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May 29, 2016 — Stanton T. Friedman

Instead of using up future show slots, bandwidth, and both hosts' and listeners' patience, can I suggest that we come up with a card game in lieu of any further Stanton Friedman interviews? The way it works is that you have two players, one playing Gene/Chris/any other erudite interviewer you may choose to be (you pick), and the other Stanton. The interviewer comes up with a thoughtful and difficult question, or nicks one from the Question Bank. The responder (Faux Stanton) then draws three cards from the deck, which are marked with certain words or phrases, and has to put these in any order they can to form a sentence in answer. The cards are marked:

"Crashed saucer"
"MJ12"
"In my book..."
"Mother ship"
"Nuclear propulsion"
"Nuclear physicist"
"Jesse Marcel"
"Canada!"
"I was the first to..."
"Zeta Reticuli"
"(laughing sound)"

...etc (other forum members may have ideas for more!)

We could make a PDF of the whole card set available as part of The Paracast+ package, to download, print, cut out and keep. It wouldn't take much in toner and paper because it wouldn't be a very big deck.

:rolleyes:
 
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I've got a few stantonisms

"Not all isotopes are fissionable, I don't care about those" etc

"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absense"

"It only takes one white crow"... Oh hang on, thats the hoagster.


Stanton Friedman's schtick is so old that
Ray Stanford sensed where it was and dug it up.
 
In addition to that, a report on Project Mogul by James McAndrew, 1st Lt. USAFR, states unequivocally that some debris from the Roswell Crash which Ramey had had shipped to Wright Field was positively identified as Mogul components by Colonel Duffy, a former project officer of Mogul*. This was definitely NOT an alien spaceship!

* see: Project Mogul

Interesting document. George, it sounds like you know Roswell a lot better than I do. It’s been years since I was following it closely.

In the document it says
“Based on the above, it appeared likely that the debris found by the rancher and was subsequently identified as a "flying disc" by personnel from Roswell AAF was, with a great degree of certainty, MOGUL flight no. 4, launched on June 4, 1947. “

Kevin Randle is now skeptical of a lot of the Roswell lore. However, on the show a couple weeks ago (at the 0:59 mark in Paracast+) he was emphatic that the documentation shows Mogul flight no. 4 was cancelled. I can’t say what documentation he was referring to, unless it’s what he describes in this 2007 blog A Different Perspective: There Was No Flight No. 4

I was wondering if you have any further thoughts on whether the Mogul flight was in fact cancelled.
 
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Instead of using up future show slots, bandwidth, and both hosts' and listeners' patience, can I suggest that we come up with a card game in lieu of any further Stanton Friedman interviews? The way it works is that you have two players, one playing Gene/Chris/any other erudite interviewer you may choose to be (you pick), and the other Stanton. The interviewer comes up with a thoughtful and difficult question, or nicks one from the Question Bank. The responder (Faux Stanton) then draws three cards from the deck, which are marked with certain words or phrases, and has to put these in any order they can to form a sentence in answer. The cards are marked:

"Crashed saucer"
"MJ12"
"In my book..."
"Mother ship"
"Nuclear propulsion"
"Nuclear physicist"
"Jesse Marcel"
"Canada!"
"I was the first to..."
"Zeta Reticuli"
"(laughing sound)"

...etc (other forum members may have ideas for more!)

*****************************************************************************************
:rolleyes:

That's a great idea and, let's face it, most of what we hear at UFO conferences and on Coast-to-Coast is pure UFOtainment. (If you are one of those annoying people who hopes to find "The Truth about the Flying Saucers" you should really go elsewhere --and The Paracast is a good place to start.) Stanton has been giving these lectures on Roswell for 30-odd years now and of course he has got the script off pat just like an old 78 rpm gramophone record. At 81 his memory for names is failing a bit and in Gene & Chris's interview he forgot the name of Frankie Rowe, the Roswell firefighter's daughter who has a part in the story.

A more interesting question which perhaps we should be asking now is "Who forged the MJ-12 documents?" The FBI have declared the documents to be "completely bogus". If you are a conspiracy theorist that's just more of the government cover up of "The Truth about the Flying Saucers".

So who exactly believes the MJ-12 documents are truthful and genuine? According to the Wikipedia entry on Majestic 12 "Ufologists Linda Moulton Howe and Stanton T Friedman believe the MJ-12 documents are authentic". There must be very few other researchers who do.

