July 14, 2019 — Nick Redfern

[RustyShackleford]

This is one of those interesting examples of how a statement can be true or false depending on context. The context I was working in was: Because the documents received by William were actual physical documents rather than something on film, if they were genuine, they must have been created earlier than the film Shandera got ( logically ), and the inference I got from William was that the original source was someone in the military who had possessed them for a substantial amount of time. But I still think that running the numbers like you did on actual dates for the chain of custody was sensible thing to do. It forced me to have to look at the issue from a completely different perspective. Always good. Thanks!

Thanks Randall, I think I see where your coming from now.

I must admit, I'm not really convinced by William's MJ 12 documents (nor am I by Shandera's). This is mainly due to the unusual circumstances in which they are alleged to have come into his source's possession.

Why would someone who has stolen Top Secret UFO documents give them to a complete stranger who has no interest in UFOs (this is what William's website states).

Also, if 'H' received the documents from a stranger, then how does he know this individual spent anytime in the military?

I'm afraid I just don't find this credible.

 

[RustyShackleford]

And didn’t Bill Moore admit to lying about the Benowitz affair at about the same time?

I wouldn’t believe Bill Moore about much of anything. In fact, if you want me to not believe something, have Bill Moore say it.

I think you're referring to Moore's infamous 1989 speech at the MUFON convention in Las Vegas, where he stated he'd been reporting to the AFOSI on the activities of fellow researchers and stayed silent whilst disinformation started to spread amongst the UFO community.

I know Moore isn't a very popular figure in Ufology, but I think he's had something of a 'bad press' and been treated a little unfairly. Yes he worked with AFOSI, but which of us, if given the same opportunity as Moore (i.e. give AFOSI some information on other researchers in return for the governments UFO secrets) would have done the same? I'd like to think I wouldn't but maybe the temptation would be too great.

Controversy aside, I think Moore is a very important figure in the world of Ufology. After all, for a period of time, he was on the inside, observing how the American intelligence services operated and how they handled the UFO subject. This would give him an almost unique perspective on the UFO subject.

In fact, I'd love for him to be a guest on the Paracast as I'm sure there's still plenty of things he has yet to make public about his time working with AFOSI/other agencies. How about it, Randall and Gene? Have you ever tried to get Moore on? I know he's retired from the field so would probably never agree to it but I'd be interested to know what his response was if you've ever tried to get him on.

 

[Randall]

How about it, Randall and Gene? Have you ever tried to get Moore on? I know he's retired from the field so would probably never agree to it but I'd be interested to know what his response was if you've ever tried to get him on.

I have no idea how to approach Moore, and no time to dig for and try to convince people who don't want to be involved. But if you can come-up with contact info, pass it along, and we'll at least send out an invite. Guests are getting much harder to pin down because so many of them are doing their own podcasts now that they don't need shows like The Paracast to be heard.

 

[Farlig Gulstein]

Greg Bishop said that he was "friends" with Moore for twenty years, and in the comments section of a post from 2012, Greg says that Moore was not responding to his emails and calls then at that time. The "interview" with Moore that Greg posted was from 2006.

 

[marduk]

I think you're referring to Moore's infamous 1989 speech at the MUFON convention in Las Vegas, where he stated he'd been reporting to the AFOSI on the activities of fellow researchers and stayed silent whilst disinformation started to spread amongst the UFO community.

I know Moore isn't a very popular figure in Ufology, but I think he's had something of a 'bad press' and been treated a little unfairly. Yes he worked with AFOSI, but which of us, if given the same opportunity as Moore (i.e. give AFOSI some information on other researchers in return for the governments UFO secrets) would have done the same? I'd like to think I wouldn't but maybe the temptation would be too great.

Controversy aside, I think Moore is a very important figure in the world of Ufology. After all, for a period of time, he was on the inside, observing how the American intelligence services operated and how they handled the UFO subject. This would give him an almost unique perspective on the UFO subject.

In fact, I'd love for him to be a guest on the Paracast as I'm sure there's still plenty of things he has yet to make public about his time working with AFOSI/other agencies. How about it, Randall and Gene? Have you ever tried to get Moore on? I know he's retired from the field so would probably never agree to it but I'd be interested to know what his response was if you've ever tried to get him on.

Yes, that’s the one, but I believe he also admitted to actively lying about things in order to get classified information or some such thing. Maybe I read it in Bishop’s Project Beta.

At any rate, I’ve read enough to know that Moore is a deceptive con artist only out for himself, and I personally would not be interested in anyone giving him a platform for anything. He could tell me the sky is blue, and I’d start to doubt it.

Why inject more noise into the signal?

 

[RustyShackleford]

Yes, that’s the one, but I believe he also admitted to actively lying about things in order to get classified information or some such thing. Maybe I read it in Bishop’s Project Beta.

At any rate, I’ve read enough to know that Moore is a deceptive con artist only out for himself, and I personally would not be interesested in anyone giving him a platform for anything. He could tell me the sky is blue, and I’d start to doubt it.

Why inject more noise into the signal?

I guess the answer to your question is, it depends on what you're trying to achieve.

If you're looking for the answer to the 64, 000 dollar question: what are UFOs? Then I can understand why you may not necessarily want to hear anything from Moore. You may think 'time is limited, so why waste it speaking to someone who I'm not sure I can 100% trust'.

However, if like me, you want to try and establish who fabricated the MJ 12 documents, then, given Moore was part of the research team that first received and published the documents and he had connections to US intelligence, Moore is someone you'd certainly want to speak to.

I'm not saying I'd take everthing he says at face value. Like any good researcher, I'd take what he says, and then compare it against other sources that both support and contradict Moore's information, evaluate it all and come up with a reasoned opinion, which I'd happily re-evaluate if new information were ever presented.

Unfortunately I think this discussion is somewhat academic given Moore's decision to leave the field many years ago.

 

[marduk]

I guess the answer to your question is, it depends on what you're trying to achieve.

If you're looking for the answer to the 64, 000 dollar question: what are UFOs? Then I can understand why you may not necessarily want to hear anything from Moore. You may think 'time is limited, so why waste it speaking to someone who I'm not sure I can 100% trust'.

However, if like me, you want to try and establish who fabricated the MJ 12 documents, then, given Moore was part of the research team that first received and published the documents and he had connections to US intelligence, Moore is someone you'd certainly want to speak to.

I'm not saying I'd take everthing he says at face value. Like any good researcher, I'd take what he says, and then compare it against other sources that both support and contradict Moore's information, evaluate it all and come up with a reasoned opinion, which I'd happily re-evaluate if new information were ever presented.

Unfortunately I think this discussion is somewhat academic given Moore's decision to leave the field many years ago.

What I'm trying to achieve first and foremost is "what have I experienced?"

With a close follow up of "How do these things work, because humanity would vastly benefit from having the ability to get off of this rock."

 

[RustyShackleford]

For anyone that may be interested, I have managed to track down the Observer MJ-12 article that Nick mentioned on this show.

The article just talks about the original MJ-12 documents and speculates on their authenticity. There's no doubt that Tim Good is the source, as the writer states the documents were provided by Good and contains quotes from Good stating he believes them to be genuine (there's also a plug for Good's book).

Good goes on to state that his source of the documents was an 'American' with 'close connections to the intelligence community'.

Given all of the above, I still think it was American intelligence who created the original MJ 12 documents (I just wish Good would reveal his source!)