Michael Horn & The Billy Meier Contacts

[mrufo]

Horn, you really know how to try and spin people about. You answer questions with questions and do your best to avoid simply answering a question about the alleged TJ - a scientifically important question at that. Where's the evidence that Meier ever found this?

Being the United States Media Representative for Meier, one would think you'd be able to answer this question. Is this how you represent the Big M here in the states?

Forget arguing with Horn, his opinion is the only thing that matters here and it won't matter how much evidence you have, there is no way the faithful believer will ever sway from his prophet. And is Horn his real last name? The angel comes blowing the horn of warning for all mankind...? Right...

Sample Q & A with Michael Horn...

Q: So, Michael, where is the evidence documenting that TJ's discovery?

Horn: Replicate it if you think it is a fake!

Q: Uh, okay, uh, Michael, the whole garbage can lid subject really can't be dismissed by saying its just a controversial aspect of the Meier case. After all, even the aliens Meier claims to be on contact with mention this extremely lame lid bit.

Horn: Then replicate it! Replicate it!

Q: <snaps fingers> Michael...Michael! Over here. Now what about this analysis showing the so-called wedding cake ufo photos to be bogus?

Horn: Meier told me it was real! Replicate it!

Q: <sigh> Okay, so if the photos are fake, then...

Horn: It isn't about UFOs! Don't you get it you skeptical, primitive, infidel!

Q: But doesn't Meier say that he was contacted by UFOs and the aliens gave him this info and...

Horn: Forget the UFOs, dolt! Focus on the predictions! The specific, prophetic predictions that Meier has made!

Q: Okay, what are some of the specific future predictions Meier has made? Can you just give me a few?

Horn: You fool, do some homework! I have no respect for amateurs! Absolutely goddamned pathetic. Get on your knees and apologize this instant, heathen! Read the Henoch Prophecies and quiver in fear little man! Replicate it if it is fake!

Q: Aren't the Pleiadians here to help us grow spiritually through their messages to Meier and don't you think it would be fair to simply share some of that prophetic information in advance for the rest of...

Horn: It might help if you recognized that you're too blitheringly stupid to have done your homework and, as such, plainly unworthy of any new information, since you can't even recognize the validity of that which is already published.

Q: Um, Michael, you really...

Horn: Consider yourself addressed in that warning.

Q: I'd like to ask...

Horn: Yes, contacted you because you're the shallow, lazy joker who attacked someone because it's YOU who didn't do YOUR homework. Meier is so far beyond your comprehension, though he shouldn't be, simply because you don't...THINK.

Q: You need to clam down and try answering some ques...

Horn: Numbnuts, do your parents know that you're doing this?

Q: I'm a forty-year-old man, what are trying to say...

Horn: YOU prove to me that you're not some anonymous, pimply-faced, 18 year-old kid, living off his parents and using their computer when they're at work and you'll get the predictions, though you sure as hell won't like what they have to say.

Q: Michael, since you're the meida representative for Meier, and you're cleary stating the case is 100% authentic, don't you think the burden of proof falls on you since...

Horn: It's completely obvious that you're one of the 3-second attention span generation, probably pierced beyond recognition, strung out on some weird drug.

Q: You know, you really should work on your communication skills here and not...

Horn: replicate it! bow from the knees infidel dog!

Q: What are you...

Horn: Replicate it! Replicate it! Replicate it!

(Yes, some comedy there mixed with some real responses from Horn. Though I don't think many find the humor in a blind zealot holding on to a fragile little fantasy while trying to force feed it to the masses)

 

[Sukrillux]

lol @ mrufo

An exaggeration, but funny. Nice to have some comic relief in this thread turned war room.

Mr. Horn, I have one question about the night shot WCUFO. Where were those taken? I apologize if you have already posted the answer to this here. It just makes my eyes hurt trying to read through all of the belittling and name calling to find your answers to posters' questions. I don't mean that in a demeaning way. I am telling the truth as I know it by making that statement. I am being serious here. Only a simple explanation of Mr. Meier's surroundings when taking those night shot photos will do as an answer. Thanks in advance, Mr. Horn. I am trying to re-approach this with an unbiased view.