The documents were supposedly first sent to Jaime Shandera, Bill Moore and Stanton Friedman in 1984. Could it just be that Friedman and/or Moore produced the forgeries themselves? Certainly Friedman was someone who had a broad knowledge of all those persons who allegedly constituted the secret Majestic 12 committee in 1947 and the fiction contained in the documents is exactly what someone who was attempting to create the Roswell Myth might have written.

This is not an accusation but it is a possible scenario that we should consider.
 
Interesting document. George, it sounds like you know Roswell a lot better than I do. It’s been years since I was following it closely.

In the document it says
“Based on the above, it appeared likely that the debris found by the rancher and was subsequently identified as a "flying disc" by personnel from Roswell AAF was, with a great degree of certainty, MOGUL flight no. 4, launched on June 4, 1947. “

Kevin Randle is now skeptical of a lot of the Roswell lore. However, on the show a couple weeks ago (at the 0:59 mark in Paracast+) he was emphatic that the documentation shows Mogul flight no. 4 was cancelled. I can’t say what documentation he was referring to, unless it’s what he describes in this 2007 blog A Different Perspective: There Was No Flight No. 4

I was wondering if you have any further thoughts on whether the Mogul flight was in fact cancelled.
*****************************************************************************************
Sand,

Quite frankly Kevin Randall was WRONG. There most certainly was a Mogul Flight No. 4 and from such documentation as there is --and the testimony of Charles B Moore-- it seems evident that this was the flight that was launched on June 4th 1947 and was lost with its debris landing on the Foster Ranch about 70 miles from the launch site near Alamogordo, NM.

I have great respect for Kevin especially as during recent years he has disavowed much of the false information and alleged witness testimony that has been used to bolster the Roswell Myth. Like Stanton Friedman did to some extent, Kevin looked very carefully at some of characters responsible for various UFO/alien lore and disclaimed fraudsters like Robert Willingham and others (not that Willingham's tall stories related to Roswell). However, when the suggestion that the Roswell Crash may have been that of a Mogul balloon was first mooted all the leading Roswellists like Kevin were quick to deny this could even be a possibility. He must have realized that if one takes away the Roswell Crash story and demonstrates that all Major Jesse Marcel had been saying about it being the wreck of an ET flying saucer there is very little --if anything-- left. The whole edifice of the Roswell Myth would then collapse.

It was obviously a time for Roswellists to circle their wagons. Kevin and other Roswellists attacked the testimony of Charles B Moore who had been closely involved with Project Mogul. Moore had at some stage realized that the debris found on the Foster Ranch in July 1947 must be that of a Mogul balloon and he managed to identify that it was the missing Flight No. 4. He was labeled by Roswellians as a debunker and an archskeptic for having dared to question their insistence that it must have resulted from the crash of an ET flying saucer.

In fact Charles Moore was a good guy and he was just telling the truth. He was no debunker like Phil Klass or the Appalling Randi and somewhat ironically he had had an amazing UFO sighting of his own --as did several other Project Mogul personnel-- in 1949 when he was out at the balloon launch site near Alamogordo. This sighting in no way changed the fact that what fell out of the sky on the Foster Ranch near Roswell in June 1947 was the debris of a Mogul balloon. (see Wikipedia entry for Charles B Moore)
 
George, thanks. Very informative. I have to say Mogul seemed to make a lot of sense back when I first read Karl Pflock’s proposal of it.
 
I was of the understanding that Mogul Flight 4 did take place but came down in a canyon elsewhere? We all have our preferred Roswell theory of course; the powers in the know must be loving it, watching us still speculate, years on. For what it's worth, I go with it being an NBC warfare drone on test, meant for delivery of chemical/biological weapons or radioactive contaminant deep over the Soviet Union. It would explain why they were so keen to gather in all samples of the wreckage, had it had an active (albeit contained) payload on board. The British were testing similar equipment around the same time.
 
I was of the understanding that Mogul Flight 4 did take place but came down in a canyon elsewhere? We all have our preferred Roswell theory of course; the powers in the know must be loving it, watching us still speculate, years on. For what it's worth, I go with it being an NBC warfare drone on test, meant for delivery of chemical/biological weapons or radioactive contaminant deep over the Soviet Union. It would explain why they were so keen to gather in all samples of the wreckage, had it had an active (albeit contained) payload on board. The British were testing similar equipment around the same time.

