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March 22nd / interview with Mike C!

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Hilarious...
The 1960 (!) article you cite actually mentions a FAILURE of an experiment to do just what you say hypnosis does. You do read these things, right?

You are wise to post this here. The hatred here for skeptics (or maybe just me!) and their know-it-all ways must be comforting. Just don't fool youself into thinking that you made any sort of rational argument in your post. It was sad, really.

Yes, words are easy to say. But they don't have to reflect reality, and they don't have to have any content.

I have no hatred for skeptics, and in my opinion you give yourself way too much credit by considering yourself one. You don't provide information, you just use debate tactics.

In the interest of correcting your false information, here is one relevant quote from the article I cited, which you claim describes a FAILURE:

---

"As the patrolmen moved along in the four-stage test, their ability to recall events improved surprisingly. Dr. Gerber and Dr. Levendula compared the two written reports so there would be no chance of a mix-up, the one before hypnosis had been written on white paper, the other, after hypnosis, on blue paper. The doctors found that the results were remarkable.

Before he was hypnotized, Patrolman Foster Lockhart wrote that the weapon “looked like a screwdriver.” But after hypnosis, he remembered that the instrument had a red handle,”which was correct. He also was able to recall another important fact that he hadn’t before,” there was a faint scar on the blonde’s upper lip. He now remembered, too, that when she collapsed, “she put her head on the arm of the sofa.” That was right.

Patrolman Anthony R. Lutz, in his first try, said the crime was committed with an “unknown instrument.” However, when he awoke from hypnosis, he wrote: “The dark-haired girl pulled from her purse an object that looked like it was rounded on the end and circular throughout, because the cap which fits over the end of the wooden handle appeared to be round. I did not see the blade, but I caught a reflection of light, which leads me to believe that it was either highly polished, or plated. This object looked like it was about seven inches in overall length.” A pretty good description."

---

So you say I don't think rationally. Maybe I don't, so here's your opportunity to prove it rather than just making baseless claims.

To support the argument that a process *can fail* to create certain results, all you have to do is provide examples where this process has failed.

The ONLY information you've provided supports the above argument, and I don't disagree with it. I'm not disagreeing that hypnosis can fail to recover buried memories.

But to support the argument that a process *cannot under any circumstances* create certain results, you must go a little further. You must also explain the mechanics of how and why. You have not done this at any point.

All you're doing in the case of hypnosis is citing experiments where the recovery of memories has failed.

There are MANY reasons that an experiment can fail to produce a certain result, which is why the failure alone cannot prove that a process *cannot* produce that result.

On the other hand, to prove that a process *can* produce a result, all you have to do is produce the result from that process. I've provided many examples of this.

I've not argued that the process will always produce the desired result, just that it can.

Spelling everything out for you is pretty ridiculous, but I'm pressing because perhaps I'm wrong and you actually have some information that I don't have. Seems kinda absurd at this point that you wouldn't have shown it, though.

So please, if you have information that actually supports your argument that hypnosis CANNOT recover buried memories, please present it. If you're unable to support this argument, then we have nothing to argue about and let's please go on to another topic.
 
Oh wicro, I know you save all the snide comments for me! And never a disparaging word for believer nonsense.


Lance, its the same reason I don't go onto a psychology message board and start posting why all psychology is 'crap'. I respect the opinions of others and don't pretend to have all the 'answers'. And I'm sorry if I have offended you by pointing out your 'debating style' is a bit confrontational.
 
Hi Brandon, >snip< I think I was much nicer in this post, no?

Lance

/cheer! That didn't hurt now did it!?

Loftus and Palemrs work has showed us how pliable even 'normal' memory is. The classic 'automobile' experiment has been replicated (including by myself and probably every undergraduate in the social sciences) to certainly make eye witness testimony a contentious issue never mind 'recovered memory's'. More recently she was even demonstrated that childhood memory can be inserted with reasonable ease which further clouds the issue see for instance : http://faculty.washington.edu/eloftus/Articles/sciam.htm.

Although the usual criticisms about unrepresentative samples, ethnocentric point of view etc, her work certainly makes interesting reading.
 
Hi Brandon,
It was you that said the it was an established fact that hypnosis can elicit recovered lost memories. For something to be established (at least to my dubious standards) it needs to have evidence behind it.

Your recounting of some anecdotal events (like the policeman one) is not scientific and it's not really evidence. If we can't agree on that then we should probably stop arguing.
Lance

I did mention anecdotal evidence.

I also cited several documented cases of memories being recovered through hypnosis, which were then confirmed as factual memories.

Exactly as you cited documented cases of false memories being recovered.

It does not matter that the study I cited is older than the one you cited. The study you cited does not use any special technology or new techniques that weren't available several decades ago. There is nothing new in your study, just different results.

Now let's look at the quote you referenced from the expert in the field: "recovered memories are not reliable, and they are often false".

Even this authority you cite can only claim "often false". Which means "sometimes true". This is the best that even an arch-skeptic can claim.

And not only that, but that statement can equally be used to describe *ordinary* memory! And no one is arguing that ordinary memory is some sort of hoax.

Hypnotically-retrieved memories have been documented to (on some occasions) retrieved buried memories that have been verified to be accurate. How do you explain the cases where consciously inaccessible memories have been accurately retrieved?
 
Really, the definitive work is:

The myth of repressed memory : false memories and allegations of sexual abuse
by Elizabeth F Loftus; Katherine Ketcham

Loftus is considered the leading scientist in the field.

My mouth dropped open when I saw that you were really citing this.

There are all kinds of allegations about the False Memory Syndrome Foundation and its motives, particularly its connections to pedophilia and the CIA. The FMSF's Wikipedia page goes into some of it (and anyone interested in UFOs already knows that Wikipedia is, if anything, conservative to a fault). You can find more information, of widely varying quality, about the FMSF elsewhere on the Internet.

Something else worth considering: who funds these studies we've been citing as if they're holy gospel? The truth is, we don't know. We talk about scientific research as if it is done in a vacuum, but all research requires funding. We've all heard of bogus environmental studies paid for by oil companies, for instance. Whether you're a scientist or not, who bought your train ticket is a big factor in which stop you'll be getting off at.

As of the 1960's, at least half of all university social science research (this includes psychology) was demonstrably government-funded, whether directly or through front organizations. Anyone who thinks that this has changed is being naive. The FMSF is most likely government-funded, and let's just say that the government's interest in psychology is probably less than entirely benevolent. Look at the goings-on at Guantanamo Bay for suggestive evidence of this.

What this all means, I don't know. But it's certainly worth keeping in mind.
 
We talk about scientific research as if it is done in a vacuum, but all research requires funding. We've all heard of bogus environmental studies paid for by oil companies, for instance. Whether you're a scientist or not, who bought your train ticket is a big factor in which stop you'll be getting off at.
For a fee, I'll tell you what you really think.
 
While some might want to this to continue, it seems that there is no room for any level of consent between the two camps. While I'm certainly someone who recognizes the critical importance of science and the scientific method, I'm also able to recognize the simple fact that our current understanding of the workings of the human mind is an incomplete as our understanding of the Universe. And with those words, I hope everyone does indeed understand why it makes sense to lock this thread.

dB
 
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