I second what SR1 said about the upcoming show. I hope it is civil and tolerable. There is nothing worse than an hour and a half of raised voices talking over each other fighting for air time... not to say that it would happen. I love the show and can't wait for the next!

 

[Aspie]

Oh yeah, as for the New Age part?I was doing research on it, since I created a whole act of New Age COMEDY, with songs making fun of the whole thing. Lyrics upon request, trust me, they're hilarious.

I bet they're not.

Me thinks the Hornblower should go do some tai-chi and chill out.

What's he got to say about this picture that Meier claims is Asket and Nera, but is actually a photo taken of a tv screen showing two girls from the Dean martin show

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Hi,

I wanted everyone to know that we've completed our forum maintenance -- for now at least, and things seem to be working properly. We hope the new design will allow for easier readability, and make it easier for you to find new messages.

But I realize this topic is generating lots of emotional content, so I'll remind you that David and I reserve the right to edit and/or remove offensive language or posts. And those who don't obey the rules will be banned from the forum.

 

[david_r_p]

Sigh.. see what I mean. He answers my question with a list of his own questions.

The truth is that it was recognized that part of the Wedding cake UFO looked just like a common trash can lid (including protruding handle).After this was exposed, Meier then said that the aliens told him that they must have somehow influenced trash can manufacturers and that's why the two items look "exactly" (they admitted) the same. (!!! You can't make this stuff up)

Does that sound reasonable to anyone?

And then in his response, he knows I nailed him on the even-handed open-minded charade so he comes up with blather about my question in regards to the wedding cake photo.

It's like pulling off the fake beard on a dime store Santa and having him huff, "Well, can you prove I don't have a sleigh parked on the roof?"

As to the smokescreen questions:

1. Where was the model made and concealed?
Somewhere near Meier's home.
2. Who in Meier's area possesses the specialized skills required for this precision level of manufacture, at any size?
Him or perhaps a scrapbooking soccer mom? The model is idiotic looking.
3. What is it made of?
Mainly a trash can lid and some other bric-a-brac
4. Where were the materials obtained?
A hobby store? His kitchen? But mainly from his trash can.
5. What was the cost of these materials?
$22.16
6. Who paid for it?
Ultimately gullible believers.
7. How long did it take to make? (Remember, a two-armed model maker took four months to assemble his inferior model.)
The claim about the model builder is not substantiated on your site. But my answer would be "Not too long."
8. What does it weigh, assuming even a 5' diameter metallic object, as suggested by one debunker?
Not too much. A few pounds.
9. How was it suspended at 30' by a one-armed man? (Setting up just one special effects shot with a 5' (let alone 14?) object requires numerous people and lots of time. Meier took over 60 photos of the WCUFO, plus the video.)
Never was it 30' high. By string or wire or a hand just out of frame. Oh, and as to your knowledge of setting up shots and photography, I respond "no it doesn't."
10. Where is the model now, what happened to it, would something of this complexity - and value - just disappear?
Trash can lid is back on trash can, I assume (did you check?) I used to sit these kinds of art class projects on my dresser and think after a few months my mom would throw them away.
11. With all of the photos, both day and nighttime, how could Meier have accomplished all of this unobserved and without accomplices?
By being alone.
12. Why hasn't ANYONE come forward to show that they made and/or now have it?
Because Meier is trying to perpetuate his religion/meal ticket.

By the way I can't precisely answer these questions about 2001, a Space Odyssey but I still think those are models, too.

Now David, I think you should take the high road here and try to control your anger in your posts to Michael. Just by talking to him you are doing him a favor--most folks, upon seeing the evidence, would just laugh and walk away. You will get nowhere with him the debate:

You will say "What about x?"

And he will (because he is better at this than you or I) say

Ahh, but what about a
and what about b
and c
and d
e
f
g.

In short, unless the debate is carefully moderated, we are gonna hear a lot of Michael talking (but never saying anything).

