the opportunity to feel confidence in the ability and qualifications of the "messenger" to accurately interpret data and thoroughly vet the source on our behalf, as well as assurance that the "messenger" does not have an unscrupulous personal history.

    In every other field, people publish thorough and comprehensive biographies about themselves. In ufology, people publish highly selective biographies that, often, leave 10, 20, 30 year gaps in their life. Take Richard Dolan, for instance. He says he was born in 1962 and received a MA at some point in time (who knows when) ... then, apparently, he stared at a wall for 15-20 years, then he published a UFO book from a little self-help publishing house, then he self-published a second one in which he quotes Butch Witkowski as a police officer. My confidence level in his "anonymous source?" Zero.

    Jim Courant ... he was a pilot at some point for someone and received his flight training from somewhere. When, who and where? We don't need to know, I guess.

    This is the field that has produced the likes of "Dr." Phil Imbrogno and "Lt.-Commander" Richard Thielmann (sp?). Forgive me if I'm skeptical.
     
  17. Atticus11

    Atticus11 Paranormal Adept

    Joined:
    May 9, 2013
    Messages:
    78
    Likes Received:
    22
    I used to know a former TWA pilot somewhat well. I asked him about UFOs and pilots. He said, in his 35-year flying career, he knew of exactly 2 pilots who felt they had seen UFOs. One reported it and one didn't. The one who did report it faced no repercussions. The one who didn't report it subsequently flunked his vision test during his renewal medical certificate exam.

    Pilots are, in fact, humans. Pilots get old just like everyone else. Pilots bodies fall apart just like everyone else. Pilots sometimes have psychological difficulty dealing with the impacts of aging just like everyone else. A pilot who sees a UFO and doesn't report it is being radically irresponsible. He is putting his passengers at risk by assuming it's more likely that space aliens are harassing his aircraft than his eyesight is degrading. That pilot is the kind of person who is, probably, psychologically predisposed to start bar fights or boast to his friends about what he can bench-press. He is confident in a self-perception of his own physical perfection to the point that he believes it's more likely space aliens are chasing him in flying saucers than his body is flawed.
     
  18. Frank Stalter

    Frank Stalter Paranormal Adept

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2009
    Messages:
    464
    Likes Received:
    156
    Home Page:
    Now you're comparing apples and oranges . . . a guy who falsely claimed he went to MIT and a guy who got into UFOs maybe a couple decades or so after he got out of college. When I went to college, I don't remember too many people saying, "I plan to get into UFO research." I know I didn't. It's something I just got into and had some luck in turning up stuff I thought was interesting and have stayed on it since. I don't think that's all that uncommon. If education or work experience isn't really relevant to the research but the research is solid, who cares? I would take anything that comes from an anonymous source with a grain of salt, even if an established mainstream journalist was doing the reporting. Of course, anonymous sources come in all shapes, they're often just used for background. I have a couple friends who are retired USAF officers and have asked them questions regarding aviation. I don't even mention them specifically, but have used their answers to my questions. I have confidence they know what they're talking about.
     
  19. Atticus11

    Atticus11 Paranormal Adept

    Joined:
    May 9, 2013
    Messages:
    78
    Likes Received:
    22
    The so-called "research" obviously isn't all that solid when one is quoting Butch Witkowski as a retired police officer in one's self-published book.

    (Not referencing Dolan now, but just generally speaking) for every Imbrogno or Thielmann there are a dozen more who simply haven't been outed. In approaching ufologists, I - therefore - assume each of them is an Imbrogno-in-Waiting until I've personally verified their biography. If their biography is so vague and cryptic that verification is impossible, I simply ignore all their sci-fi stories. When people are vague, cryptic or evasive about themselves, 9 out of 10 times they have something to hide.

    Typical trends in most (but not all) ufologist biographies:
    - claims of degrees without stating the field of degree, institution or year granted
    - degrees from unaccredited institutions, online universities and degree mills
    - use of the word "attended" in lieu of the words "graduated" or "received degree from" in describing alma mater
    - various illustrious titles from non-English speaking nations (e.g. "holder of the Grand Cordon of the Order of Science of Malaysia")
    - generic descriptions of experience (i.e. "worked for one of the world's largest widget manufacturers")
    - self-granted laudits (e.g. "widely considered the preeminent authority on ...")
    - large gaps of unaccounted-for life work (e.g. "Dr. John Smith was born in Arkansas and received an honorary doctorate from the University of Homeopathic Psychic Healing of Little Rock in 1970. In 2005 he published "UFOs are Here to Eat Us" and headlined the MUFON Northeast Pennsylvania regional symposium.")
    - improper double-use of the title "doctor" (e.g. "Dr. John Smith, Ph.D.")
     
    FletcherMunson likes this.
  20. Usual Suspect

    Usual Suspect USI Calgary

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2010
    Messages:
    7,727
    Likes Received:
    5,336
    Location:
    Calgary Canada
    Home Page:
    Good so far.
    Well ... I think we diverge here a bit. From my perspective, "interpretive data and anonymous sources" are about as useful as science fiction. It might be entertaining, but that's about all it amounts to no matter how credible the person telling the story is, and either way ( credible or not ), if the story provides leads to verifiable information, then either way ( credible or not ), the information is still just as useful. Therefore strictly speaking, credibility is separate from the information and the information is where the focus of an objective analyst or investigator should remain.
    Among your examples are incidences where a clear breach of trust seems to have taken place ( e.g. the pretense of having certain credentials ), and as mentioned earlier, this has an effect on our assumptions about the veracity of the information that has been provided. Nevertheless, these assumptions should be set aside in favor of an objective look at the evidence. If the evidence can't be objectively verified somehow, then it reverts to being sci-fi again, and either way the credibility of the source is irrelevant. What credibility can do is serve as a guidepost to what information among the billions of bits of data we should look at in the first place.

    Of course then we run the risk of having a Boy Who Cried Wolf scenario play out whereby we miss some vital bit of information because we chose to ignore it based on credibility alone. A prime example of this is the 1975 Sitgreaves National Forest case ( commonly known as the Travis Walton abduction ). It's probably the single most divisive case in ufology history, and it's based almost entirely on credibility, not simply of Walton, but also of the crew, the lie detector operators and the UFO investigators who took the case on.
     
Loading...

Share This Page