I never heard that Mogul Flight 4 came down in a canyon some place and would be interested to hear who made that claim. Maybe one of the Roswellists anxious to dispel any suggestion that the crashed debris on the Foster Ranch was from anything other than an ET flying saucer?

I would be very surprised if anything like a NBC (nuclear, biological, chemical warfare) "drone" was being tested in the US in 1947. The only drones available then were conventional aircraft that were rigged to fly without a pilot and were generally used by the military for target practice. Radio remote control of weapons was extremely basic back then and there were no US drone aircraft which had anything like the range needed to reach the USSR. All military and scientific efforts to produce long range offensive weapons were focused on ICBMs and strategic bombers with nuclear weapon capability. The B-36 and B-47 (manned) long range bombers didn't fly until August 1946 and December 1947 respectively and the B-52 came much later in 1952. The first Atlas ICBM wasn't test fired until June 1957.

Of course both Joe Stalin and the Soviet military and, of course, the guys in the Pentagon were thinking, in 1947, of various long range methods of attacking each other with nuclear or chemical weapons. However such an explanation for what fell out of the sky at Roswell seems highly improbable to say the least. Annie Jacobsen's cockamamie story (in her book Area 51: An Uncensored History of America's Top Secret Military Base) that Joe Stalin in collusion with Nazi death-camp doctor Josef Mengele (of Auschwitz infamy) had conspired to fly children surgically altered to resemble aliens from Russia to New Mexico in order to hoax 'War of the Worlds-style' panic in the US is totally preposterous. I certainly sympathized with Stanton Friedman in his condemnation of Jacobsen's nonsense.

I believe that Nick Redfern proposed a similar ridiculous story to explain the Roswell Crash some years ago but this didn't mention Stalin or Mengele and instead pinned the blame on the US military who were said to have flown mentally subnormal kids in a remotely-controlled airplane through an atomic cloud as part of a supposed nuclear test. The dead kids allegedly found in the Roswell wreckage were supposedly what foolish folk had mistaken for little aliens. I think that Nick Redfern was told this story at a UFO conference by some dubious character who called himself Colonel X (or similar). The moral is, of course, never believe what one is told at UFO conferences --or through the internet-- especially if it comes from shady dudes who use bogus names like Colonel X !
 
I would be very surprised if anything like a NBC (nuclear, biological, chemical warfare) "drone" was being tested in the US in 1947. The only drones available then were conventional aircraft that were rigged to fly without a pilot and were generally used by the military for target practice. Radio remote control of weapons was extremely basic back then and there were no US drone aircraft which had anything like the range needed to reach the USSR. All military and scientific efforts to produce long range offensive weapons were focused on ICBMs and strategic bombers with nuclear weapon capability. The B-36 and B-47 (manned) long range bombers didn't fly until August 1946 and December 1947 respectively and the B-52 came much later in 1952. The first Atlas ICBM wasn't test fired until June 1957.
Long range drones did exist at that time, although maybe I'm stretching the modern use of the term so my apologies for spreading confusion. :) What I am talking about are helium-filled lighter-than-air or hybrid craft, like a blimp, meant for high altitude, long range, broad area NBC weapon delivery. Of course, that's something quite different from the unmanned B-17s etc that were trialled (mainly without success) during WWII. Vallee proposes such a lighter than air drone as a candidate for the Roswell debris in Revelations. Martin Cannon discusses both the drone hypothesis, plus the possibility that Mogul No.4 Flight crashed elsewhere than Roswell, on his website:

ROSWELL

In Britain, Churchill had had masses of sulphur mustard and sarin produced by 1941, ready to fend off the threatened German invasion, and drones (or "gliding bombs" as they were known) were being developed as potential delivery systems at Porton Down, the UK Ministry of Defence's chemical and bacteriological weapons research establishment. The Germans of course also had a cruise missile (the V1). All that technology was available to the Americans by 1947.
 
I think Stanton Friedman's answer regarding Jessie Marcel's "exaggeration problem" was good. I think it's one thing to exaggerate the number of hours "behind the wheel" on a plane and another to fabricate that you've handled wreckage of a type you've never seen before. He would have had to suddenly become ignorant of materials used in balloons to not recognize them when he saw them.
 