Lance

This is the single best, funniest post (and thread) I've ever read. I'm literally laughing out loud!!!

I can't wait til MH is back on the air. Should be a great match-up!!!

 

[TerraX]

TerraX--just wanted to say good work on your analysis of the wedding cake video.
Do you have any higher rez still shots from that same subject--the one you pointed to is pretty small.

Hi Lance. Concerning the WC UFO I think there's only one movie and around 20-25 pictures on the internet. I haven't seen all 60 as claimed. The resolution is pretty much the same because of the camera technology at the time and professional equipment was probably out of reach due to the high cost as it is now. So you are dealing with equipment that is outdated by now and wasn't outstanding in the first place. The resolution by todays standard looks pretty poor at times and any kind of 'blow-up' of the pictures would rather quickly degenerate clairity.

Yes, the motion Meier takes is odd--almost like one getting up from their knees and it took a sharp eye to spot that--grats.

Yep, as far as I know this is the only movie where Meier is in the frame and this one was his last. He didn't do anymore camera work after this one. The link that Michael Horn forwarded is a bit larger and clearer;
http://www.billymeier.com/archives/Wedding_Cake_ship.mpg
With the mpeg you can almost go frame by frame and as I mentioned before Meier seems to go back and down a bit and then up. He doesn't simply turn his body. His body movements seem to suggest he's getting up. He's on his knees or bending down through his legs probably to avoid giving away the camera's low position. You musn't forget that this is a sloping hill and look at the grass especially in full zoom. The grass looks very rough (and high) at times, that's what you get when you're close to the ground and zooming in. Such features would become more dominating. If you have the camera at normal height and on a level field, you wouldn't notice the roughness of the grass at all. Horn talks as if the WC UFO is authenticated by experts but to my knowledge no photographic "expert" actually confirmed the WC UFO.
Professor James Deardorff (atmospheric sciences) comments on it favorably but he's not an expert in photography and just like Michael Horn he's a staunch Meier supporter who also makes a case for the Talmud of Jmmanuel where there's no physical evidence whatsoever.
The Wedding Cake UFOs
Have a look (when you have the time) at how Mr. Deardorff theorises quite often in favor of the Meier case. Missing trees, top of trees knocked down by UFOs, people having no memory of trees being in certain spots where Meier filmed, all of this is explained by Deardorff using a positive spin and thereby exhonorating the Meier case. Although Mr. Deardorff is very polite and doesn't resort to namecalling just like Michael Horn he concludes that every facet of the Meier case is real. So get this straight, he's not neutral observer or independant party, he's a hardcore Meier supporter and any calculations he comes up with are most certainly favorably for the case.

I don't suppose that Meier has ever produced any shots with someone standing by that same sad little tree?

Nope, don't think so. As I mentioned above there is lots of weird stuff happening to trees and the tree in the WC UFO movie probably aint there anymore but Mr. Horn probably has a clear answer on that, or not.

And I suppose that all versions start with him already (presumedly) on his knees. His story must be that the alien (on a break from the Dean Martin show, no doubt) started the tape?

No, the WC movie is the only where he's in the frame and it is claimed that practically all of Meier's films and photographes where taken by him alone.

Do you happen to know how far away is claimed for the tree?
And what model and lens camera was used for the video.

Mr. Deardorff is the 'expert' on that. The Wedding Cake UFOs

If so it would be a simple matter to shoot a person with a yardstick at the claimed distance and zoom all the way in to judge the size in screen and then shoot at the much closer hoax distance and do the same. The trick with the bare hill and no reference then means nothing.

I think the trick is that you have no reference in the film. Sloping hill with only one tree in view, both distance and size can be easily manipulated. If you already presume that the tree is 20 feet high or more then your calculations will automatically follow the 'big proportions'. But let some real photographic experts investigate all the footage and photographs.

That would be a complete and devastating exposure and pretty easy if we have that info on the camera.
Thanks again and good work.

Thank you and other board members as well for keeping their witts.

