Meet Your Meat

[Randall]

Here's an interesting look at a small part of the process of processing YOUR meat ... Purchasing and eating meat should be a licensed privilege. A mandatory three-day training should be enacted giving you a complete look at the process of getting the meat into your supermarket. Birth canal-to-plastic wrap. After a training/licensing process, I wonder how many people would become instant vegetarians... Here's a "taste" of how it's done in today's modern world... And this is the clinical Japanese version... the western version is much more bloody, dirty & disturbing.

Why? Are you telling us there's an aspect of social responsibility here that should compel us to boycott meat? Interesting. I've heard that rationale used for boycotting the use of illegal recreational drugs too. Only with drugs, it's mostly people who are getting killed or injured or messed up instead of animals. I think I'll take your advice and reconsider my next purchase of supermarket beef. I stopped inhaling 20 years ago and rarely even drink. So this shouldn't be hard at all.

 

[stonehart]

Boom, thread over. Fuck vegetarianism, what is it for? Do you think you're going to live forever? A couple of extra years added to the end of your life when you probably won't even remember your own name? If it's out of sympathy for animals then I can accept that, or if you find the whole meat process disgusting, I guess I can understand that, but for health reasons? If it's so good for you, why do you have to take vitamins and supplements in order to prevent yourself from keeling over due to the loss of essential nutrients? Besides, tofu tastes like shit, give me a bacon wrapped steak any day.

It's another example of the polarization of opinion in this country. People want to subscribe to one extreme or the other. Should you eat meat at every meal? No. Does that mean you should never eat meat? No. Like in most things, a healthy balance between the two is often the best way to go.

Amen to that brother.

and has been said BACON!!! .. damn now I need to make a bacon sandwich

 

[Han]

Dear parcasters the following will probably sound like a sermon because it is based on what I believe. (sorry in advance)

First off I would like to talk about hunting and angling:
I can't speak from personal experience about hunting because I have never done it, but my understanding is that hunting is a skill, that is to say that a "good" hunt would cause less suffering and distress to an animal than if it was killed in the abattoir.
When I say "good" hunt I mean that the animal has no idea the hunter is there and that it is killed with one shot to a vital organ, I am sure that this is too often not the case, but it is the goal of a "good" hunt as I understand it, and I find it preferable to an animal being raised indoors in a concrete pen with barely room to move only to be transported a long distance to an abattoir, which is the case for intensively farmed swine. If I had to choose between the lots of the wild boar and the intensively farmed pig I would always choose the life of the wild boar, I do not have a romantic idea about the boar running free and wild, and know that they have a tough struggle to survive, but surely they have a better life.
But in my opinion there is "bad" hunting which I can not condone, I think hunting with dogs is wrong and snaring turns my stomach, for me its all about how and why and I must also point out that in certain cases hunting and angling can actually be good for endangered animals:
the best way I can explain this is if we take anglers for example they provide an invaluable source of first hand information on water pollution and fish health, and are usually the first to report any issues because of the amount of time they spend near the water and how pollution etc directly effects their fishing. there is a similar argument for "eco" hunting by which I mean former or potential "poachers" becoming hunting "guides" for tourists who provide an alternate and consistent source of income.

The best way I can try to explain my "empathy" with animals is this.

Once upon a time quite long ago, I was a little "fish" in a "pond" swimming around with millions of my kind. Although I did not know it and I just did what I had to do, I was the one who made it just like you and you and you.

What I am trying to say is that if you look closely at the "human" life cycle it is more similar than different to "animals". what is an animal anyway its just a tag or label a way of describing assigned by a human, and that is the point. We are top of the food chain, we have the power of life or death over the planet itself and there for, have a responsibility to treat all nature with respect.
As for the nonsense about "mother nature" taking revenge or settling the score I don't see it happening, humans are too devious and cunning for that to happen, we are here to stay I just wish we would realise that it would be a better world if we took care of it and each other. Yes I am a tree hugger at heart

I would also compel you to research the emotional life of animals, especially that of the cephalopods, even ants are social creatures, we understand little about how such small brain size and power can result in such complex behaviours. The fact that pigs for example are demonstrably more intelligent than dogs and yet because of our culture if you farmed dogs for food in the same conditions as intensively reared hogs there would be uproar. I don't know which is more cruel to keep a chicken in a box with barely enough room to move or keeping a pig indoors in a concrete pen, imo they are both wrong but i suspect that because a pig is more "aware" it has a more miserable time? Until we can communicate more effectively with animals there is no way to answer this. That is why I want them to perfect lab grown meat because the "meat" would not have the capacity (brain/nervous system) for thought or suffering.