Long range drones did exist at that time, although maybe I'm stretching the modern use of the term so my apologies for spreading confusion. :) What I am talking about are helium-filled lighter-than-air or hybrid craft, like a blimp, meant for high altitude, long range, broad area NBC weapon delivery. Of course, that's something quite different from the unmanned B-17s etc that were trialled (mainly without success) during WWII. Vallee proposes such a lighter than air drone as a candidate for the Roswell debris in Revelations. Martin Cannon discusses both the drone hypothesis, plus the possibility that Mogul No.4 Flight crashed elsewhere than Roswell, on his website:

ROSWELL

In Britain, Churchill had had masses of sulphur mustard and sarin produced by 1941, ready to fend off the threatened German invasion, and drones (or "gliding bombs" as they were known) were being developed as potential delivery systems at Porton Down, the UK Ministry of Defence's chemical and bacteriological weapons research establishment. The Germans of course also had a cruise missile (the V1). All that technology was available to the Americans by 1947.

********************************************************************************************

If one was going to use a blimp (non-rigid airship) for long range weapon delivery it would surely have to have some small engine (propeller or turbojet) to fly it in the right direction in order to strike at one’s enemy. Otherwise it’s going to fly wherever the prevailing winds take it and that’s not really such a good idea if one’s delivering nuclear, biological or chemical weapons.

The Japanese did launch over 9,000 Fu-Go balloon weapons against America towards the end of World War II. These flew eastward from Japan across the Pacific in the 100 mph jetstream and each carried a 1,000-pound payload including a 33-pound fragmentation bomb plus several incendiary devices. Apparently only 284 of them were ever accounted for or recovered in the US or Canada. Seven were sighted here in Iowa. Although six people were killed by one such Fu-Go balloon that had fallen near Bly, OR, most did very little damage and do not appear to have started any forest fires. Whatever fell on the Foster Ranch near Roswell in June 1947 was definitely not a Fu-Go balloon.

The debris which Mac Brazel unexpectedly found on the Foster Ranch on June 14th 1947 certainly didn’t match a Fu-Go or anything made basically of metal like an airplane or a guided missile. Or for that matter, a supposed alien spaceship. It was primarily of light materials and Brazel and others mentioned rubber strips (possibly neoprene which is synthetic rubber), tinfoil, a rather tough paper and wooden sticks. Balsa wood, pieces of plastic and the 1940s equivalent of duck tape, some twine or fishing line (maybe nylon line?) were also said to have been found.

As described in the July 9 edition of the Roswell Daily Record:-

The balloon which held it up, if that was how it worked, must have been 12 feet long, [Brazel] felt, measuring the distance by the size of the room in which he sat. The rubber was smoky gray in color and scattered over an area about 200 yards in diameter. When the debris was gathered up, the tinfoil, paper, tape, and sticks made a bundle about three feet long and 7 or 8 inches thick, while the rubber made a bundle about 18 or 20 inches long and about 8 inches thick. In all, he estimated, the entire lot would have weighed maybe five pounds. There was no sign of any metal in the area which might have been used for an engine, and no sign of any propellers of any kind, although at least one paper fin had been glued onto some of the tinfoil. There were no words to be found anywhere on the instrument, although there were letters on some of the parts. Considerable Scotch tape and some tape with flowers printed upon it had been used in the construction. No strings or wires were to be found but there were some eyelets in the paper to indicate that some sort of attachment may have been used.


To claim, like Major Jesse Marcel and later Roswellists like Stanton Friedman have done that this was the remains of a crashed ET flying saucer is frankly ludicrous. Apart from Marcel everyone who actually visited the site like Brazel had little doubt that the debris had come from some sort of balloon(s). However the debris was spread out in clusters over 200 yards and certainly didn’t look as if it was from a single weather balloon.

Many years later when the Mogul balloon solution first surfaced opponents of that explanation seemed unaware that Mogul tests usually involved large clusters of rubber meteorological balloons or else, later, a train of large polyethylene balloons strung together. This would explain why the wreckage found on the Foster Ranch was spread out 200 yards or more. Roswellists, who insisted on an ET solution to the crash, contended that Mogul tests each involved just a single Mogul balloon --and therefore that couldn’t possibly explain all the debris. They were quite simply wrong in this assumption.

A further clincher that the Roswell debris came from a Mogul balloon train is the tape with flowers printed on it that was mentioned in the Roswell Daily Record item copied above. Project Mogul engineer and scientist Charles Moore remembers buying and using just such tape to attach various items together for several of the Mogul balloon test flights. He described this basic flower pattern on the tape as being mauve and quite distinctive. Years later Marcel and Friedman claimed that this pattern showed a row of alien symbols which clearly denoted the extraterrestrial origin of the Roswell debris.
 