 

[Sukrillux]

Is it just me or is the video of the WCUFO and the pictures of the WCUFO 2 different craft? In the pictures of the WCUFO at Meier's residence suggests that the craft is probably about 10-12 feet tall. So it looks maybe 1.5 to 2 times the height of an automobile. In the night shots, the craft looks 3-4 times the height of the car depending on the space between the car and UFO. The farther behind the car that the UFO is, the larger the UFO is of course. As the UFO looks unusually clear to be a great distance away in the night shots. In the video that was linked to above, the WCUFO looks to be about 2-3 feet tall. The tree, I'm estimating, looks to be 20-30 feet behind the craft. Now if the WCUFO in the video is supposedly the same as in the residence shots and night shots, there is a big problem here. If the video UFO is 10-12 feet tall, then that tree would have to be a towering 6-10 stories or 60-100 feet tall. The structure of that evergreen is nowhere near adulthood. Even if it was, I have never seen an evergreen growing to be that tall. I am guessing that the tree it self is 10-12 feet tall and the craft 2-3 feet tall. Either these aliens are extremely small or they know how to bend light in impossible ways. Of course, any bending of light would have distorted the tree. That just isn't happening. If Meier and his colleagues would have set up the craft to be behind the tree, they might have their aliens in that video. However, anyone with simple geometric common sense can see that this video is great footage of a model somehow suspended in mid-air. Mr. Horn, if this is presented as true evidence with the photos of the WCUFO, it only hurts your case more. It's common sense...

 

[TerraX]

Hi Lance and List,

As you mentioned Lance, the camera angle is incredibly wide. What does that do to the shot? Yesterday evening I was watching a soccer match and behind the goal they had a camera on wide angle with the goalkeeper being around 16 meters (53") away, that gave the impression that he was very far away but actually he was not. I think a similar thing was done with the WC UFO movie. Although the tree and craft are some distance away, I would guess around 50 meters (200") maybe even less, it's not that far away then what the impression of the shot creates. There's also no reference to other (known) objects.
In other pictures of the WC UFO there are other objects but they are badly out of focus. A car and another tree were visible. The Meier case itself and its supporters mention that there were various types of these craft of different sizes. It's mighty convenient to say well this particular craft is 7 meters because it's hanging over a car and this particular craft is 3.5 meters because it's next to a treetop and they themselves are not sure what kind of ship they have in the shot at times.
Personally, I think it's the same model (around 2") in every shot and there has been some considerable work done in creating realistic looking surroundings (which didn't always work) and who knows how many shots wound up in the trashcan. Still in most shots (especially close-ups) the craft doesn't seem to "belong" in the overall picture

I just found out that Mr. Horn has been temporary restricted from making any posts on this forum and I hope Gene and David will grant him access again provided he keeps it civilized.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

I just found out that Mr. Horn has been temporary restricted from making any posts on this forum and I hope Gene and David will grant him access again provided he keeps it civilized.

That's entirely up to him, at this point. It's something we do very, very reluctantly. We'd prefer to keep the conversation going, even if it gets a little spirited.

 

[TerraX]

The tree itself is the support for the model. That they are at the same distance from the camera is even admitted by the Meier camp.
Lance

I agree. The tree probably supports the model and both are in close proximity to eachother. Take a look at the film again and especially the lower part of the trunk when in full zoom.
http://www.billymeier.com/archives/Wedding_Cake_ship.mpg
Either the tree grew up a bit crooked, or force is being excercised on the trunk causing it to bend slightly. (The latter supporting the notion that it is a juvenile tree.)

When you go to Michael Horn's article about the WC UFO he includes a number of pictures of the craft.
They Fly.com - The Billy Meier 'Hoax' Exposed ? - The Wedding Cake UFO Controversy
Two-thirds down in the page you find a picture labeled WCUFO 9. Have a look at the trunk again. Is that crooked or what? I downloaded that image to my Mac and zoomed in on the tree with a simple picture program. Although the resolution quickly degenerates when you zoom in some features become more transparent. Maybe I'm imagining things but I see a straight horizontal line directly behind the craft within the tree. But I'll admit that this is inconclusive due to the poor resolution. This might make Mr. Horn happy because when zooming in on the picture, 2 objects appear in the background and in the sky but again the resolution is too poor to conclude what they are.