Finally I also like BACON and hate tofu and a lot of other things vegetarians are supposed to like, but I feel immense guilt when I eat intensively farmed meat and it taints the taste, I have little doubt that this is nocebo and in a blind test I could probably not tell the difference, however my emotions are strong enough for it to have a tangible effect, and since I have realised that even an animal reared responsibly will have to go to a main abattoir, even organic meat is now off my menu. (please bare in mind that I live in the concrete jungle [london] and the only "wild" meat available is venison or imported from other countries*)


*A market not too far away from where I live was caught selling all sorts of endangered "bush meat" like gorilla, I guess the public gets what the public wants, and I am from the nation of shopkeepers, but even I was surprised. here is an article about the illegal trade in london: A monkey species was eaten into extinction last year - the gorilla could be next | World news | The Observer

 

[pixelsmith]

well stated opinion Han.

 

[Muadib]

well stated opinion Han.

Indeed. That's a perspective on vegetarianism that I can understand, even if I don't posses the required empathy for all of our four legged friends to subscribe to it myself. Very nice post.

 

[TalkingMeatSuit]

Nice try O'Brien, but you ain't comin' between me and bacon!

 

[Christopher O'Brien]

Why? Are you telling us there's an aspect of social responsibility here that should compel us to boycott meat?

Who said anything about a boycott? I am merely suggesting that meat should be considered a privilege, not a right and that people should be educated as to the entire birth-to-death process. They show you pictures of horrible accidents in Driver's Ed to scare you into not drinking and driving, being extra careful, etc—same concept as I'm suggesting w/ a meat license. Ignorance is bliss and this approach would wake people up.

 

[Burnt State]

One holiday, as a teenager, I had to process many, many pounds of red meat for the BBQ and then cook it. I was completely grossed out by the experience and found that eating meat after that to be disturbing. Now, I like to eat meat and to fish, and eating what you caught is always a more rewarding meal. Hunters have a lot to teach us about our human history as carnivores. Pixel and Han have made very sound statements as did O'Brien in starting this thread. The meat industry is disturbing and speaks directly to our society's desire for convenience, privilege and disassociation.

Pixel's visceral description of gutting an animal is stuck in my brain as this is a vital human experience, if you are a carnivore, that many have had 'civilized' out of them. I regrettably count myself as someone raised on convenience in a family of non-hunters. Now I try to always buy my meat directly from the farmer whose farm I can visit with my children and point to the pig that we are going to get next year's bacon from, and then show them on a chart where on the pig's body the bacon resides. We meat eaters are too removed from natural processes. We now create life to kill and eat on such a mass scale that there are measureable environmental consequences. Humans are weird at best.

Killing is a strange part of who we are. I've been teaching my son target shooting with a bow and arrow. When I asked him about hunting he felt that if he had to kill something that maybe he could hunt squirrels or ducks; deer were out of the question. If he had the choice of hunting for his meat (his favourite part of any meal) or eating just vegetables - he chose the vegetarian lifestyle. Killing a four legged animal is just not in his nature, and as fish don't squeal, and swim away when you release them, I suspect he would just keep fishing. We've mostly lost that part of ourselves, for better or worse. I know I could teach him to hunt and kill but I, myself, am not prepared entirely to deal with those warm, bloody and pulsating organs.

 

[Randall]

Who said anything about a boycott? I am merely suggesting that meat should be considered a privilege, not a right and that people should be educated as to the entire birth-to-death process. They show you pictures of horrible accidents in Driver's Ed to scare you into not drinking and driving, being extra careful, etc—same concept as I'm suggesting w/ a meat license. Ignorance is bliss and this approach would wake people up.

A boycott is simply to cease or refuse to deal with something such as an organization, a company, or a process, as a protest against it and to force it to become more acceptable. Given what you're suggesting, it seems that if everyone were adequately "educated" then ceasing to be a consumer on the level you've depicted would be a responsible move. Or do you disagree with that? Because of this thread, you and @pixelsmith have made me stop buying from the mass distributors, at least temporarily, while I rethink my choices and perhaps find a local shop that does things more the way pixelsmith's guy does.

Using the recreational drug analogy, this would be analogous to finding some clean out of the way home grower who doesn't use all kinds of genetically altered stink-bud loaded with chemicals and isn't connected in any way to the violent criminal gangs and cartels. Even better if it were also from a place where it was legal. If I could get that, I might even go back to rolling my own once in while. But since it's not like that I don't bother even trying to find a dealer. I'm happier without it knowing I'm not contributing to the problem, and I could probably be happy avoiding big beef producers too. For milk we've already switched to almond milk. It's a bit more expensive, but it's good.

 

[stonehart]

Indeed. That's a perspective on vegetarianism that I can understand, even if I don't posses the required empathy for all of our four legged friends to subscribe to it myself. Very nice post.

I agree it is well stated.

But I do in fact like animals very much, I think they all taste great ........... sorry that was flippant I know but I could not resist.
Interesting perspective this thread but I will not be becoming a vegetarian in a hurry.

 

[chikane]

Here's an interesting look at a small part of the process of processing YOUR meat....
Purchasing and eating meat should be a licensed privilege. A mandatory three-day training should be enacted giving you a complete look at the process of getting the meat into your supermarket. Birth canal-to-plastic wrap. After a training/licensing process, I wonder how many people would become instant vegetarians... Here's a "taste" of how it's done in today's modern world... And this is the clinical Japanese version... the western version is much more bloody, dirty & disturbing.

I think a lot of the problems we're facing is due to our egocentric and materialistic state of mind : depletion of the ressources, pollution, global warming, animal condition...Basically we just see and treat every other creature like material to be exploited for our benefits regardless of its living condition and own interests.

It's also clear about meat. The caring of sentient beings is negated for profit and economics. So few care how animals are treated, partly because we aren't used anymore to the process of breeding and slaughterhouses have become restricted places few people have ever seen, but also because we don't want to know, because we may feel incomfortable then and may change our mind... I think this extreme industrialization of breeding and killing is just the barbary of the 21st century as were concentration camps in the 20st century. Charles Patterson has written a very nice book about it (eternal treblinka). This kind of film gives some hint onto a creepy reality that ought to be changed.

 

[Muadib]

On a side note, let's pretend that this was voted into law, are we then going to prosecute people who eat meat without a license? Do we really need more people in jail or prison for a silly ass crime like that? I mean, if you don't need a license to have a child, you shouldn't need a license to have a hamburger. I'm all for educating the masses, but I really don't think a licensing program is the way to go about it.

 

[Randall]

On a side note, let's pretend that this was voted into law, are we then going to prosecute people who eat meat without a license? Do we really need more people in jail or prison for a silly ass crime like that? I mean, if you don't need a license to have a child, you shouldn't need a license to have a hamburger. I'm all for educating the masses, but I really don't think a licensing program is the way to go about it.

Absolutely. Until people take on some personal responsibility for their choices they'll have to live with the consequences. That's punishment enough. So if I choose a lower quality product because it's convenient, then my penalty is not getting the same benefits guys like @pixelsmith or @Christopher O'Brien get by making more of an effort. Good enough. But supporting the idea that we should also get a lousy ticket on top of that is a rather draconian.

 

[Muadib]

Absolutely. Until people take on some personal responsibility for their choices they'll have to live with the consequences. That's punishment enough. So if I choose a lower quality product because it's convenient, then my penalty is not getting the same benefits guys like @pixelsmith or @Christopher O'Brien get by making more of an effort. Good enough. But supporting the idea that we should also get a lousy ticket on top of that is a rather draconian.

Not to mention that all of the new regulations will drive up the price of meat and it may inadvertently end up creating a new black market for people who either can't afford or don't want to bother with getting licensed to consume meat and we all know what happens with black market products that aren't subject to any level of control or standardization at all, and it's not pretty. It sounds to me like the whole licensing angle will create more problems than it solves...

 

[pixelsmith]

I think a lot of the problems we're facing is due to our egocentric and materialistic state of mind : depletion of the ressources, pollution, global warming, animal condition...Basically we just see and treat every other creature like material to be exploited for our benefits regardless of its living condition and own interests.