********************************************************************************************

If one was going to use a blimp (non-rigid airship) for long range weapon delivery it would surely have to have some small engine (propeller or turbojet) to fly it in the right direction in order to strike at one’s enemy. Otherwise it’s going to fly wherever the prevailing winds take it and that’s not really such a good idea if one’s delivering nuclear, biological or chemical weapons.

The Japanese did launch over 9,000 Fu-Go balloon weapons against America towards the end of World War II. These flew eastward from Japan across the Pacific in the 100 mph jetstream and each carried a 1,000-pound payload including a 33-pound fragmentation bomb plus several incendiary devices. Apparently only 284 of them were ever accounted for or recovered in the US or Canada. Seven were sighted here in Iowa. Although six people were killed by one such Fu-Go balloon that had fallen near Bly, OR, most did very little damage and do not appear to have started any forest fires. Whatever fell on the Foster Ranch near Roswell in June 1947 was definitely not a Fu-Go balloon.

The debris which Mac Brazel unexpectedly found on the Foster Ranch on June 14th 1947 certainly didn’t match a Fu-Go or anything made basically of metal like an airplane or a guided missile. Or for that matter, a supposed alien spaceship. It was primarily of light materials and Brazel and others mentioned rubber strips (possibly neoprene which is synthetic rubber), tinfoil, a rather tough paper and wooden sticks. Balsa wood, pieces of plastic and the 1940s equivalent of duck tape, some twine or fishing line (maybe nylon line?) were also said to have been found.

As described in the July 9 edition of the Roswell Daily Record:-

The balloon which held it up, if that was how it worked, must have been 12 feet long, [Brazel] felt, measuring the distance by the size of the room in which he sat. The rubber was smoky gray in color and scattered over an area about 200 yards in diameter. When the debris was gathered up, the tinfoil, paper, tape, and sticks made a bundle about three feet long and 7 or 8 inches thick, while the rubber made a bundle about 18 or 20 inches long and about 8 inches thick. In all, he estimated, the entire lot would have weighed maybe five pounds. There was no sign of any metal in the area which might have been used for an engine, and no sign of any propellers of any kind, although at least one paper fin had been glued onto some of the tinfoil. There were no words to be found anywhere on the instrument, although there were letters on some of the parts. Considerable Scotch tape and some tape with flowers printed upon it had been used in the construction. No strings or wires were to be found but there were some eyelets in the paper to indicate that some sort of attachment may have been used.


To claim, like Major Jesse Marcel and later Roswellists like Stanton Friedman have done that this was the remains of a crashed ET flying saucer is frankly ludicrous. Apart from Marcel everyone who actually visited the site like Brazel had little doubt that the debris had come from some sort of balloon(s). However the debris was spread out in clusters over 200 yards and certainly didn’t look as if it was from a single weather balloon.

Many years later when the Mogul balloon solution first surfaced opponents of that explanation seemed unaware that Mogul tests usually involved large clusters of rubber meteorological balloons or else, later, a train of large polyethylene balloons strung together. This would explain why the wreckage found on the Foster Ranch was spread out 200 yards or more. Roswellists, who insisted on an ET solution to the crash, contended that Mogul tests each involved just a single Mogul balloon --and therefore that couldn’t possibly explain all the debris. They were quite simply wrong in this assumption.

A further clincher that the Roswell debris came from a Mogul balloon train is the tape with flowers printed on it that was mentioned in the Roswell Daily Record item copied above. Project Mogul engineer and scientist Charles Moore remembers buying and using just such tape to attach various items together for several of the Mogul balloon test flights. He described this basic flower pattern on the tape as being mauve and quite distinctive. Years later Marcel and Friedman claimed that this pattern showed a row of alien symbols which clearly denoted the extraterrestrial origin of the Roswell debris.
I'd be happy with a Mogul balloon train as culprit as well, George. Neither of us know for sure, at the end of the day, but we are agreed at least that we believe it to have been something military and terrestrial.

What we have ultimately is a lot of (nigh-on) seventy year old he-said-she-said and no physical evidence in the public domain, so every hypothesis is necessarily speculative and carries that uncertainty as a caveat. Conversely, Friedman's blind refusal even to discuss any contrary evidence to his crashed saucer theory (most recently on The Paracast two shows back) says to me that the man at best is beyond debating with rationally given how long he's been immersed in the subject, and at worst has been knowingly peddling us ufological snake oil since the MJ-12 stuff came curiously to light.
 
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I'd be happy with a Mogul balloon train as culprit as well, George. Neither of us know for sure, at the end of the day, but we are agreed at least that we believe it to have been something military and terrestrial.

What we have ultimately is a lot of (nigh-on) seventy year old he-said-she-said and no physical evidence in the public domain, so every hypothesis is necessarily speculative and carries that uncertainty as a caveat. Conversely, Friedman's blind refusal even to discuss any contrary evidence to his crashed saucer theory (most recently on The Paracast two shows back) says to me that the man at best is beyond debating with rationally given how long he's been immersed in the subject, and at worst has been knowingly peddling us ufological snake oil since the MJ-12 stuff came curiously to light.

*****************************************************************************************

Ufological snake oil is certainly what large numbers of us UFO folk have been receiving from Stanton Friedman and other Roswellists over the last 35 years. I’ve listened to Stan’s lectures many times over and whenever I started to doubt the Roswell story he would persuasively refute anyone who questioned the 1947 crash or suggested it could be anything other than an ET flying saucer that had fallen from the sky. I guess that during the 1990s, the 2000s, and even today many of the American “UFO community” desperately want to believe in ET visitation of this planet and they regard the naysayers as heretical liars. The UFO faithful were always being assured that any denial of the Roswell incident was a wicked government conspiracy to cover up the truth about UFOs and aliens.

Yet twenty years ago the actual truth about Roswell was being discussed by a few people who had researched the matter and who had found massive flaws in the ET saucer crash story. Rather than listening to Stanton Friedman and Bill Moore and Kevin Randle we should have listened to Karl Pflock and Charles Moore (no relation of Bill Moore) --both of whom are now sadly dead. I had heard about the top secret Project Mogul back in the 1990s but knew little of its connection with the Roswell crash and never read anything about it that was written by skeptics.

Yesterday I had a eureka moment as regards Roswell. After much googling for Project Mogul, Karl Pflock and Charles B Moore I came across the following 1995 special report by Dave Thomas The Roswell Incident and Project Mogul which was publisher in the Skeptical Inquirer (July / August 1995): The Roswell Incident and Project Mogul - CSI

“The Truth is Out There" indeed – and now at last I felt I’d found it! I read the report very carefully and I was left in very little doubt that the missing Mogul Flight #4 launched from near Alamogordo on June 4, 1947 was the true source of the debris found by Mac Brazel on the Foster ranch. This balloon train, about 600 feet long and consisting of 23 neoprene sounding balloons plus three radar reflectors and a sonobuoy instrument package had risen more or less vertically into the sky, drifted away northeast towards El Kapitan Mountain and Arabela, NM, and then vanished. The batteries had failed after a few hours aloft and contact with Alamogordo was lost when it was somewhere near Arabela –that is, about 17 miles short of the Foster ranch.

Everything in the report is consistent with what was reported by Brazel, Marcel and others with very few exceptions. Some Roswellists such as Kevin Randle try to make the very dubious case that no Flight #4 was ever launched. Others maintain it was launched but went down in a deep canyon and so was presumably never found since the wreckage might not have been visible from the air. Therefore, they say, what was found by Brazel was not Mogul and must have been the wreck of a flying saucer or alien spaceship.

It is evident that Stanton Friedman or Jesse Marcel or other Roswellists anxious to make the ET crash case have altered some of the evidence to suit their version of what happened. Bill Moore claimed there had been 10-inch deep furrows running for 500 feet gouged out at the crash site when the alien spacecraft supposedly came down. This was patently untrue and no witness who was there ever reported such a thing. The Roswell Incident (1980) by Bill Moore and Charles Berlitz (plus much input from Stanton Friedman) claims that two Roswell residents, Dan Wilmot and his wife, saw a flying saucer pass overhead on July 2 and suggests this may have lead to Brazel going out on the ranch to see what might have fallen from the sky. That is how he supposedly found the debris. In fact, Brazel came across the debris field on the ranch on June 14 and did nothing about it until he went back there about three weeks later. He collected some debris which he took into Roswell to show the sheriff. It appears he did this only after there had been much publicity about flying saucers in the media and in particular Kenneth Arnold’s dramatic flying saucer sighting over Mount Rainier on June 24, 1947. The Roswell Incident maintains Brazel was kept in custody for two or more days and grilled by AF intelligence officers after which his carefully orchestrated testimony was given to the press saying a mundane object like a weather balloon had landed on the ranch. There is no evidence Brazel was treated in this way.

Dave Thomas’s report includes a diagram of a Mogul balloon train similar to the one lost on Flight #4. The train is about 600 feet long --the same as the length of the scattered debris field on the ranch-- and the diagram divides it into three parts: the top end is on the right, the center part in the middle and the lower end of the train on the left. (It’s extremely difficult to make out the tiny print used to label the Mogul components even when the diagram is enlarged and one has to wonder whether David Rudiak’s skills at supposedly deciphering General Ramey’s mysterious Roswell crash memo might have been put to better use here.)

In any case read this report, The Roswell Incident and Project Mogul, and I bet you’ll never think the same way about Roswell again. One really has to wonder whether Stanton Friedman, Bill Moore, Kevin Randle and other Roswellists ever read this 1995 report and, if they did, whether they truly continued to believe their ET version of events after that. Publicly I expect some of them might say the report --and all that Karl Pflock and Charles Moore were saying then— was just more of the alleged government cover-up.

[Sorry, Gerasmus, I'm not quite finished yet!]
 
Some random thoughts about the episode in brief:
  • Mr. Friedman is being criticized for sticking to his story and using the same anecdotes. Why would he not stick to what he believes based on his research (although I do not agree with him, I respect that he sticks to what he is convinced of and does not change due to pressure or chance of profit).
  • Why would anyone expect the military to investigate whether there might be harmful levels of radiation or microbes when investigating the crash site? Was that a standard protocol in 1947 before the modern UFO flap really began? Investigating those things would be out of context with the times. Unless, of course, the investigators had a real idea of what crashed. We are looking back at that time in today's eyes.
Peace
 
George thank you for your comments, this has certainly been a lively discussion. I could see you have put a lot of effort in your answers and done research! Thank you for posting the links, I will be doing some reading myself.

Regards,
Willem
 
I do not think an interstellar spacecraft crashed at Roswell.

Generally speaking, I could accept the Mogul explanation.

My lack of confidence in a pure Mogul explanation has to do with Blanchard's order for media publicity.

For the record, Blanchard's order for publicity is, IMHO, even more ridiculous if he really thought they had recovered some sort of interplanetary vehicle.

The 1952 film, Above and Beyond, dramatizes Col. Tibbets and the lead up to, and accomplishment of, the Hiroshima strike. The film is a dramatization, but it clearly presents a stifling secrecy culture for the 509th. IMHO, every Roswell researcher or buff should be required to see this film. From what I've read, including at Wiki, Blanchard was backup for Tibbets and would have flown the Hiroshima strike if Tibbets had been grounded for any reason.
In the climaxing phase of World War II, then Colonel Blanchard was directed to prepare and supervise the detailed operations order for the delivery of the first atomic bomb on Hiroshima. He was the backup pilot for the Hiroshima A-bomb drop, which was ultimately delivered by Colonel Paul W. Tibbets, Commanding Officer of the 509th Atomic Bombardment Group or Wing.

So I seriously question a "Gomer Pyle" type SNAFU by West Point graduate, and highly competent commander, Wm. Blanchard, of taking personal initiative to publicize the recovery of any strange debris. Blanchard was committed to a culture of secrecy, and there does not seem to be any reason to be in such a damned hurry to publicize the recovery trash that, based on the photos in Ramey's office, looked pretty much like any ordinary kind of humanly manufactured material available in those days. It would certainly seem to me that Blanchard would have considered the possibility that the debris was from a classified US device of some sort. So why publicize it?

However, US intel was certainly interested in what the Soviets were up to. The link above that George gives to the Dave Thomas The Roswell Incident and Project Mogul article says the whole point of Mogul was to monitor Soviet atomic testing:
The Mogul project was so classified and compartmentalized that even Moore didn’t know the project’s name until Robert Todd informed him of it a couple of years ago. The unclassified purpose of the project was to develop constant-level balloons for meteorological purposes.

Its classified purpose was to try to develop a way to monitor possible Soviet nuclear detonations with the use of low-frequency acoustic microphones placed at high altitudes. No other means of monitoring the nuclear activities of a closed country like the USSR was yet available, and the project was given a high priority. One of the NYU tasks was the development of constant-level balloons for placing the acoustic microphones aloft. After some preliminary flights in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, in April 1947, which failed due to high winds, the project moved to New Mexico.

In June and early July 1947, numerous NYU balloon flights were launched from Alamogordo Army Air Field in New Mexico.