 

[michael]

I'm going to play devil's advocate here for a minute. Let's all assume for a minute that Billy Meier did indeed hoax everything and that his whole intention was to deceive a lot of people for whatever nefarious reason he might've had in mind.

Now I've been looking on the web and have found numerous photos taken by Meier that are very authentic looking and aren't as easily dismissed as the WCUFO photos. And to be honest, if the WCUFO photo is a hoax, it's a stinker. I can't imagine anyone putting out that picture if they a) were simply trying to keep a lie alive and b) already had a lot of photos that made the lie much more believable.

Here's an analogy. Say I want to pass myself off as a wildlife photographer, which I'm not. I go to a taxidermist's shop and get some specimens, set them up in a natural environment and take the pictures.

I bet that with those photos, I could convince more than a few people that I'm a pretty good wildlife photographer. Now say I want to keep the lie going so I grab the stuffed Buster Bunny doll out of my room (yes, I really have a stuffed Buster Bunny), set him up on a tree stump and take the picture. Now I put that alongside all of my other ?wildlife? pictures and try to pass it off as legit.

I guess my question is, if Meier is so cunning to come up with this entire charade, why in the world would he put out the WCUFO photos as more proof of his contacts if they're clearly such ?obvious hoaxes??

I hope I'm making my point clear. It's like, I have all of these photos that honestly appear to be genuine, and then I have this one with a model, a Matchbox car and a plastic tree.

To sum up, I'm not taking anyone's side here, but you have to admit that it doesn't make sense to put out such a ?weak? photo when so many more ?real? ones exist.

Am I wrong in my thinking?

 

[TerraX]

Hi Michael,

It could be that Meier at one point did have something genuine to relay to the people but later on fabricated stuff and/or embellished matters. Researcher Timothy Good often arrives at this conclusion, that most contactees did have something genuine at first but later on continued the saga by themselves eventhough the contacts were over.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

It could be that Meier at one point did have something genuine to relay to the people but later on fabricated stuff and/or embellished matters. Researcher Timothy Good often arrives at this conclusion, that most contactees did have something genuine at first but later on continued the saga by themselves eventhough the contacts were over.

While I wouldn't say this applies to the Meier case, I have to accept the possibility as reasonable. Someone has an experience that cannot be understood. It may be a UFO encounter, or it may be a full blown contact. Regardless, they talk about it and receive lots and lots of attention. But when no more contacts occur, and their 15 minutes of fame proves too fleeting, they decide they need to do something to keep the attention they crave.

The rest is obvious: They decide to "invent" additional experiences. Alas, this obscures the possible reality of the initial experience. As soon as they begin to make up stories, whether alone or with the help of their followers, you can't take them seriously anymore.

So, yes, I wouldn't dismiss the possibility that Billy Meier may have had a genuine UFO encounter at one or more times in his life. But all that fakery and hucksterism that surrounds him has made it impossible to get at the truth, if there is a core truth is to be found.

Let that be a message to any UFO witness who decides that attention and adoration is more important than honesty.

 

[David Biedny]

Serious discussion

Folks,

Gene & I are letting Mr. Horn back into these forums. Please note that I've removed the silly Photoshop image and the "message from aliens", in the interest of keeping this discussion serious - this ain't fark.com. This forum, as well as The Paracast, are here because we're interested in discussing these topics in a reasonable fashion. I've been very clear about my own position in the debate about the Meier case, and will continue to be opinionated, but I'm not going to be very patient with anything that I feel is condescending, preaching or vitriolic, regardless of the source. if Mr. Horn insists, as he has, that none of us understands anything about this case, he will either back his claims up in a reasonable way or take the abusive behaviour somewhere else. If you take the time to listen to our archved shows, you'll find that we ask hard questions of everyone who comes on our show, and we're interested in truth, not indoctrination or religious spiels of any flavor.

dB

 

[michael]

I agree. Let's have some serious discussions about, not just the Meier case, but about all this paranomal phenomena so we might be able to get at some truth. Name calling and put downs from either side don't solve anything and don't move any one of us closer to a truer understanding of the world around us.