It's also clear about meat. The caring of sentient beings is negated for profit and economics. So few care how animals are treated, partly because we aren't used anymore to the process of breeding and slaughterhouses have become restricted places few people have ever seen, but also because we don't want to know, because we may feel incomfortable then and may change our mind... I think this extreme industrialization of breeding and killing is just the barbary of the 21st century as were concentration camps in the 20st century. Charles Patterson has written a very nice book about it (eternal treblinka). This kind of film gives some hint onto a creepy reality that ought to be changed.

Oh no... chikane, you said those two words.. "global warming"... everyone here knows those words will set me off and i will say this one thing about it... there has been NO warming for 17 years and the trend is actually leaning towards cooling right now. nuff said.

 

[mike]

Bacon lovers should try these

Bacon Style Rashers


They are very close to the real thing.

We always have some in the fridge here.

A typical big breakfast here is eggs from our own free range chooks, grilled tomato from our own garden, toast and a few slices of these.

They crisp up really well, and taste exactly the same as bacon

Of all the mock meat products on the market, and ive tried many of them, these are the best ive ever had in terms of taste and consistancy match.

 

[LeBombette]

To the various posts on hunting, here's my perspective from down South (Tennessee) and a family of hunters I can say that a whole lotta hunters in this state typically don't play by the rules and are not "good" hunters. In my hometown, spotlighting deer was a past time for most of the high school kids...boys and girls. I'm not against hunting at all, in a state like TN deer have few predators and can overpopulate and then starve in the winter. My grandfather was a very responsible hunter and fisherman and only ever took what he and his family would eat...and he loved animals. My Dad walked a fine line...he obeyed the rules, but stretched them to the limit. My brother stretches the rules just a tad bit more and his friends pretty much ignore them. On a side note, we have tons of bureaucracy involved in "hunting"...why, because us humans (or rather white folks) have a tendency to hunt things to extinction and not be good stewards of nature.

I've been a vegetarian for about 15 years now and I've heard every sort of cut-down, carnivore argument and joke that is possible...after all, my Dad always wore his special shirt for me at Christmas time - a t-shirt that had a picture of deer and said "Vegetarian is the Indian Word For Bad Hunter" and my family's accommodation to my diet is to serve chicken.

I chose to be vegetarian, for me it was easy and in this modern world I can do so easily, but since humans are omnivores I do believe we are meant to eat a little of everything. The key word being "little"...historically, (except for the very rich) meat has always been a side dish or seasoning and not a main dish. When you look at everything except veggies and beer...bread, sugar, meat, etc. we eat tons more than our ancestors ever did.

All that rambling to say...history has often proven that depending on people for moderation and intelligent thought isn't something I want to bet on, but I can't offer a better solution either and I don't think licensing is the way. If we're going to license then I want to tack on a license to have children, a cell phone, go to a restaurant and use a public restroom to the list - include all that and I'm for it!

 

[Solarion]

How do the meat factory workers on Christopher O Brian's video not suffer from mental and social breakdowns from slaughtering meat for all of us?

 

[chikane]

How do the meat factory workers on Christopher O Brian's video not suffer from mental and social breakdowns from slaughtering meat for all of us?

I believe you have to tell yourself "ok anyway someone has to do it..." (but is that really true?), or maybe it's the only job they can get. I read testimonies of people who have worked in abattoirs and didn't like it at all. Sometimes something happen that make them quit their job. Sometimes it's a particular, even brieve, interaction with an animal which makes them realize that these animals do really have feelings and a consciousness. After that, they just can't continue anymore.

 

[pixelsmith]

I believe you have to tell yourself "ok anyway someone has to do it..." (but is that really true?), or maybe it's the only job they can get. I read testimonies of people who have worked in abattoirs and didn't like it at all. Sometimes something happen that make them quit their job. Sometimes it's a particular, even brieve, interaction with an animal which makes them realize that these animals do really have feelings and a consciousness. After that, they just can't continue anymore.

I have known plenty of meat processors. Most of them can't get another job.
Once you have killed a large animal then gutted, butchered and ate it, you get desensitized a little. I always felt bad for killing an animal and always made sure I could kill the animal with one bullet.