So according to this article, by 1947 the US was concerned that the Soviets were developing, or possibly had developed an a-bomb.

In addition, the Soviets had been "given" three B-29s during WWII when the aircrews were unable to return to US bases, but landed instead at their "ally's" bases in the USSR. The B-29 was among the most advanced aircraft of the day and provided the Soviets their own long-range atomic bomber (though the three that they had acquired were conventional, not Silverplate B-29's). The Soviets flew their first TU-4 clone of the B-29 in the spring or early summer of 1947. It seems certain to me that Blanchard and higher ups in the USAF would have been deeply concerned that Soviet agents would monitor operations of the 509th at Roswell to collect any info they could on B-29 operations, as well as any atomic information they could acquire.

As I understand the timeline of events, it seems likely that Marcel's B-29 had just taken off from Roswell heading for Fort Worth with samples of the debris when Blanchard ordered media publicity of the debris. One might note that flying a paltry box of debris in a freaking Silverplate B-29 is not the most effective use of tax-payer money, as transport planes are more economical. But such a flight would make a splash on any Soviet agents monitoring Roswell.

Furthermore, IMHO it would be highly unlikely for Blanchard to have sent Marcel in a B-29 to Fort Worth without first coordinating with the superior officer that Marcel was going to report to, General Ramey. In other words, Blanchard and Ramey would have been in phone contact prior to Marcel ever getting off the ground. If for nothing else, just to make sure that Ramey would be in his office when Marcel arrived.

So, all this background leads me to speculate that the Roswell "event" may have been some sort of counter intel operation, with humanly manufactured mundane debris planted in an isolated field, in order to shake up Soviet agents in the US, and then to try to track their communications by looking for "flying disc" or something similar. Perhaps only Ramey and Blanchard knew about it, and perhaps all other 509th personnel were in the dark about it. Maybe. Or maybe not.

While I did arrive at this possible explanation before I'd become aware of James Carrion, or that he'd also proposed a similar view, I'll mention him for first making this idea public, as far as I know. On the other hand, I am not convinced by Carrion's Ghost Rocket "Rosetta" theory. There were too many Ghost Rocket reports and were too widespread, IMHO.
 
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I listened to this episode in the end and Stan was actually a lot better than expected.

If Roswell was a saucer and those involved were told not to speak out it might make sense that we have no testimony other than a few key players. But if there was a terrestrial explanation, I find it strange that nobody just came out and said so when the story first broke in the 70s / 80s.

I guess if this had been a secret experiment then people might feel loyalty and obliged to keep their oath. The cold war was still very much alive and they may have felt telling the truth about Roswell would be aiding the enemy.

I think we are really too late to find even a mundane truth as those who know are gone.
 
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Some random thoughts about the episode in brief:
  • Mr. Friedman is being criticized for sticking to his story and using the same anecdotes. Why would he not stick to what he believes based on his research (although I do not agree with him, I respect that he sticks to what he is convinced of and does not change due to pressure or chance of profit).
  • Why would anyone expect the military to investigate whether there might be harmful levels of radiation or microbes when investigating the crash site? Was that a standard protocol in 1947 before the modern UFO flap really began? Investigating those things would be out of context with the times. Unless, of course, the investigators had a real idea of what crashed. We are looking back at that time in today's eyes.
Peace
Both points are exactly what I was thinking when listening to the critique of Stanton Friedman's appearance on the show. With regards to the second point, our genial hosts have been on this Roswell crash radiation/alien microbes kick for a few weeks now with the guests and I find it to be a complete red herring. Let's not forget that during 1951-1957 the US Army repeatedly exploded nuclear bombs (Operation Desert Rock) over the Nevada desert with active duty military closely positioned within the radioactive fallout zone, with thousands being exposed to high levels of radiation, with radioactive fallout even drifting downwind to populated areas, including Las Vegas. One crazy test in 1957 5 soldiers were positioned directly UNDER a 2-kiloton nuclear explosion (18,500ft) from a missile fired from an F-89 jet. There is actually a video of this nuclear test online. Does this sound like the military scientific establishment of the time (and as much as a decade later) fully understood the serious ramifications on human health of radioactive fallout exposure? So this talk of the 1940s-era US Army being prepared with radiation detectors and alien microbe detectors is ludicrous, and also assumes that when they were retrieving crash debris that they knew what it even was to begin with. Let's move on from this ridiculous argument.
 
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