And I hope these forums continue to be as active after the furor over Michael Horn and the Meier case everntually dies down.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

I agree. Let's have some serious discussions about, not just the Meier case, but about all this paranomal phenomena so we might be able to get at some truth. Name calling and put downs from either side don't solve anything and don't move any one of us closer to a truer understanding of the world around us.

And I hope these forums continue to be as active after the furor over Michael Horn and the Meier case everntually dies down.

That's up to all of you, as we do want to extend our discussions in these forums far beyond the Meier case.

Anyone up for Project SERPO? Or not?

If so, I'll make a new board for it in our regular UFO forum.

 

[Aspie]

Here's another analogy as to why the early pictures look good and the WCUFO photo not so good.

A long time ago Billy and a group of friends decided to fake some pics. I say a group because we are constantly told that a one armed man couldn't do all this on his own. So they produce these pictures and they look quite real and fool a lot of people.

Years pass by and an American goes over to see Mr Meier and tells him he can make him a lot of money from this case. Money from books, videos, dvd's etc. But if we are going to carry this on we are going to need more pictures.

Mr Meier agrees but all the original hoaxers have moved on with there lives and aren't available to help. So Mr Meier has to try and come up with the new pictures by himself. He can't quite produce the same quality as the originals and the whole case is let down big time and shown up for what it really is, a hoax.

 

[michael]

I would buy that except for a few things. Many of the people who make some kind of living off of their UFO and paranormal research do so without much in the way of evidence. I don't personally know Stanton Friedman, but I'm assuming that he does okay just by lecturing and selling books about the Roswell incident of which there are no pictures or physical evidence to speak of. Another incident that comes to mind is Mothman. Again, the books and film regarding the events in Point Pleasant are soley based on eyewitness testimony. Another example is the Amityville Horror. Movies and books about the events are based purely on one family's testimony, so it doesn't seem that people really need a lot of physical evidence when it comes to the paranormal.

There's plenty of money to be made just based on the testimony of others.

Which brings me back to my point. If you already have a number of very clear, very authentic looking photos (which is more than any other UFO researcher or contactee seems to have) why spoil it with such a crappy looking model and toy car?

 

[TerraX]

The rest is obvious: They decide to "invent" additional experiences. Alas, this obscures the possible reality of the initial experience. As soon as they begin to make up stories, whether alone or with the help of their followers, you can't take them seriously anymore.
So, yes, I wouldn't dismiss the possibility that Billy Meier may have had a genuine UFO encounter at one or more times in his life. But all that fakery and hucksterism that surrounds him has made it impossible to get at the truth, if there is a core truth is to be found.
Let that be a message to any UFO witness who decides that attention and adoration is more important than honesty.

Your point is well taken Gene but I can't help wondering what the core of truth is in these matters and if totally dismissing a contactees tales in the end is a wise thing to do. You're not required to take the contactee seriously when you know a person embellished but you can also strip away the layers of deceit until you have the truth.
Within ufology there are a number of researchers that basicly don't allow the contactee to make one single mistake. One strike and they're out. I realise that the claims by a contactee are severely scrutinized and rightly so, but with some researchers I get the impression that they demand such a high standard from contactees which they don't meet themselves or the standard is not applied to lets say politicians or a president who goes to war under false pretense. People should look at how they do things, that's my point.

 

[TerraX]

Which brings me back to my point. If you already have a number of very clear, very authentic looking photos (which is more than any other UFO researcher or contactee seems to have) why spoil it with such a crappy looking model and toy car?

Hi Michael. Various explanations may be possible. Perhaps Meier wanted to create his 'piece de resistance' and go out with a bang. He didn't do much photography-wise after the WC UFO serie. It could be that his contacts had ended and he added a little something of his own. You presume that his material prior to the WC pictures was flawless? I'm afraid not. There are number of his pictures which point to fraud such as the Asket&Nera photographs.
SIGHTINGS: